Affirmative Action

Im writing a paper on affirmative action for my English class and I got to wondering. What is your opinion on affirmative action? I think its racist. Does anyone disagree?

It's a form of racism, but AA is about balance.

It's well known that people of other skin colors are discriminated against. Although I think AA is a load of ****, I can see that it is a attempt to make sure that those discriminated against have the same opportunities, or options, as those that are not discriminated against.

I see the point, agree that it is good in theory, but in practice it's actually promoting more hate and weakening the country as a whole.

I think the whole idea of schools needing diversity to be good is a crock. I think they should give people a leg up based on poverty not race.

Mr. X said:

It's a form of racism, but AA is about balance.

It's well known that people of other skin colors are discriminated against. Although I think AA is a load of ****, I can see that it is a attempt to make sure that those discriminated against have the same opportunities, or options, as those that are not discriminated against.

I see the point, agree that it is good in theory, but in practice it's actually promoting more hate and weakening the country as a whole.

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I'll agree with you that many of the people that support AA have good intentions, but discriminating the other way around in order to try and balance things out is still racism and is unacceptable, in my opinion.

Are you all under the mistaken assumptions that:

1. Affirmative action only relates to race
2. It helps all minorities and hurts majorities across-the-board
3. It is always about quotas?

Because all of your replies seem to make these assumptions and none of the 3 are true in all situations. It's a sign of little to no research when you make those assumptions.

Race, color, and nationality is what AA originally related to, and although it has expanded since then, these are still the most effected. It was soon after expanded to account for gender. Also, AA was ment to be a way to force compliance with the Civil Rights act, and when you think about this what is the first thing that comes to mind? Race. Getting equal rights for all Races.

Anyway, think about this. You see a person. Whats the first thing you notice about them? Skin color/nationalty. I see a black man I either think African male, or black man (depending on how my day has been.) instead of man black, or male African.

Affirmative action is, generally, stated to assist those of other skin colors/races because this is, usually, the first way that we identify other people.

Affirmative action effects more then just race, yes, but the majority of people are going to say that it is related to the race of a person, as this is (usually) the first factor that we use when identifying other people.

Edit - Also, in the past, quota's have been a part of AA. The, supposed, existance of them is why we had Hopwood V. Texas.

Racism is treating a race or group differently based off of their race, negative or not. If you in any way take notice of a person's color/race and treat them differently for them, you are being racist. No exceptions.

I'm sure that Affirmative Action has good intentions, but it's still a form of racism. I had to actually look up what that was by the way... I feel dumb...

The ideal world would be one where being black, female, dem/rep/green/whatever, too small or atheist wouldn't disqualify you from getting a job unrelated to those factors- just your ability. But, since discrimination exists, I think that enforcing an opposite discrimination to balance things out is the less bad option. And since you can't possibly force employers to not notice someone's age, gender or colour (as opposed to their ideas), quotas are the only way I can think of right now to make sure that happens.

Anyway, education though is the way to go, and AA should be lifted as soon as people are mature enough not to discriminate others just because of external factors.

Mr. X said:

Race, color, and nationality is what AA originally related to, and although it has expanded since then, these are still the most effected. It was soon after expanded to account for gender. Also, AA was ment to be a way to force compliance with the Civil Rights act, and when you think about this what is the first thing that comes to mind? Race. Getting equal rights for all Races.

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If you're going to form an opinion on something, please have more than "this is the first thing that comes to mind so this is what I'm going to assume".

Edit - Also, in the past, quota's have been a part of AA. The, supposed, existance of them is why we had Hopwood V. Texas.

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Yes, in the past. That's why the assumption that quotas are the only way AA is done now is completely false and means that people are arguing from what they think it is, not what it actually is. You can't possibly argue that people are arguing from a well-researched and informed standpoint if they're unaware that quotas are illegal in the US.

Brock, living in a "post-racial" world is a nice ideal, but we're not there yet. We still live in a world where people choose not to hire minorities based on their race or choose not to hire trans people based on their trans status or choose not to hire women based on their gender. When you constantly argue "POST-RACIAL SOCIETY STOP TALKING ABOUT RACE", you are actually enabling people that are still racist right now, because you're ignoring their racist acts because you don't want to talk about racism and think it's over. It's far from over and ignoring everything related to race is not the way to fix it. If MLK had just ignored racial issues where would we be today?

Coming from South Africa, which pretty much started AA, it is in my opinion (In South Africa at least) quite racsist, as buisnesses only want to hire Africans. There is another movement called BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) which is pretty similar. I was offered a job recently but was then turned down by the boss as two black guys had enquired before but were turned down as they had no computer experience and barely knew english. They threatened to Burn the offices down if I got the job, so I got turned down on the basis that the guys buisness was at stake. It is pretty bad here as it is difficult for white people to find jobs these days as companies prefer to use AA.

P.S Sorry if my wording is a little bad, I'm feeling a little lightheaded.

Toujours said:

If you're going to form an opinion on something, please have more than "this is the first thing that comes to mind so this is what I'm going to assume".

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Ive been reading on Affirmative Action for a while actually. Ive read about Hopwood, and Bakke, Gratz v Bollinger, and plenty of other cases and Ive looked into the arguments for and against affirmative action, Im not just making assumptions.

Yes, in the past. That's why the assumption that quotas are the only way AA is done now is completely false and means that people are arguing from what they think it is, not what it actually is.

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Quotas were pronounced unconstitutional a while back but people still automatically give minorities extra points on college applications and if there is a more competent white person with seniority at a workplace and a newer less competent minority they will layoff the white person before the minority to give their workplace diversity. Thats not right. White people that work hard to have a good gpa and high test scores lose out on college admission to minorities with lower scores that often times cant make it in the college. Minorities, especially the ones that wouldnt have made it in without affirmative action, have a much higher dropout rate than whites. Also, Im pretty sure AA also applies to historically black colleges so for those replace the word "white" with black and the word "minorities" with whites. Though I guess they are the minorities in that situation.

Brock, living in a "post-racial" world is a nice ideal, but we're not there yet. We still live in a world where people choose not to hire minorities based on their race or choose not to hire trans people based on their trans status or choose not to hire women based on their gender. When you constantly argue "POST-RACIAL SOCIETY STOP TALKING ABOUT RACE", you are actually enabling people that are still racist right now, because you're ignoring their racist acts because you don't want to talk about racism and think it's over. It's far from over and ignoring everything related to race is not the way to fix it. If MLK had just ignored racial issues where would we be today?

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We arent there partially because of programs like affirmative action. Our society is about as unracist as its going to get as long as the races stay as different as they are. We will never become a post racial society if our government isnt even color blind. I dont see racist acts going on. I think its rare in this day and age for someone to be denied a job just because of the color of their skin. People should be hired based on competence not because the employer is trying to achieve some bureaucrat's idea of the ideal racial balance.

AChipOffTheOldBrock said:

Quotas were pronounced unconstitutional a while back but people still automatically give minorities extra points on college applications and if there is a more competent white person with seniority at a workplace and a newer less competent minority they will layoff the white person before the minority to give their workplace diversity.

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[citation needed]

Seriously dude, if you're going to make massive claims such as that, you really really need to back yourself up. Just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is.

Thats not right. White people that work hard to have a good gpa and high test scores lose out on college admission to minorities with lower scores that often times cant make it in the college. Minorities, especially the ones that wouldnt have made it in without affirmative action, have a much higher dropout rate than whites. Also, Im pretty sure AA also applies to historically black colleges so for those replace the word "white" with black and the word "minorities" with whites. Though I guess they are the minorities in that situation.

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Once again, [citation needed].

You realize that college admissions factors in much more than academic scores, right? They factor in if you've ever been employed, your leadership experience outside of school, your extracurriculars, what they're losing in their graduating class that they need in the new one (a good soccer player, 3 more tuba players, etc). Where is your "evidence" that minorities who are accepted are worse in all of these factors that go into who gets into schools? Do you realize that every top 20 school could let in a class of all valedictorians and chooses not to?

We arent there partially because of programs like affirmative action. Our society is about as unracist as its going to get as long as the races stay as different as they are. We will never become a post racial society if our government isnt even color blind. I dont see racist acts going on. I think its rare in this day and age for someone to be denied a job just because of the color of their skin. People should be hired based on competence not because the employer is trying to achieve some bureaucrat's idea of the ideal racial balance.

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Stop saying what you "think" and start researching. The plural of anecdote is not data. You are privileged to not be "seeing" racism. I don't get harassed on the street, that doesn't mean that I assume it's not a problem for a large portion of women in the United States. You have a really big problem of withdrawing inside your own mind, and discounting research in favor of your own opinions. If you only care about your own opinions, then you might as well stop posting.

Ignoring racist actions will not stop racist actions. Ignoring racist actions and not trying to correct them will just allow people to be racist without any sort of redress for the action. The world is not colorblind.

Toujours said:

[citation needed]

Seriously dude, if you're going to make massive claims such as that, you really really need to back yourself up. Just because you think something is true doesn't mean it is.



Once again, [citation needed].

You realize that college admissions factors in much more than academic scores, right? They factor in if you've ever been employed, your leadership experience outside of school, your extracurriculars, what they're losing in their graduating class that they need in the new one (a good soccer player, 3 more tuba players, etc). Where is your "evidence" that minorities who are accepted are worse in all of these factors that go into who gets into schools? Do you realize that every top 20 school could let in a class of all valedictorians and chooses not to?



Stop saying what you "think" and start researching. The plural of anecdote is not data. You are privileged to not be "seeing" racism. I don't get harassed on the street, that doesn't mean that I assume it's not a problem for a large portion of women in the United States. You have a really big problem of withdrawing inside your own mind, and discounting research in favor of your own opinions. If you only care about your own opinions, then you might as well stop posting.

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McPherson, Stephanie. The Bakke Case and the Affirmative Action Debate. Berkley Heights: Enslow Publishers, 2005.

Bam. MLA format and everythang. Cite so hard mother****ers wanna fine me.

Ignoring racist actions will not stop racist actions. Ignoring racist actions and not trying to correct them will just allow people to be racist without any sort of redress for the action. The world is not colorblind.

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Could you provide a citation for this? If you only care about your own opinions, then you might as well stop posting. lol.

AChipOffTheOldBrock said:

McPherson, Stephanie. The Bakke Case and the Affirmative Action Debate. Berkley Heights: Enslow Publishers, 2005.

Bam. MLA format and everythang. Cite so hard mother****ers wanna fine me.

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So you're claiming that book tells you how every university deals with their own personal admissions process and how race-based applications work everywhere in the country? Lol. Just because you used a book to form an opinion doesn't mean that book has the facts to back up the massive claims you're making. Where in that book does it tell you both how every single school deals with admissions and also has dropout rates specifically for minorities that were "affected" by affirmative action - which to you seems to be everyone whose academic achievements weren't the reason they were admitted.

Could you provide a citation for this? If you only care about your own opinions, then you might as well stop posting. lol.

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Obviously you didn't understand what I meant by that. That's okay, you'll get it next time. /patpat

I notice how you ignored the rest of my post. That's cute.

Toujours said:

So you're claiming that book tells you how every university deals with their own personal admissions process and how race-based applications work everywhere in the country? Lol. Just because you used a book to form an opinion doesn't mean that book has the facts to back up the massive claims you're making. Where in that book does it tell you both how every single school deals with admissions and also has dropout rates specifically for minorities that were "affected" by affirmative action - which to you seems to be everyone whose academic achievements weren't the reason they were admitted.

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I dont believe I said every university in the country treats affirmative action the same way. It refers to specific examples of affirmative action at certain schools and it has several statistics about dropouts for minorities and those whose academic talent didnt get them into the school.

Obviously you didn't understand what I meant by that. That's okay, you'll get it next time. /patpat

I notice how you ignored the rest of my post. That's cute.

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Whats not to get? And what part did I ignore?

AChipOffTheOldBrock said:

I dont believe I said every university in the country treats affirmative action the same way. It refers to specific examples of affirmative action at certain schools and it has several statistics about dropouts for minorities and those whose academic talent didnt get them into the school.

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Yes you did. I quote:

AChipOffTheOldBrock said:

people still automatically give minorities extra points on college applications

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Considering how tangled and opaque the application process is, and how many people, white or otherwise, get into school with lower than the "average" test scores, I find it very hard to believe that that's how affirmative actions is implemented, and I find it hard to believe that your book on court cases has a detailed description on how affirmative action is implemented on college applications.

Whats not to get? And what part did I ignore?

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Toujours said:

You realize that college admissions factors in much more than academic scores, right? They factor in if you've ever been employed, your leadership experience outside of school, your extracurriculars, what they're losing in their graduating class that they need in the new one (a good soccer player, 3 more tuba players, etc). Where is your "evidence" that minorities who are accepted are worse in all of these factors that go into who gets into schools? Do you realize that every top 20 school could let in a class of all valedictorians and chooses not to?

Click to expand...

You are privileged to not be "seeing" racism. I don't get harassed on the street, that doesn't mean that I assume it's not a problem for a large portion of women in the United States.

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What you didn't get is the point I was making is your posts all over OCD, not merely here. You tend to say "well I don't see this so the study must be wrong" or "well I don't think racism is a problem because I'm not racist so we should ignore racists". You take your own opinions and put them above both the experiences of people that have experienced racism, and the people that are doing scientific studies on racism. It's understandable that it's hard to feel that your own experiences are very minor in the large scheme of things, especially as a majority - majorities were raised implicitly being shown and believing that their opinions are the most important thing, above the opinions of everyone else, and it takes eyes trained to see privilege to see the reality of the situation. But it's an immature viewpoint that means you have a great deal of growing to do.

Let me try to explain what Brock was saying but in a way that's fact. I've seen it first hand because I went to that college and not returning after what they done to me. The whole minorities thing is just a bunch of bs. I live in Chicago, not the heart of Chicago but 10 miles from Chicago so I know first hand about minorities. What colleges do in the city's or even the suburbs or 60 miles away where there's community Colleges. The colleges send pelgrants to all the minorities (even if they dropped out of school). The minorities then take advantage of the pelgrant and live in free housing. I don't mind that they get free housing it's what they do down here that bugs me.

What the minorities do is they come down here and blow off school. They don't even try, they skip class 2 our of 3 days a week, the show up at the school but they got other plans than class. They go around looking for college students to sell they're drugs to. All the minoirites up here in the colleges are gangsters and hustlers. I've seen a few minoirites not like that at all but a majority of them are. Kishwaukee College is 75%+ African American. The ones that come down here to sell they're drugs for they're gang and what not fail out of class. What do you know.. They're back next semester. Why? They failed every class at the bottom of the list and didn't even drop the classes. So why are they back?

While whites in this school are getting ****ed over by the corrupt colleges the minoirites are getting another waver. I passed all my classes except for 1. That one teacher I had her for 2 semester straight. Both times she screwed me. She's sexist and only women passed her class. She's no longer a teacher there cos she got fired cos I reported her ass and so did every other person so ya. The staff at the college themselves are corrupt as well. They got a whole police force up there at all times cos of all the drug deals. Every hour I seen the minorities trying to sell they're dope, they didn't get in trouble. But if a white boy tried to sell his dope he got cuffed up and sent to the police station. I seen this stuff with my own 2 eyes on numerous occasions. You can call me racist all you want but your only fooling yourself.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Your entire post is suspect because colleges don't give out Pell Grants. Those are directly from the federal government and are based entirely 100% on your income level, they have nothing to do with minorities. Since you were so completely off-base and wrong on that, the rest of your post can't be trusted as accurate. Did you do "research" as well?

F1refly said:

Coming from South Africa, which pretty much started AA, it is in my opinion (In South Africa at least) quite racsist, as buisnesses only want to hire Africans. There is another movement called BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) which is pretty similar. I was offered a job recently but was then turned down by the boss as two black guys had enquired before but were turned down as they had no computer experience and barely knew english. They threatened to Burn the offices down if I got the job, so I got turned down on the basis that the guys buisness was at stake. It is pretty bad here as it is difficult for white people to find jobs these days as companies prefer to use AA.

P.S Sorry if my wording is a little bad, I'm feeling a little lightheaded.

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Ive seen this happen quite a bit for jobs in Canada too. I think it is the same thing.. the concept if it ia great.. but in practice it isnt so good. I think employers should take the same sort of teat that jurors do to teat for discrimination. If they sont pass it they cant hire someone thmselves and either need to go through something else. I dunno.. just a suggestion. Just hope that in a few years none of this eill need to be of concern anymore and everyone can be accepting of each other.

Wouldn't it be really easy to claim to not be racist in a test and then only hire white people, or men, or whatever the case is? Kind of like people that say "I'm not racist, but I do think black people naturally are more violent than white people". Even outside of something overt like that, it doesn't solve the problem of unconscious racism - a boss who claims not to be racist, but has an unconsciously negative opinion of someone who applies for a job and is black, over a person who applies for the same job and is white, causing a hiring bias that wouldn't really come out in a test of overt racism. :/