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Debate The 2nd Amendment needs to go

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  #151    
Old December 6th, 2017 (12:31 PM).
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    Quote: Well, those would have to be taken care of first of course. Naturally it would be a bad idea for your nation to enter a gun free future otherwise.

    Seems like most anti-gun politicians don't understand that for some reason. Once we start solving the crime epidemic and reforming the disciplinary system of the police then we can start reducing firearm presence. (Well, except for in bear or rattlesnake country. Still going to need them in those territories.)
    No more paid vacations or desk duty for killing unarmed citizens. What kind of punishment is that?

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      #152    
    Old December 6th, 2017 (12:45 PM). Edited December 6th, 2017 by LDSman.
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      “Unarmed citizen” is only valid if the person is (a) completely incapable of killing you with their bare hands and (b) not trying to convince you that they are an armed threat.
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        #153    
      Old December 9th, 2017 (10:51 AM).
      GalladeAlba GalladeAlba is offline
         
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        Very few people buy guns legally with criminal intent, most are bought for decent reasons ie hunting, self defense and sometimes just for collecting. Introducing gun control will mostly affect only decent people, it won't affect criminals as much as you'd like to think.
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          #154    
        Old December 10th, 2017 (1:36 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by GalladeAlba View Post
          Very few people buy guns legally with criminal intent, most are bought for decent reasons ie hunting, self defense and sometimes just for collecting. Introducing gun control will mostly affect only decent people, it won't affect criminals as much as you'd like to think.
          Sure, it could be possible to have guns for hunting and stuff. But there would indeed be lots of paperwork involved and you would absolutely have to convince the authorities that you're using them for their intended purpose and not for shooting other people. And yes, your government should definitely do all that they can to ensure criminals can't get access to illegal guns.
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            #155    
          Old December 10th, 2017 (6:44 PM).
          LDSman LDSman is offline
             
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
            Sure, it could be possible to have guns for hunting and stuff. But there would indeed be lots of paperwork involved and you would absolutely have to convince the authorities that you're using them for their intended purpose and not for shooting other people. And yes, your government should definitely do all that they can to ensure criminals can't get access to illegal guns.
            Why more paperwork? How do you convince someone that you won’t do something in the future?

            Get the govt to enforce the laws already on the books.
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              #156    
            Old December 11th, 2017 (7:21 AM).
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              https://newrepublic.com/article/146190/brutal-origins-gun-rights

              Just putting this here in case it can contribute to the discussion at hand...
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                #157    
              Old December 11th, 2017 (10:56 AM).
              LDSman LDSman is offline
                 
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post

                Just putting this here in case it can contribute to the discussion at hand...
                Don't see how. It's just an attempt to rewrite history and blame an object for people's bad behavior while ignoring when the object was used to help people.
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                  #158    
                Old December 11th, 2017 (1:36 PM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
                Data isn’t hard to find. Google “accidental gun deaths declining” to see any number of sites discussing it.
                I’m too new to post links.
                You should have enough posts now in order to be able to post links, give it a try now.
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                  #159    
                Old December 11th, 2017 (6:37 PM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by GalladeAlba View Post
                Very few people buy guns legally with criminal intent, most are bought for decent reasons ie hunting, self defense and sometimes just for collecting. Introducing gun control will mostly affect only decent people, it won't affect criminals as much as you'd like to think.
                The majority of guns used in mass shootings (and I think shootings in general) were purchased legally. I've already posted a source explaining this. It's common practice in organised crime for someone to legally purchase a gun and then illegally pass it on to someone else for use (also explained in a source). A lot of the people who go nuts and shoot up a shopping centre are good people up to that point too. Even good people can snap and do terrible things and the Vegas shooting proves that the psych evaluations don't do an accurate enough job of measuring things like that.

                Stricter gun control isn't just going to affect decent people who have to criminal intentions and even those decent people can snap and hurt themselves or others. Gun control is absolutely a positive thing.


                As for jd, sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet. Your post was really detailed so I want to make sure I do that effort justice when I respond.
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                  #160    
                Old December 11th, 2017 (9:15 PM).
                LDSman LDSman is offline
                   
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Nah View Post
                  You should have enough posts now in order to be able to post links, give it a try now.
                  Links for Accidental gun deaths declining.

                  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/30/as-gun-sales-rise-accidental-gun-deaths-drop-to-record-levels-report-says.html

                  Quote:
                  There were 489 unintentional firearms-related fatalities during that time period, the lowest total since record-keeping began in 1903, accounting for less than 1 percent of accident deaths. This decrease, which was the largest percentage decline of any category cited in the NSC’s report, came in a year that saw record-high firearm sales.
                  http://www.guns.com/2017/05/17/report-accidental-gun-deaths-hit-all-time-low-in-2015/

                  Quote:
                  Report findings indicate choking deaths occur twice as often as accidental discharges while drowning is six times more likely. The chances of dying during a firearm assault are one in 370, according to the NSC, or three times less likely as dying after a fall.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
                  The majority of guns used in mass shootings (and I think shootings in general) were purchased legally.
                  Source? Someone committing a straw purchase to get firearms for someone ineligible to buy guns is NOT a legal purchase. Throw them in jail as an accessory.

                  Quote:
                  I've already posted a source explaining this. It's common practice in organised crime for someone to legally purchase a gun and then illegally pass it on to someone else for use (also explained in a source).
                  I'm not seeing the source?

                  Quote:
                  A lot of the people who go nuts and shoot up a shopping centre are good people up to that point too.
                  Most people don't just snap and start killing people out of the blow. There are almost always warning signs that people dismiss.

                  Quote:
                  Even good people can snap and do terrible things and the Vegas shooting proves that the psych evaluations don't do an accurate enough job of measuring things like that.
                  When did the Vegas shooter have a psych exam? Have they determined a cause at this point? He might not have been crazy.

                  Quote:
                  Stricter gun control isn't just going to affect decent people who have to criminal intentions and even those decent people can snap and hurt themselves or others.
                  So you want to restrict people's freedom based on a "might happen"?

                  Quote:
                  Gun control is absolutely a positive thing.
                  Up to a point. Background checks are fine. Convincing people to freely train and practice is fine. Past that is debatable.
                  [/QUOTE]

                  A lot of gun control measures have simply failed to work, which is why some people now advocate for bans and reasonable restrictions.

                  Which means I get to provide this link.

                  https://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-repost.html

                  Why should I give up my rights in the vain hope that someone else doesn't commit a crime?
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                    #161    
                  Old December 11th, 2017 (11:48 PM).
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                    Listen, I have been over this numerous times and have discussed this at length wirh many people over many different walks of life. Fire fighters, Military, Police, Teachers etc.

                    Most, if not all, seemed to have an amiable position with some well laid facts and interesting ideas. However, when up against just raw facts the FBI comes up like a brick wall.

                    For the most part people tend to be reasonable and accept the facts that our DOJ, BJS and FBI provide for free and without any motivational bias.

                    I have sourced many times the exact page of their expanded data table breaking down firearm homicides by type. Rifles are extremely low on the totem pole in regards to deaths.

                    This table does not break down who actually commits the crime, however, I have posted and sourced the FBI and the BJS who estimate that 80% of all firearm homicides are commited by felons/gang members (both of which are disallowed access to firearms).

                    Regardless of any popular news handle or headline, shootings such as these *when compared to everyday life and functionality* are extremely rare and extremely difficult to prevent in many instances.

                    I'm sorry, but I do not agree with the notion that an extremely small percentage group should determine the larger group as a whole.

                    This is the same logic that 2nd amendment opponents on the left love to use, and have used most recently on the travel ban.

                    Whether or not you agree with the travel ban I'm sure you've heard it said 'you're more likely to be killed by 'X' than a terrorist' or something along those lines so you shouldn't worry about letting those people in.

                    Now, I believe I have made my intentions and stance perfectly clear here:

                    I am all for the 2nd amendment and I am for a certain amount of control (felons: no guns). I do not agree with shootings at all, but in order to influence policy you must utilize facts, data, statistical analysis and other hard truths to justify your positions. I have seen many times where politicians argue without facts on their side.

                    You'll also notice the sick practice of the 'bandwagon' effect where a certain group will lobby to make themselves more appealing or more popular after an incident involving multiple deaths.

                    If you argue for the sake of argument and without the numbers, rules, laws and facts at your side you should at least have enough intellectual integrity to note that you will have to find some facts to support your own claims.

                    Rules and laws aren't made on the backs of emotion and shouldn't be.

                    The courts should be impartial and I've seen it more often from the left that they appeal to that emotional factor to try and force the laws to change based on what *could* happen and not based on "Here's what is happening and here is what has been happening. Here's a chart".

                    Now, that's not to say that the right doesn't have it's losers either.

                    The NRA puts out some really stupid promos that would have been better to just keep quiet. Make no mistake though, the claim of 'they want to take your guns!' is not entirely baseless as we've even broached this topic in this thread multiple times.

                    There are indeed politicians who would like to take them all with nothing in return.

                    Both the left and the right have their losers, but in the case of the left they typically show up with polls and not actual cold data. I don't think polls should influence the discussion.
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                      #162    
                    Old January 12th, 2018 (11:21 PM).
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                      Regulations which it seems people want to constantly reduce and which appear to have been ignored in the case of more than 1 mentally unstable individual legally getting a gun they should never have had.

                      You know perfectly well the US gun culture is not benign, it is about waving it about and showing it off like it's a toy or status symbol rather than a lethal weapon. You get these Americans with frankly dangerous dreams of going rambo against the government or another group of people and some who actually follow through with it. It's this almost worship of guns and the belief that the right to own a gun does not automatically come with the responsibilities of a gun owner.

                      The most guns with criminals / most restrictions thing is a case of poor analysis. In most of these areas the restrictions were put in place precisely because of the number of guns and you have to ask yourself just how much worse it would be if they were even easier to get. I also REALLY hate the whole "you shouldn't have restrictions on guns because criminals will get them anyway". Let me highlight why this is so stupid, you shouldn't have laws against theft because a criminal will steal anyway. That is how psyducking idiotic that argument is.

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                        #163    
                      Old January 13th, 2018 (10:54 AM).
                      LDSman LDSman is offline
                         
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                        Regulations which it seems people want to constantly reduce and which appear to have been ignored in the case of more than 1 mentally unstable individual legally getting a gun they should never have had.
                        the issue is that the govt is ignoring the regulations. Most of the recent failures are due to the govt failing to provide the disqualifying info. Why have the regulations if they aren’t being used?

                        Quote:
                        You know perfectly well the US gun culture is not benign, it is about waving it about and showing it off like it's a toy or status symbol rather than a lethal weapon.
                        . Most of the gun owners I know would disagree. Yes, there are a few that act that way.

                        Quote:
                        You get these Americans with frankly dangerous dreams of going rambo against the government or another group of people and some who actually follow through with it.
                        . You don’t need a gun to be dangerous.

                        Quote:
                        It's this almost worship of guns and the belief that the right to own a gun does not automatically come with the responsibilities of a gun owner.
                        . Most gun owners don’t act that way.

                        Quote:
                        The most guns with criminals / most restrictions thing is a case of poor analysis. In most of these areas the restrictions were put in place precisely because of the number of guns and you have to ask yourself just how much worse it would be if they were even easier to get.
                        . I’d have to know what area, what restrictions were being discussed. Plus it could be circular logic. “Guns are too easy to get. Gun restrictions get passed. Law abiding can’t get guns for self defense. Criminals get guns illegally already and aren’t affected. Crime rate rises. See? It would be so much worse if we didn’t have these gun laws!” Kind of ignores the fact that the gun laws could have caused the crime rate to rise. No armed victims to worry about.
                        Quote:
                        I also REALLY hate the whole "you shouldn't have restrictions on guns because criminals will get them anyway". Let me highlight why this is so stupid, you shouldn't have laws against theft because a criminal will steal anyway. That is how psyducking idiotic that argument is.

                        - A poster on DeviantART
                        That’s a straw man argument. Theft laws are about actions. Don’t steal, not affected by the law. Gun restriction laws are about controlling people through stupid and arbitrary laws. How much ammo a gun holds, what gun I can own, where I can carry it, how I can carry it. None of these laws are about actions and do nothing but affect the law-abiding and make them into more victims.
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                          #164    
                        Old January 13th, 2018 (3:11 PM). Edited January 13th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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                          Quote:
                          You know perfectly well the US gun culture is not benign, it is about waving it about and showing it off like it's a toy or status symbol rather than a lethal weapon.
                          A little stereotypical? I also find it hilarious you think you know our culture when you live in "Finland".

                          Quote:
                          You get these Americans with frankly dangerous dreams of going rambo against the government or another group of people and some who actually follow through with it. It's this almost worship of guns and the belief that the right to own a gun does not automatically come with the responsibilities of a gun owner.
                          What?? That's like saying if you own a fast car you're a racer and or drives around town like you're on the race track, which isn't the case. I'd say a vast majority of gun owners are not like this, especially law abiding legal gun owners. Most legal gun owners are actually resposible people with no criminal intents, it's the idiots and mentally unstable people that set a bad example. The ones that act immature like you are stating are usually idiots, and shouldn't own a gun. Not for others safety, but for their own safety as well. Cheddar Bob would be an perfect example. If you know the reference you know what I mean. Taking a movie scene may not be the best course of action, but there are people like that that own guns.

                          I'm sorry, but legal or illegal, no gun owner is dumb enough to run up on a government official or politician, they're surrounded by a highly ranked militia and snipers and if they are stupid enough, they are psychotic and suicidal at that point. Also, how can you not blame the American people for wanting to revolt against the system? You seem to be oblivious to the US's system.
                          Not that it matters anyways, guns or no guns, the US military is too overpowered to overthrow them anyways.
                          But my question to you is, is gun rights not a US right stated in our Amendments? Or do you not know of the US and our rights? Reason I ask.. Is if one Amendment is stripped, there is no longer a "Bill of Rights" or "US Constitution". With one missing, the whole establisment would be destroyed.

                          Quote:
                          The most guns with criminals / most restrictions thing is a case of poor analysis. In most of these areas the restrictions were put in place precisely because of the number of guns and you have to ask yourself just how much worse it would be if they were even easier to get. I also REALLY hate the whole "you shouldn't have restrictions on guns because criminals will get them anyway". Let me highlight why this is so stupid, you shouldn't have laws against theft because a criminal will steal anyway. That is how ****ing idiotic that argument is.
                          It's also an idiotic argument to say gun control will work in the US, knowing you don't live in the US therefore you know very little about our culture and what we believe in, or better yet how the average American lives their daily lives. What you see on the news about our country, isn't what our country's really about. The war on drugs here is working splendid btw, we got dope fiends overdosing everywhere and war in the streets over drugs, money, and turf. Also, these people are criminal orginazations, not your average American citizens. Why is that so hard to grasp? Why is is that when "criminals will get them anyways" bother you so much? You hate it as an argument so much because it's an argument that you can't prove wrong, making your argument invalid if you can't argue with logic and reason.
                          If America were to ban guns. All it would be is be another profit scheme like the "war on drugs" which would be implemented into the prison system to make money off those that get caught with a firearm, or a tactic to take control of the population with less of a hassle. Call it a conspiracy all you want, but they have a track record and it's not a good one. This is the US system we're talking about, not the Euoropean, not the Australian, THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICAS. They're not hard to figure out, if money or more control is in their agenda, they'll push it. Power and money is their motive.
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                            #165    
                          Old January 13th, 2018 (10:55 PM). Edited January 14th, 2018 by gimmepie.
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                            I suppose it's true that much of what I do know about America comes from Movies and such. And the fact that many mass shootings do break the news barrier over here, it definitely made me want to see it go. No but or ifs about it. I suppose it might have begun during that Boston Marathon incident but it's the Las Vegas one that definitely solidified my belief. Does that make me evil? Does that even make EU evil for not allowing the right to possess guns like you do?
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                              #166    
                            Old January 14th, 2018 (10:48 AM). Edited January 14th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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                              Can't really watch movies based in America and expect it to be the way America is. Yes, there a lots of movies that can give you a general idea, but a movies for entertainment, unless it's a documentary which then it's biased opinions to fit their agenda. I wouldn't watch movies based in Europe and expect Europe to be that way.

                              Well to answer your question, as much as America isn't the "land of the free", when it comes to the US Constitution, we generally have that freedom stated, with loopholes here and there. Take the 13th Amendment for example. It clearly states that no US citizen can be a slave, UNLESS A CRIME THROUGH CONVICTION, this is where the prison system comes in. I used this as an example, because law abiding citizens have these rights, but when you become a "felon" you lose many civil rights, and right to bear arms is the first on the list. As in law abiding citizens, we don't have dreams of murdering in mass, most have guns for many reasons (to kill a human isn't one) so why take a right away that was given to them if they aren't a threat to someone else or themselves? In America, a majority of legal gun owners, you can trust with a gun. They're not bad people like the liberal media tries to portray us to be. We go to work, have families to support, we're just your typical normal human being, that happens to possess a firearm but don't worry. A majority of us that have them (legally) are aware of proper gun safety, know not to wave it around and point it at people, etc. A criminal with a firearm, with criminal intent.. That's not your average law abiding US citizen.

                              But it doesn't make you or even Europe evil, no. We just have differing opinions is all. You and your people aren't gunning down innocent civilians in villages or enslaving citizens like in the Middle East, THATS EVIL. Most Middle Eastern countries have heavy gun control as well. So basically the only people with guns in these areas, are military and terrorists groups and we all know what these terrorist groups are about.. The Middle East with it's strict gun laws, is the most dangerous region in the world. Thankfully Europe isn't a 3rd world country, or you'd most likely be in big trouble. Any country that's 3rd world status, has an extremely high crime rate and terrorist groups that kill for whatever reason they please; and most if not all have gun control.
                              With that being said, America doing the same, wouldn't surprise me if they were to ban guns. Not to mention the revolt that would happen.
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                                #167    
                              Old January 16th, 2018 (1:58 AM).
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                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                                I suppose it's true that much of what I do know about America comes from Movies and such. And the fact that many mass shootings do break the news barrier over here, it definitely made me want to see it go. No but or ifs about it. I suppose it might have begun during that Boston Marathon incident but it's the Las Vegas one that definitely solidified my belief. Does that make me evil? Does that even make EU evil for not allowing the right to possess guns like you do?
                                I was going to make a long post but no, I don't want to do that.

                                See: FBI expanded data table, which has been posted above.
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                                  #168    
                                Old January 22nd, 2018 (11:03 AM).
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                                  Guys do you ever get the feeling that we are just pushing the blame on guns to cover up our poor social policies, mabye we need to make it seem like you don’t need to kill with guns. Look,the stats goes that most school shootings are due to bullying, and the others are crazy people. Are guns to blame, or how people choose to use them, that’s my view.
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                                    #169    
                                  Old January 22nd, 2018 (1:54 PM).
                                  LDSman LDSman is offline
                                     
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                                    Originally Posted by Mr. Showdown View Post
                                    Guys do you ever get the feeling that we are just pushing the blame on guns to cover up our poor social policies, mabye we need to make it seem like you don’t need to kill with guns. Look,the stats goes that most school shootings are due to bullying, and the others are crazy people. Are guns to blame, or how people choose to use them, that’s my view.
                                    Its easier to blame guns despite gun homicides not being in the top ten causes of deaths in the US.
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