Gender Psychology: A Random Thought

So, I think we can all agree that transgenderism is a thing. My question here is, if we as a global society were to stop differentiating so much between masculine and feminine traits, would this still be the case?

Transgenderism is not solely a matter of cultural/social influences - one's biology plays a role too, the extent of which we are still figuring out. It is much like the spectrum of sexuality where it would be silly to isolate it to one contributor. On that basis alone, no, transgenderism will still be around regardless of how gender roles are relaxed. You'd likely be looking at a more updated definition.

While I am not entirely aware of the specifics, I know that there has been increased focus on the physiology of the brain and how there are indeed 'male' and 'female' brains. Whether or not they should be classed as such is something I'm not particularly interested in getting into yet, but the point is that as time goes by, there is increasing evidence that our biology has a large role to play in many examples of being trans. I can only imagine that how we view sexual characteristics of the body will be reviewed by society at large in time as well.

But that's not really what I'm getting at - the point is that there are many differing levels of being trans. Some consider it a rebellion against defined cultural and societal norms, some are 'pushed' into their identity via gender dysphoria, some simply wish to live as they please in the clothing or body that they want. These are not the only reasons someone may find themselves moving along the gender spectrum, though. It doesn't even mean being confined to one gender, or any, but I don't really care to get bogged down in the specifics too heavily. That's for someone who cares more about defining all the varieties in play than I do.

I can only guess that relaxing gender roles would increase examples of transgenderism, but moreso as a point of expression in a freer society than as a point of defining oneself against a social or political backdrop, as seems to be the implication in the opening post. I can only imagine that those who suffer from dysphoria would increase in number, but more because of increased insight into what it means to have the body that doesn't match with your brain, regardless of how gender roles are taken apart and/or reorganised over the years.

I think you have a rather poor question, but the discussion itself is worthwhile.

So from what I've gathered, under most circumstances, a fetus develops with hormones that matches its physical gender. When the child grows up, their thoughts and feelings match those of their physical gender.

Then, in the cases of trans people, their physical bodies do not match the gender they associate with mentally (Probably hormones), and so they don't feel right in their own bodies. I don't know why they develop with non-matching hormones and bodies, and I'm sure there is plenty of research being done into that.

So it seems that gender is really beyond physical, and seems to be purely a mental thing. I'm not sure how anyone can really say there's no differences in gender. Even if the physical body doesn't matter, the mind certainly matters. If there's nothing different between genders than a bunch of hormones and chemicals, that's still a difference.

I don't really care either way, if someone wants to look like they really feel, then so be it. :D

I think there is a difference between biologically being more masculine or feminine in appearance/behavior, and wanting to change your biological sex. Transgenderism is a mess that ignores the biology bit and takes a drastic step in trying to change the way they appear to solve a mental issue. Because of its promotion in the mass media, many impressionable people (and most importantly children) are coming to believe that they should surgically alter their sex in order to solve their problems of not being traditionally masculine or feminine. The problem with this is that they will always be their birth sex, regardless of whether they get surgery or use hormones, because they cannot change their cellular structure significantly enough. In the past, a lot of these people would just be masculine lesbians or feminine gays and learn to be happy with their lot.

I think as masculine and feminine gender roles become more relaxed (although the opposite seems to be happening), there will be less transgenderism because of what I discussed.

Powerserge said:

I think there is a difference between biologically being more masculine or feminine in appearance/behavior, and wanting to change your biological sex.

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"The day after Thanksgiving is, in my opinion, the biggest shopping day of the year." - Peggy Hill

Transgenderism is a mess that ignores the biology bit and takes a drastic step in trying to change the way they appear to solve a mental issue.

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I mean, kind of the whole thing with many trans people is that they are reacting because of their biology - we are still exploring just how much impact biology and physiology have on transgenderism, as there's input from hormones and the brain that we still don't fully understand. Most likely a lot more biological issues I am ignorant of as well. But I am not one to get bogged down in reducing transgenderism to biology - you can read my delightfully written and informative post above!
Also, gender dysphoria is a recognised issue - not all trans people go through gender dysphoria, and some have varying degrees of it, but it is a recognised problem that does affect the lives of many and cannot simply be resolved by a) ignoring their body or b) conforming to what others expect of them.

Because of its promotion in the mass media, many impressionable people (and most importantly children) are coming to believe that they should surgically alter their sex in order to solve their problems of not being traditionally masculine or feminine.

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It's kinda as if a wider and freer understanding of gender, as is natural with social liberalisation, has resulted in greater self-understanding for many. And indeed, this understanding has provided an answer for many people who didn't know how to articulate their feelings and what they've felt inside! Now, as for children, that is entirely up to the parents and how they want to deal with that. If they believe/support their child, and have the resources, they'll be in contact with a doctor who will know far more than you or I about what is right for the child's wellbeing when gender issues are involved. They could even just decide to let things, you know, run their course and see what happens. If not, the child will grow up and formulate their own plan in life.

Promoting less restrictive ideals on gender is not a bad thing, like, at all.

The problem with this is that they will always be their birth sex, regardless of whether they get surgery or use hormones, because they cannot change their cellular structure significantly enough. In the past, a lot of these people would just be masculine lesbians or feminine gays and learn to be happy with their lot.

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I am pretty certain that the only people who genuinely care about the cellular structure of trans people are a) doctors who rightfully need that information for medical treatments and b) people who are searching for more and more reason to justify their transphobia. I genuinely cannot think of one person in the trans community who feels incomplete or whatever because their body has the incorrect karyotypes or some shit. That may simply be anecdotal, but I mean... Peggy, really.

Next, transgenderism is not a modern invention or whatever. The definition? Of course. Our understanding of gender? Naturally going to be different compared to 50, 100, 1000 years ago and so forth. But it is woefully naive to think transgenderism solely a product of modern times. We can stretch back to Elagabalus if you want a real throwback to historical talk about gender transgression. As for the comment about masc lesbians and femme gays... I'm quite content to just let that sentence rest and let it speak for itself.

I think as masculine and feminine gender roles become more relaxed (although the opposite seems to be happening), there will be less transgenderism because of what I discussed.

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Your whole post seems to have been 'the rise of transgenderism is TOO MUCH' so I'm not quite sure where you got the conclusion that it will decrease in the future, but good on you for surprising me.

I don't know, but I feel like de-emphasizing the role of gender would have a net positive effect on a lot of things and I feel like this could be one of them. I think that gender roles can have a large effect on people's minds and that the feeling of being out of place can sometimes lead them to do drastic things that they may end up regretting and that they can't take back. Maybe if we didn't emphasize gender so much, people could just be themselves and not feel so pressured into having to identify themselves as male or female.

I think there's a possibility for a counter-intuitive kind of push back if we stop gendering traits. If all things lose any association with a particular gender then a person who, for some of the reasons already outlined above, feels they have pressure to be or express themselves as a particular gender could be met with resistance. As in "Why do you keep insisting on saying you're xxx? We're past gender now." Similar to how the discussion of racism and that of a post-racial society, though I wouldn't care to say how similar. I'm sure there are better analogies.

I'm not saying this is any reason to stick with current gender roles and such, just that it's something to watch out for. People love to declare victory when they're nowhere near the finish line.

I try to understand, but I can't bring myself to comprehend transgenderism in any way other than calling it a mental disorder.

I don't believe that you have to look anywhere beyond basic biology - you have XX or XY.

Being male or female is not a social construct, whereas gender roles are, and I don't think gender roles will ever go away, simply due to human nature. I can't post links yet, but just look at the gender ratio for nurses, elementary teachers, computer programmers, etc.

This starts to go into different topics, but I really don't care that much about what people do. My issues comes in with children permanently changing their bodies, people with penises being allowed to go into the restroom with young girls, and when the government pays for surgeries and such because somebody "doesn't feel right" or "feels out of place."

I think, with as far as we have come as a society, we have to acknowledge that matters of gender are vastly more complicated than matters of sex and that there are a lot of factors involved in making us who we are - biological and psychological ones.

I think that gender roles are a plague upon society that we do need to actively fight against - equally for the sake of everyone. There's so many complex factors involved in gender psychology that I highly doubt one change would actually be the end of transgenderism (which is fine, obviously). I do think though, that the elimination of gender roles from our society would go a long way to making people feel more comfortable in themselves and that's still a worthy cause in my opinion.

gimmepie said:

I think that gender roles are a plague upon society that we do need to actively fight against - equally for the sake of everyone. There's so many complex factors involved in gender psychology that I highly doubt one change would actually be the end of transgenderism (which is fine, obviously). I do think though, that the elimination of gender roles from our society would go a long way to making people feel more comfortable in themselves and that's still a worthy cause in my opinion.

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I think you're right that abolishing them would be good for everyone, but gender roles aren't really related to people being transgender in any tangible way. I don't think people discover themselves by having the realisation dawn on them that they'd always wanted to make a pot roast while their spouse was out doing a hard day's work down at the plant.

It's more going to make just people in general more comfortable, by removing useless social expectations/biases

Also as a note for the future:"transgenderism" isn't really a great term to use, it's kind of like saying "negroes" or referring to gay people as "homosexuals" and it has all the negative social context that goes with those, it's also a little clunky textually.

It's not really a slur or something people will jump on you for or anything, just something to keep in mind that it's not really something people use outside of anti-trans circles. Obviously i'm no expert on the subject and can't talk for transgender people, that's just what i know and have heard about the term

Aliencommander1245 said:

I think you're right that abolishing them would be good for everyone, but gender roles aren't really related to people being transgender in any tangible way. I don't think people discover themselves by having the realisation dawn on them that they'd always wanted to make a pot roast while their spouse was out doing a hard day's work down at the plant.

It's more going to make just people in general more comfortable, by removing useless social expectations/biases

Also as a note for the future:"transgenderism" isn't really a great term to use, it's kind of like saying "negroes" or referring to gay people as "homosexuals" and it has all the negative social context that goes with those, it's also a little clunky textually.

It's not really a slur or something people will jump on you for or anything, just something to keep in mind that it's not really something people use outside of anti-trans circles. Obviously i'm no expert on the subject and can't talk for transgender people, that's just what i know and have heard about the term

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I'm not looking to offend anyone or anything there, whoops. But, isn't it literally the scientific term?

gimmepie said:

I'm not looking to offend anyone or anything there, whoops. But, isn't it literally the scientific term?

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I think the scientific term is to just use transgender as an adjective, which is also the colloquial usage of it

It might've been used like that at one point but, like with the other terms i used as examples it's fallen out of use

gimmepie said:

I think, with as far as we have come as a society, we have to acknowledge that matters of gender are vastly more complicated than matters of sex and that there are a lot of factors involved in making us who we are - biological and psychological ones.

I think that gender roles are a plague upon society that we do need to actively fight against - equally for the sake of everyone. There's so many complex factors involved in gender psychology that I highly doubt one change would actually be the end of transgenderism (which is fine, obviously). I do think though, that the elimination of gender roles from our society would go a long way to making people feel more comfortable in themselves and that's still a worthy cause in my opinion.

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Being uncomfortable makes people grow. (useless philosophical belief for this conversation) To add on a little bit, society tries to convince people that it's a bad thing to struggle or be uncomfortable. It drives me crazy.

More on the main point of your post, I don't disagree with you saying that gender roles are an issue, however I think that they're impossible to get rid of. Regardless of how society is, I think males and females will always have their own tendencies. Males tend to biologically be bigger and stronger than women, so more males will tend to be involved with jobs that require heavy lifting.

I take that back, I lied about my comments on being comfortable being useless. In fact, if people want gender roles to be eliminated, it has to start with people who are willing to be uncomfortable doing something that they want to do. If women feel too intimidated to become a mechanic or computer programmer, that's her fault. It's not because of some psychological block that society has placed, but because she's too afraid. Same thing for men who want to become nurses, secretaries, elementary school teachers, etc.

ImLethe said:

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The reason that those people are afraid is because of the expectations society has for people of a certain sex. I do agree though, that the more people who just do what they want anyway, the less that fear will pervade our society. We're starting to stray into a different topic now though.

ImLethe said:

If women feel too intimidated to become a mechanic or computer programmer, that's her fault. It's not because of some psychological block that society has placed, but because she's too afraid. Same thing for men who want to become nurses, secretaries, elementary school teachers, etc.

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I get that this is straying into a very different topic, but the societal barriers of entry onto fields like STEM for women is a very real thing?

Realistically, if there isn't any kind of inherent societal biases against going into those fields- what could there possibly be for them to be "afraid of"?

While it's true that there are some (biological) differences between males and females, there is also a lot of stuff that is attached to a person's sex for no real reason, and sometimes even the things with any actual basis are taken to an extreme. On top of this, there is a lot of pressure placed on individuals by society to conform to all these things, even though there doesn't seem to be any benefit in doing so.

It is also true that nothing is going to change if people don't take the plunge, so to speak, and go against the grain, but I think that it's also necessary that people on the other side try to meet halfway.

Look, I am no expert on this stuff but here is my two cents: a person has two genders, the birth gender, and the gender they decide on in the future.

gimmepie said:

So, I think we can all agree that transgenderism is a thing.

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You shouldn't assume this and speak for everyone. I disagree with that.

Enpatsu Shakugan said:

You shouldn't assume this and speak for everyone. I disagree with that.

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I assume I can speak for everyone with any knowledge of modern psychology or who has met a transgender person and say that transgenderism is a thing.

My mistake.

gimmepie said:

I assume I can speak for everyone with any knowledge of modern psychology or who has met a transgender person and say that transgenderism is a thing.

My mistake.

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More like you can assume for anyone just as conceited as you who shares your own narrow worldview and nothing else.

My mistake.

You need to realize that there will always be people who don't share your worldview, and you shouldn't insult and/or speak for them. Not so fun, is it?