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Atheist Alliance

Misheard Whisper

[b][color=#FF0000]I[/color] [color=#FF7F00]also[/c
3,488
Posts
15
Years
I'll join because, as Hemingway said, 'every thinking man is an atheist'. Also because I'm cool like that.

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Not really, but that's not to say I haven't tried. I was raised Catholic, started to doubt, realised it was all rubbish, and decided I was an atheist. A while ago, I had a minor crisis when I realised I was accepting atheism as blindly as I'd accepted Catholicism all my life, so I panicked a bit, read a few books from both sides of the debate, then realised I had nothing to worry about. So now I'm set, regardless of how people may try to sway me.
 

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font
5,176
Posts
18
Years
  • Age 27
  • Seen Feb 13, 2019
Atheistic Overlord? Nice oxymoron there :P

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Nope. Ever since I went from Humanist/Agnostic to all out Atheist I've basically associate religion with delusion.
 

Samurai X

La Dolce Vita
1,637
Posts
18
Years
Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Not since becoming one. I had doubts on both sides before believing in what I do now but not since then.

Do any of you guys get annoyed by people who confuse atheists with people who say god can't exist and don't realize that we just believe god doesn't exist?

I don't simply because most of the time they're just ignorant on atheism but understand when I explain even if they don't agree.

Also has anyone seen the BBC series The Atheism Tapes ? It's a pretty good little series. I especially enjoyed the Steven Weinberg tape.
 
4
Posts
12
Years
Kindly sign me up in this atheist alliance. I am an atheist because I believe in science, logic, and proof. There are no scientific proofs that god exists and if god do exists, then, why are his promises still not yet fulfilled? Some of them are fulfilled but all of those fulfilled are continuous from the start. If god exists, then, why are there many religions popping out? If there's a god, he would only let one religion exist, his religion and no other than that. By the way, I am a member of the Philippine Atheists and Agnostic Society (PATAS), an atheistic group in the Philippines.

What's your view on same-sex marriage?

Well, I support marriage equality. What's wrong with that? And by the way, if the couple loves each other, why not marry them. It's their human right.

What's your view on abortion?

I am pro-abortion. If releasing other baby would affect the health of the woman, why not just abort the baby?

What's your view on death penalty?

I'm OK with death penalty. If someone really deserves it, then he/she should be given a death penalty. Reclusión perpetua is not enough especially if the crime committed by the criminal is horrible crime against the law. I'm just against death penalty if the reason for death penalty is related with religion or because of being LGBT.
 

FrostPheonix

Eternity.
449
Posts
13
Years
Just clarifying, I'm not atheist. despite me being on the member list. If thats a requirement, take me off. I'm just here cuz I luv debating with you guys ^^
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
I apologise for my absence here, I have been horribly busy with real life stuff that has hopefully gone away now lol. Anyway welcome to Raizhu, Misheard Whisper and Mr. Tommy!

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Nope. The second I became an atheist it was such a freeing moment that I've never looked back. In that moment, so many things I'd been questioning about the world clicked immediately into place and suddenly it all made sense: there is no God and there never was. I finally felt at liberty to live the way I wanted without fear of retribution. I think any person who feels that and then looks back is a fool. Since then, I've of course read up on it and only managed to confirm my beliefs with the logic of some of the greatest minds of our time.

Just clarifying, I'm not atheist. despite me being on the member list. If thats a requirement, take me off. I'm just here cuz I luv debating with you guys ^^

Of course it's not a requirement! All are welcome :)
 

FrostPheonix

Eternity.
449
Posts
13
Years
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.
 

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font
5,176
Posts
18
Years
  • Age 27
  • Seen Feb 13, 2019
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.

Evolution is not something you believe in. Evolution is a theory strongly supported by research in biology. If you believe evolution is hogwash, say why. Or is it that you don't have the sufficient understanding nor prudence to do so? Allow me to enlighten you:

Humans don't come from monkeys. The theory does imply that humans and primates have a common ancestor that adapted to different surroundings and genetic conditions over time to give rise to each respective species.

The reason why religious people are so eager to dismiss this theory might be because it is very hard for them to conceive the massive time scales that are demanded by the theory of evolution. The time required for minor changes in a species can be of about 500 years if you consider a species with lifetimes such as 20 years to reproduce. This means about 25 generations of genetic variation and mutation can occur among, say 2 offspring per each of such an animal. Simple math concludes that there will be 2^25 of the species in the end, and over 500 years the family tree will involve sum(i=1 to 25, 2^i) descendants of an original animal. Statistically, that would mean that the final descendants shouldn't even have a single chromosome from this original parent unless the number of chromosomes of this animal was sufficiently large.

Now, not all of these organisms will survive. Specific combinations and mutations will cut the final sum by a bit, as some of the organisms won't reproduce at all or even reproduce more than once. Some organisms might also mate within this family tree. A fair approximation for the final number of organisms that lived within these 500 years would be more in the range of sum(i=1 to 20) or sum(i=1 to 23). Do you know what the value of the former is?

2,097,150 organisms

Within 500 years, a single parent's traits are mutated, matched, and successful through 2 million organisms. No doubt some in tree breeding definitely happened, but most of such is already accounted for in approximation under the necessary assumption that the species has sufficient initial numbers. Furthermore, this result is nicer than the perfect theoretical sum(i=1 to 25, 2^i), which is, by the way, 67,108,862 organisms

And that's just for 500 years. Imagine the scale of change within 5,000, or even 5 million years, which is also nothing compared to the geological age of the earth, 4,500,000,000 years.

But you can't even conceive such age, because nobody can even conceive life beyond a normal lifespan of 90 years.

Natural selection is a much stronger theory--pretty much a fact-- than Evolution, since it is observable with current organisms. But if you truly think about the timescales and consistencies, Evolution is a necessary by-product of natural selection.
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
To my mind, not believing in evolution (or by extension, natural selection) is the same as saying "I don't believe in science". The idea that a person could completely disregard something that years and years of research has gone into proving... it seems more than a little ignorant. Going into the science of it myself would be redundant since AK47 has just done it better than I ever could, but if you're choosing to believe in a God the existence of whom is essentially (and conveniently) impossible to prove instead of a scientific theory where you can be shown tactile evidence... I don't understand that.
 

Zet

7,690
Posts
16
Years
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.
I'm a Catholic but I accept evolution. Saying it is hogwash when there's is evidence to strongly support it, and there being genetic links is just ignorance and only makes you look like an idiot.
 

Flowerchild

fleeting assembly
8,709
Posts
13
Years
Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.
 

FrostPheonix

Eternity.
449
Posts
13
Years


Evolution is not something you believe in. Evolution is a theory strongly supported by research in biology. If you believe evolution is hogwash, say why. Or is it that you don't have the sufficient understanding nor prudence to do so?

To my mind, not believing in evolution (or by extension, natural selection) is the same as saying "I don't believe in science". The idea that a person could completely disregard something that years and years of research has gone into proving... it seems more than a little ignorant. Going into the science of it myself would be redundant since AK47 has just done it better than I ever could, but if you're choosing to believe in a God the existence of whom is essentially (and conveniently) impossible to prove instead of a scientific theory where you can be shown tactile evidence... I don't understand that.



I'm a Catholic but I accept evolution. Saying it is hogwash when there's is evidence to strongly support it, and there being genetic links is just ignorance and only makes you look like an idiot.


Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.


Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.


Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?
 

HarrisonH

I doubt Pokemon will be a hit
174
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15
Years
  • Age 31
  • Seen Feb 1, 2013
My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

There are many things wrong with this statement. There are an infinite number of things that aren't talked about in the Bible. That's not an argument against evolution at all.

Pretty much, if you say you don't believe in evolution because it isn't in the bible, you shouldn't EVER use electricity or anything made possible by it, eat any processed foods, drive cars, wear sunglasses, wear boots, wear clothing made of synthetic materials, etc etc. Be consistent.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.

There are many things wrong with this as well. First off is that the eubacterial flagellum, consisting of three parts ("motor", "shaft", "propeller"), has an analog in archaebacteria that consists of only two parts ("motor", "combined shaft-propeller"). So the idea of it being irreducibly complex is already bunk.

Additionally, a claim is "well if you take one part away, the rest is useless". Again, this is not entirely true of the eubacterial flagellum. The "motor" part of a eubacterial flagellum is incredibly similar to the secretion systems and other motility systems present. Again, irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is complete bunk.

If you're interested in reading more, there is a good paper on the topic here. Note that it is rather long, however.
 

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font
5,176
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18
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  • Age 27
  • Seen Feb 13, 2019
Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...
Offended by what? You provided a premise and a conclusion and we told you why it's hogwash in itself. Just a typical day for any Philosopher.

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

HarrisonH committed a fallacy Philosophers like to call the Inconsistency Ad Hominem. What you said is not refuted simply because you do other things that are not mentioned in your bible, such as browsing the internet.

Now, you argue that Evolution is not mentioned in the Bible, therefore, it's false. That's not exactly an argument that can be dealt with unless you add another premise: What exactly is false if its not in the Bible? Science? Everything? I will not say anything yet, as this is not a developed argument. And so, nobody can even say if what you said is valid or not.

The claim that God created through evolution is best described as Intelligent Design. But it would be nice if you could say why that is not true. Or at least finally say if you are in favor of Creationism and what the details of that belief are.
B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.

I haven't done much research on irreducible complexity, but the arguments do feel flimsy. For example, what does it mean for a system of parts 'to work'? Yes, if you remove a part of the system, it will probably not do the same function as before, but it can probably still function.

Evolution can definitely explain how a part that appears irreducibly complex still come about. The system might have had a different function with just slightly different parts. But a strong push or mutation can theoretically alter parts of the system to change the system itself into something irreducibly complex. This is much better explained in Richard Dawkin's (in)famous book The God Delusion. I also found a video on Youtube that uses computer technology to sort of 'evolve' clocks in a computer program, inductively proving that there can and will be missing links in the fossil record, and that most 'valid' irreducibly complex arguments are flawed as they don't rely on the definition of life [E.g. the watch and the watchmaker]


Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?

The most logical thing to believe, as Atheists, would be that there was a first event--the cause of the Big Bang-- and nothing more. Physics and Mathematics took their place as the rulers of the universe and decided for our physical existence. By consequence, we should also believe that consciousness is nothing more than an effect of the functions of our brain, and can be explained someday. We essentially have no free will and are at the mercy of the laws of Quantum Mechanics.

The depressing but scientifically plausible nature of our beliefs are probably why people think we're some goddamn chronically depressed masochists.
 

Phantom1

[css-div="font-size: 12px; font-variant: small-cap
1,182
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12
Years
Whoo, Phantom is late for the party.


Question PC, what do religious people say that pisses you off? There's got to be something. I know it. I can read your mind.

Seriously though, is there some argument or statement that really makes you pound a keyboard until is has the same consistency of mashed potatos?
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...
 

Phantom1

[css-div="font-size: 12px; font-variant: small-cap
1,182
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Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...

You totally know that every religious argument is better with mashed potatoes. Seriously, it is, once me and my grandfather, who is Eastern Orthodox but an amazing guy and so fun to discuss religion with, were in an agument and when things got heated he threw mashed potatoes at me, and then I threw stuffing and then more potatoes, and next thing we know the entire family is having a food fight.

And I so agree on that one. One that always gets me is the circular Bible logic, or the CHRISTIANITY IS THE ONLY RELIGION RAWWR people. Also known as those who talk as if no other religion exists or is relevant. Or ones who think they know everything and start quoting the Bible and then I counter quote and they yell at me saying I can't do that and to use my own words. Leaving me going "butbutbutbutyousaidyoubutIbutyoubut-SUCK IT".

EDIT: BIG EDIT:

Also since I joined a while ago, and I don't expect people to go that far back, here's my story:

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school since K, decided I was atheist around maybe my sophomore year of high school. A lot of crap had happened that made me question religion, and the more I questioned the less sense it made. But when I say I was Catholic, I mean it, I was an alter server, I was in the choir when I wasn't on the alter. Went to mass five times a week, (serious, every Friday with school, then two masses Saturday and two on Sunday since I was one of two altar servers) I was even a youth group leader and lead Bible classes.

I went to private catholic school since I was in kindergarten. (Graduated from a school of the LaSallian rite, taught by Christian Brothers) (graduated in 2009) Which meant I took a minimum of two theology classes a year in elementary and middle school, in high school a minimum of four (two a semester), aside from a life of religion. That's thirteen years of uniforms and cramming Christian dogma down my throat. Two relatives are priests, my grandfather is a respected member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and one of my best friends is joining the priesthood; my grandparents even run a food shelf "Trinity Mission" which I am still a part of. I was an server for twelve years, received four of the seven sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist, Confession, and, sadly, Confirmation). I also took a theology class in college as well as three philisophy classes... I've also taken a World Religions course (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Judaism)((that one was actually taught at my Catholic high school... they removed the class soon after... guess why)) and a in-depth class on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My move to atheism was hardly an uneducatd decision.

I had always doubted. The more classes and the more I learned the more I started to question. It started when my mother got cancer when I was in 7th grade. I thought what God would do this to someone? It's a question that I understand is asked quite often. The Church had no answer than "God's will". I believe that I was agnostic for most of my life, unsure of what to believe. The more questions, what I've seen, what I've lived through, they make no sense in a world with a loving God. I've lost friends to war, I saw the towers fall, my mom almost died, my best friends mom as well. I volunteer freaking everywhere I tried other religions, most in study, a few by practice but none made any sense. The last straw was when my church's priest was diagnosed with dementia and lost his mind, and the new priest was amazingly corrupt, and an alcholic to boot. The old priest was a good man, a man worthy of respect. Now he doesn't know who he is anymore. The last mass I ever served was one he attended nine months after being diagnosed. He couldn't follow mass anymore. He would stand, and yell at the nurse with him that he wanted to leave because he was scared. He became aggitated and hit her. I almost cried when I saw this. I was really close to that priest and to see him like this. Such a good man and a man of great faith, how could his god allow that? And this new priest was power hungry. Within two years he basically took over the Diocese, becoming the main priest for four churches. He was cruel and cared only for himself. Not only that but he told me, after twelve, almost thirteen years of service, that I could no longer be an alter server (note for those who aren't Catholic, there are ADULT servers) because I was female.

All of this lead to me deciding that there was no god, and yet I still am researching religion because I find it interesting.
 
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Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font
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  • Seen Feb 13, 2019
Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.
 

Phantom1

[css-div="font-size: 12px; font-variant: small-cap
1,182
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Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.

I agree, indoctrination is an evil, evil thing. Blind faith is stupid and dangerous as I've learned. But it was the fact that when I was in 8th grade and was tutoring a second grader through a buddy system, and it was 9/11 and we had a special ceremony and the kid didn't understand what a Muslim was. Conversation was like this.

"What's a Muslim?"
"It's a person who follows Islam, another religion."
"What do you mean another religion?"
"Uh, well there are lots of other religions, Islam is one of them, the people who follow it are called Muslims."
"Why are there other religions?"
"Uh-crap-uh, well there are people who don't believe in God the same way we do and they do it differently. Some don't even believe in the same one. Some even have more than one."
"That's stupid; we should all worship the same one and then this wouldn't have happened."
"Uh, maybe, but everyone can believe what they want to, or they were raised differently."
"Why wouldn't everyone believe the same thing?"
"Because people are different from each other, and they learned differently."
"What are the other religions?"
"Uh there's lots, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists..."
"I still think we should all worship the same religion, that way there won't be any more bad stuff."
"Sure, maybe, yeah I guess...? Hey let's go ask your teacher what's next for today, huh? MRS. OLSON!!!"


Indoctrination is messed up, but the kid had the right idea, how many wars and conflicts are attributed to religion as a main factor? Smart kid, he was.
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
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13
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Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?
 
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