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wolf

Age 24
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11.8 Years
This is simply a hangout for battlers of PC. :) Enjoy laid-back discussion of battling, team building, etc. PvP or PvE, competitive or casual, it all fits here. You also may talk about topics not related to battling, but please keep it in moderation.

wolf

Age 24
Male
Seen 19 Hours Ago
Posted 1 Week Ago
8,223 posts
11.8 Years
To get the conversation started, any thoughts regarding the recent ban on Swagger? Do you think it was needed? Charizard also recently made it to #1 in OU usage. Do you think it's deserving of that title? Or perhaps more deserving of Ubers, hohoho.
.

Nah

Age 27
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Posted 11 Hours Ago
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6.6 Years
Oh, so they finally finished suspect testing that? Did they just ban the move Swagger, or did they ban it in conjunction with something else (ie. Prankster)?


As for Charizard hitting #1 usage in OU, its not surprising. People have a nostalgic love for it, and it finally doesn't suck because of its Mega Evos (particulary because it has 2 of 'em).


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Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

The Undisputed Era

Shock the System.

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In the Flax Fields.
Seen 49 Minutes Ago
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9.1 Years
I know a lot of people used to be really annoyed with Liepard's T-Wave+Swagger combination but I don't think swagger is too much of an OP move to warrant needing a ban. Not many people run it on anything else and you wouldn't intentionally swagger a physical sweeper because you know how pokemon loves it's hax. All in all I don't feel it being banned was necessary at all.

As for Charizard-X, I've said it a million times now and it needs moving to ubers, I know stealth rock and or toxic can destroy a DD Charizard-X but before toxic finally takes down a Charizard-X it could have taken out 2-3 of your pokemon, I use it in my OU team and there have been times where it looks like I've been beaten hard but then once you get 1 DD up you can potentially get a sweep going and I am sure the people who run Roost Charizard-X's would do a lot better than I do.

dreyko

Isolated System.

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Maryland
Seen November 10th, 2014
Posted October 22nd, 2014
270 posts
9.1 Years
This is my first time hearing that Swagger was recently banned. Im not really sure why, other than the fact that it is prety annoying to lose to hax (even though it does happen).

I am also not surprised that Charizard has become so used in OU because both of its mega evo's are pretty viable right now.
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Anti

return of the king

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Kobe's Reality
Seen February 8th, 2020
Posted October 18th, 2019
Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/

Also, just going to throw out there that Clefable is amazing with pretty much any set you run!
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Nah

Age 27
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6.6 Years
Swagger wasn't banned because it's overpowered, it was banned because it introduces an unneeded amount of luck into the game. While I feel like a complex ban would have been more appropriate (Prankster+Swagger), the strong anti-ban sentiment really confuses me. It's not like it's going to change battles where people are actually trying to win with skill (translation: no one uses Swagger unless they're deliberately trying to hax you with SwagPlay since it's an awful tactic otherwise), so I don't really see what the big deal is lol. Banning something like Will-O-Miss would be a lot more groundbreaking because it would actually have a serious impact on the metagame because it's a deterrent for physical sweepers etc. on skill-based teams.

Anyway, Charizard is pretty good, mostly because it's very unpredictable--will it be DD Charizard-X, wallbreaker Charizard-Y, or defensive Charizard-X with the crippling Will-O-Wisp? I pack ScarfChomp in large part to deal well with the first two while praying it's not the defensive Charizard-X variant. Charizard is definitely not Uber though, call me when it gets a better Speed tier and can deal with Stealth Rock. Amazing Pokemon, but it's not broken. Much like Mega Gyarados (an all-around beast that utterly dismantles offense), Charizard has many assets but can also be stopped if you prepare for it well. That's not as hard as it sometimes seems. Personally, I find Charizard-Y to be a massive pain though. :/

The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...


I agree with you that a more complex ban would've been better, but Smogon seems strangely reluctant to implement complex bans. And I also agree with you about Charizard.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Anti

return of the king

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Kobe's Reality
Seen February 8th, 2020
Posted October 18th, 2019
what set do you like on clefable?
I've been running Bold maxHP/maxDef (more or less, there's an amount of Spd I don't remember for Aeg or something like that) with Moonblast/Flamethrower/CM/[email protected] I find her use to be situational against offense, mainly acting as a lure for Ferrothorn and keeping Dragons from going wild. It also absorbs Will-O-Wisps and is the perfect switch into Conkeldurr. It's much better against stall, where it can usually get a sweep in once you remove their Heatran and Mega Venusaur. It's by no means an auto-win, but my team probably beats stall three out of four times, and Clefable (along with Thundurus with Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Psychic/[email protected]) is the reason why probably.

I would probably say it's not its best set though--I like offensive Magic Guard, but it misses its Leftovers surprisingly often and is juuuuust a bit too weak statistically to be a gen three Suicune/Snorlax-like threat vs. offense. Clefable is just an amazing Pokemon. I guess that's what good typing will do for you. I find the defensive sets to be very good Pokemon when I play vs. them.

The strong anti-ban sentiment comes mainly from the people who think, for some strange reason, that Smogon is forcing people to play a certain way. That's obviously not true, but people get strange ideas sometimes...
Yeah, anti-Smogon sentiment is pretty common. It's like the anti-vaccination movement of the Pokemon world. :/ (Not that Smogon isn't frustrating sometimes, or even often, but people get so worked up about it lol.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Chocolate™

Awesome Dragon

Male
PC.
Seen May 16th, 2019
Posted June 6th, 2015
666 posts
8.4 Years
I'm actually quite happy with the Swagger ban. I have terrible luck and Swagger makes it even worse. I know that i was not completely necessary to ban Swagger, I still feel good about it. I also kept one being wrecked by a Klefki with T-Wave, Swagger, Substitute and Foul Play.

I'm not surprised that Charizard has snatched that #1 spot. It's extremely unpredictable. There have been so many times where I've gone for the E-quake on a Charizard predicting it to be Charizard X but later realizing that it's Y. Bulk Charizard X is a pain to deal with.

Clefable is also an extremely good pokemon at this stage. I've never used it but would probably go for the same set as Anti. The thing is most people forget to carry Poison or steel types in their team and get utterly annihilated by this mon.

Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?

ZettaSlowbro

Veteran

Age 26
Male
Jax, Fl
Seen September 16th, 2014
Posted April 12th, 2014
45 posts
7.7 Years
Any thoughts on not-OU but usable pokemon introduce in XY?
Slurpuff with Belly Drum and Unburden is pretty solid if it can set up, and I think it'll end up landing in the UU tier somewhere.

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dreyko

Isolated System.

Male
Maryland
Seen November 10th, 2014
Posted October 22nd, 2014
270 posts
9.1 Years
Slurpuff is decently bulky as well so i could easily see it having a good support/stall role as well as an aggresive set-up role on a team.

Also i just got an Aerodactyl with five perfect IVs, buuuut speed is the odd one out. Regardless, i am still pretty happy about it :D
I may be bad, but i'm perfectly good at it.
3DS FC: 4012-3881-3445

Dark Azelf

Your crown awaits you, chosen one.....

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13 Years
Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.
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Chocolate™

Awesome Dragon

Male
PC.
Seen May 16th, 2019
Posted June 6th, 2015
666 posts
8.4 Years
I agree with Dark Azelf. Slurpuff shouldn't be used in a support rule. I like Belly Drum Slurpuff more. It just destroys stuff.

I like Clawitzer a lot. It has a great variety of moves and access to U-Turn. It also has great Sp Atck and a great ability. the only problem is it's speed. I think i would probably be in UU except for the fact that Blastoise had already proved itself as the foremost Mega Launcher user and that it has access Rapid Spin.

Nah

Age 27
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Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 11 Hours Ago
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6.6 Years
Apparently Smogon is now considering suspect testing Baton Pass.

Thoughts?
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen February 8th, 2020
Posted October 18th, 2019
Apparently Smogon is now considering suspect testing Baton Pass.

Thoughts?
They absolutely should suspect test it and I have little doubt that the result would be a well-deserved complex ban.

I think everyone can agree (or, good lord, I hope so) that no one wants a metagame where the game is over before it starts, which is to say that the team matchup more than individual play determines outcomes consistently. I realize that with so many Pokemon, you're sometimes going to have rough matchups, and that's just a part of life with team building. However, that variances comes with individual teams--not entire playstyles. How in the world is that healthy for the metagame?

And much like Swagger, what exactly is lost from testing/severely limiting BP chain teams? I know the stubbornly principled will (and have) insisted that people need to stop whining, need to adapt or change their teams to better prepare, that BP teams are easy to beat, that Smogon is ban-happy. To those people: OK, "you're right," now that you've asserted your moral superiority, can we remove such a fundamentally uncompetitive playstyle from the game? It's not like banning Swagger was any restriction on people who, you know, are actually trying to play the game, and BP is exactly the same. I know the opportunity to use the BP issue as a pretense to complain about Smogon or banning or whatever is tempting, but BP is uncompetitive and unhealthy.

(Not to get ahead of myself, but it should be a complex ban. Banning Baton Pass as a move would be unnecessary and a little too restrictive, however minor.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

PlatinumDude

Nyeh?

Age 26
Male
Canada
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12,958 posts
9.9 Years
Idk why you'd use Slurpuff in a support role. Its inferior to Florges and Sylveon and even in lower tiers Aromatisse has superior bulk, is immune to Taunt (and Encore etc), has better attacking presence and passes bigger Wishes.


I also think Dragalgae is very underated. It has some great resistances, awesome bulk, decent support movepool and Adaptability just makes it massacre basically near everything on the offense. That and its not total fairy bait like most dragons lol.
Just putting that out there, but Adaptability Dragalge isn't available yet. Right now, it's still mediocre.

Anyway, regarding the Baton Pass suspect testing, I'm kind of glad they're doing it, since I tend to lose to dedicated Baton Pass teams.

Nah

Age 27
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Posted 11 Hours Ago
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6.6 Years
I'm not sure what's so bad about Baton Pass teams, but if they do decide to ban it, a complex ban is best. Unfortunately, that's probably not gonna happen; Smogon doesn't like to do the complex bans for some reason.


Also, why the ban now? What's so different this gen that warrants a suspect test for BP? If its that bad, why wasn't it banned last gen?
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Dark Azelf

Your crown awaits you, chosen one.....

Male
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13 Years
Yeah banning baton pass as a whole seems silly.

Its easy to stop even when you dont really prepare for it. :/ Espeon is their only defense against a fast Taunt and they have little way in effect of stopping offensive juggernauts like Charizard, Garchomp etc. Trick/Encore also ruins them. You also have various Phazing methods.

The only thing i can think of that influence it in the ban camps favor would be the crit nerf, but i digress.

I think something like "Baton (P)Ass clause: No more than <insert arbitrary number less than 6> pokes per team with the move Baton Pass" would be better than a flat out ban.

Removing short BP chains (for example: Quiver Dance Venomoth ----> Heatran) as well as full long BP chain teams really seems well a little....restrictive and frankly, much.
† Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Yesterday holds memories in time
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Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen February 8th, 2020
Posted October 18th, 2019
I certainly hope no one simply bans BP altogether, which is to say that they ban the move. That's overly restrictive.

I don't think "it's easy to stop" is a good argument. Yeah, I win many games against BP too, but I don't see how that's really relevant when this is a question of competitiveness rather than brokenness. Even so, I do want to point out that if you're dismissing it so easily, you've probably never played against a good player using it? I realize this might seem contradictory to my "no skill" assertion, but I don't think so--you have to be a D+ level player or higher to win with BP (not even close to true of offense, balance, or even stall), but being an A-level player sure doesn't hurt.

Anyway, just figured I'd reiterate the "why should anyone care if full BP chains get nerfed?" point. It's not like it adds to the metagame, and I get the principle behind "just prepare for it better," but when stall starts running things like Haze Quagsire (lol) to beat it, it's probably better to just remove the playstyle because it's not like those I listed earlier. If people started calling to remove Chansey or Clefable or something because of stall, I'd be right there with you, but BP doesn't add anything to the metagame being a cynical, robotic, and downright obnoxious playstyle. I agree that it's restrictive, any ban is, but I can't see how that restriction is harmful really.

Also you is mentioning the crit nerf is telling as it acknowledges how that's how many teams have to beat the chains if the opponent isn't totally inept.

ilu bb <3
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Dark Azelf

Your crown awaits you, chosen one.....

Male
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13 Years
I have played against good players using it. Both with stall and (shock) offense.

Ironically the offensive team i was using i just threw random crap together i didnt even prepare for it. Baton Pass simple cant set up on powerful sweepers. Baton Pass cant switch into anything remotely powerful ranging from things like Greninja to mega pinsir to Garchomp to Charizard-X/Y. :/

Stall is stall and i dont think i need to point out how that went. I didnt use Haze btw lol.
† Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Yesterday holds memories in time
Remember me to the one who lives there
She once was a true love of mine †

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen February 8th, 2020
Posted October 18th, 2019
Anecdotal evidence is not very compelling. Unless BP magically becomes competitive in the sense that the battle isn't determined 98% of the time by team matchup, I just don't see the relevance of "Charizard-Y beats BP!" (And let's be real: if BP was as easy to beat as you're implying, no one would care about it.)
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Nah

Age 27
Female
Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 11 Hours Ago
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6.6 Years
I don't think that Baton Pass needs a ban that bad. It's not like BP teams are really common.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."