Quiji
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DP Ash wasn't "that experienced" according to you... ? We're talking about the saga where he made Top 4 at the regional League.
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[Spoilers] Should Ash have won the kalos league?
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DP Ash wasn't "that experienced" according to you... ? We're talking about the saga where he made Top 4 at the regional League.
weedle_mchairybug
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True, he did some good there by advancing in rank (certainly a whole lot better than in Hoenn where he didn't even change rank at all). Unfortunately, it's also the same region where Ash had Pikachu lose twice to Paul (and not even to his starter, either, which would have been FAR more preferable: He lost to at least one rookie Pok?mon a'la JJM and their infamous loss against Caterpie. maybe two if we count Elekid as a rookie), not to mention had Pikachu having a grossly hard time against the Gym Leaders DESPITE his beating that Regice from earlier, not to mention their winning the Battle Frontier of which each of the Brains were explicitly compared in overall strength to the Elite 4. Having Ash struggle against people he should be breezing through with Pikachu alone ESPECIALLY after his win against Brandon is just not cool at all. Though I'll give some credit: At least they didn't have the Gym Leaders losing easily to Rookies on the first try this time around.
hirokimura
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Well, Pikachu is losing against surskit in XY while he did tie with Latios in DP you know.
I mean, Ash didn't struggle as much as he did in XYZ with greninja and stuff like that. DPP wasn't that full of challenges I mean c'mon there wasn't any significative rivals besides paul who was beaten by his own pokemon.
Also, making a top doesn't make you experienced by itself, remember how Dawn made into finals in her first try at the great festival?
I mean, Ash didn't struggle as much as he did in XYZ with greninja and stuff like that. DPP wasn't that full of challenges I mean c'mon there wasn't any significative rivals besides paul who was beaten by his own pokemon.
Also, making a top doesn't make you experienced by itself, remember how Dawn made into finals in her first try at the great festival?
weedle_mchairybug
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Well, let's hope that Surskit was EXCEPTIONALLY well-trained then, because I REALLY hate it when people lose to rookies, whether it be Ash losing to a rookie or the Gym Leaders losing to such (and for the record, I count Pok?mon caught in-region as rookies). For goodness sakes, thanks to JJM losing to that Caterpie, they had a reputation in-universe and OOU of being bottom feeding trainers who were so pathetic that beating them isn't even considered a bragworthy element. What do you THINK would happen if Ash lost to rookies?
And he still struggled in DP compared to AG and Hoenn, where he practically BREEZED through the gyms (for goodness sakes, the only gym leader he had any real challenge against was Brawley).
And maybe it doesn't make you experienced automatically, but given how long he's been at the job, he most certainly came a LOT closer to being experienced with or without the rank increases (and quite frankly, since the point of his goal of becoming a Pok?mon Master pretty much requires him to actually WIN a league, he needs to do so now, we can no longer settle for rank increases).
hirokimura
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It's the leader's surskit, that one with the camera, I forgot her name :3 But well, even a well trained surskit wouldn't be as powerful as a latios (and one from the sinnoh league)
To be fair, I agree for Hoenn. Not for Kanto and Johto where he had lot of challenges like Whitney (MILTANK <3), Lt Surge (That was a pretty nice fight with lot of chara developement for pikachu),
Well, Ash was less experienced in Sinnoh than he was in Kalos, that's a fact, and indeed, In my opinion he has to actually win a league. But I guess that's why the whole concept of badges was actually banned from the anime/video game. Just because Ash can't win because of plot. I'm really frustrated about that.
To be fair, I agree for Hoenn. Not for Kanto and Johto where he had lot of challenges like Whitney (MILTANK <3), Lt Surge (That was a pretty nice fight with lot of chara developement for pikachu),
Well, Ash was less experienced in Sinnoh than he was in Kalos, that's a fact, and indeed, In my opinion he has to actually win a league. But I guess that's why the whole concept of badges was actually banned from the anime/video game. Just because Ash can't win because of plot. I'm really frustrated about that.
Magically jumped into? Did you even watch the show or even the specials for that matter? I hope you realize the reason Alain even entered the league was because of ASH requesting him to join. Magically jumping in is Tobias, Alain was an actual known character, so I don't know what you're talking about.
hirokimura
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That's not because we did see Alain in 3-4 episodes in mega evolution + 5-6 episodes from XYZ that makes it something else a random character. No character developement while there was plenty rivals through the whole show that could fulfill the winner role.
weedle_mchairybug
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I agree regarding Kanto and Johto, those gym fights WERE the best out there. At least there, the gym leaders actually WERE as skilled as their reputation claimed, and didn't either come across as incompetent or only came across as skilled at Ash's expense (Kalos was the closest it ever got since AG came about to Gym Leaders actually having their honor restored until the Kanto reunion arc).
And yeah, that got me irritated as well. It's funny, banning badges from S&M would have been a perfect excuse to actually LET Ash win a league, yet they don't do that. Heck, they don't even give him a consolation prize of actually helping build the Alola league.
CodeHelmet
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Just wanted to mention that its Viola with the Surskit. Also Alain had 4 Mega Evolution specials plus two Episodes involving him in some manner(be it battling Ash or him obtaining Badges to face Ash in Kalos League). Trevor, Tierno and Shauna had the Summer Camp(4 Episodes) with Tierno returning at least twice, Trevor at least once(forget if he returned more than that) and Shauna several times(Episode 47 where Serena catches Pancham and her first Showcase in Episode 60. Then there's Episode 90 and Master Class). While these characters were indeed around more than Alain was, you have to remember the Anime is around to promote the games(and Trevor, Tierno and Shauna are rival characters). Alain's time on screen during the Mega Evolution Episodes had him defeating tough and powerful trainers which established himself as a strong Trainer well before he meets Ash. Compare that to Tobias where he basically comes out of left field with legendaries.
Guest123_x1
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If the writers had actually allowed Ash to win the Kalos League championship, it would have been considered as him finally reaching his "goal" of becoming a Pokémon master, and then they would probably have had to replace him with a new protagonist, which would really break the flow of things more than has actually happened (not that they've kept the flow consistent over the generations - the start of the Alola region is such a big change it's essentially a reset of its own).
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Sure. Hand the show to me and I could write better than the clowns in charge of the anime.
weedle_mchairybug
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Well, technically, he'd still need to beat the Elite 4 and Champion since it was established in DP that Ash needs to do that to become a Master, or at the very least get one step closer to that goal (besides, they didn't replace Ash after winning the Orange Islands, and technically him winning the Battle Frontier would have him not even NEED to continue his journey due to him beating E4-level trainers if Scott is to be believed.).
Though even IF it does mean replacing him, I'd welcome it, largely because at least it would actually LET him succeed in his goals for once, especially considering keeping him on with Generation VII's premise being such a radical alteration for the games alone, let alone the anime which changed things even further (and the latter I'd argue was for the worse rather than for the better) that Ash being kept as a main character would be utterly pointless. At least it won't have him essentially sit on his butt and not do anything to advance his goal.
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hirokimura
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Couldn't agree more despite disagreeing with you about Alain ^^
Everyone has at least something in common right? :D
Quiji
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I disagree, kinda. I mean as far as we know winning a League doesn't automatically make someone a Pokemon Master. Ash could've just won the Kalos League and then continued his journey by setting his sights on other tournaments, such as the Champion's League thing that was mentioned in DP.
weedle_mchairybug
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I know. Too bad Masamitsu Hidaka made it pretty clear in that interview that they consider Ash winning a league at all as meaning they have to replace him at the very least, if not actually end the show altogether (despite the fact that they never replaced him, or even ended production of the overall anime for that matter, in the Orange Islands after he won a league there, or heck, even when he won Battle Frontier, which technically entailed him fighting E4-level trainers at the very least).
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In all honesty, Ash doesn't need to win the kalos league. It would just go to his head and he would be thinking he doesn't to train anymore.
An example like that is in the original Dragon Ball. Goku & Krillin sign up for the martial arts tournament and they are literally wiping everyone out. Master Roshi isn't too pleased with this, so he enters the tournament under the alias "Jackie Chun" to defeat Goku so his victory won't go to his head.
An example like that is in the original Dragon Ball. Goku & Krillin sign up for the martial arts tournament and they are literally wiping everyone out. Master Roshi isn't too pleased with this, so he enters the tournament under the alias "Jackie Chun" to defeat Goku so his victory won't go to his head.
weedle_mchairybug
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Problem is, Ash already LEARNED this lesson back when he won the Orange Islands League. Remember when Gary basically beat Pikachu in battle with Eevee? Heck, they even redid that sort of thing in the Battle Frontier where Gary Oak, again, beat Ash effortlessly (and that was despite Gary having retired from training by that point, which made even LESS sense.).
Besides, if I remember correctly, Goku and Krillin were fighting in their very first tournament when Roshi did that, while Ash in this case has already participated in no less than seven leagues (including the Orange Islands league), only one of which he actually WON.
Not to mention, at least him not needing to train would be justified if he won the league for why he's slacking off in Alola. Right now, he's pretty much slacking off despite the fact that he's still not a Pok?mon Master, all because until Episode 43, there IS no league, and he's pretty much stuck in a school environment. Is that TRULY better than him slacking off just because he won Kalos?
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