Is Ash a disappointment?

Alexander18 said:

Well i expect him to at least stay in top 2 in the future. Don't want to see him score lower than before like Unova.

Problem with Ash winning the league is that people expect to eventually beat elite four and then becoming champion. I don't like this.

I prefer that Ash keeps his top 2 rank for every other region. Just don't let him win.

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And have it be the same as Hoenn? No thanks and he doesn't have to beat the E4 after he wins the league have him lose to the first E4 and go from there.

SH60 said:

And have it be the same as Hoenn? No thanks and he doesn't have to beat the E4 after he wins the league have him lose to the first E4 and go from there.

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Yeah, agreed, and if anything, I thought that, until Unova, the results for Hoenn were the WORST turnout for Ash ever, especially considering he made zero progress with his goal. Heck, if anything, him sticking with top 2 would be even WORSE than it was with Hoenn. At least with Hoenn, one could argue that him relying solely on his Hoenn team and no reserves would have been a minor improvement. This literally would be having him stay the same rank with even LESS signs of improvement.

And that's actually exactly what I suggested. Just have Ash lose to the first Elite 4, then the next region have him lose to the second Elite 4, then the next have him lose to the third one, then the fourth next region, then beat all of them save for the Champion next region, and then have him win the championship the region after that. That would be a win-win. It would allow Ash natural progression to his goal, and at the same time, it will placate any fears of Ash coming across as too OP if he challenges the Elite 4.

SH60 said:

And have it be the same as Hoenn? No thanks and he doesn't have to beat the E4 after he wins the league have him lose to the first E4 and go from there.

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No. That won't work. It is better that Ash just stays in top 2 or top 4. He can have unofficial battles with an Elite four. Ash win mini tournaments and competitions.

Losing the league is part of the show and is a must have.

Alexander18 said:

No. That won't work. It is better that Ash just stays in top 2 or top 4. He can have unofficial battles with an Elite four. Ash win mini tournaments and competitions.

Losing the league is part of the show and is a must have.

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How will it not work tell me that your saying it but your not proving that it won't work.

SH60 said:

How will it not work tell me that your saying it but your not proving that it won't work.

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Yeah, and besides, Ash still needs to actually ACCOMPLISH his goal of becoming the World's Greatest Pok?mon Master. When a character has a goal, a mission in other words, you can't expect anything else but total completion.

I don't see the point of Ash winning a major League (I ain't counting that 99 cent store "tournament" where he beat Drake) if it doesn't immediately impact his goal. Like, it'd suck if he finally wins a major League, but then loses to the E4 right after that and has to start all over again and waste 3-4 years getting to the next League.

SH60 said:

How will it not work tell me that your saying it but your not proving that it won't work.

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Because people will then expect him to do better next but only to be disappointed when he doesn't. Ash should not move on to official elite four battles.

Alexander18 said:

Because people will then expect him to do better next but only to be disappointed when he doesn't. Ash should not move on to official elite four battles.

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Then whats the point of giving Ash the goal of becoming a pokemon master if he won't get anywhere with it?

SH60 said:

Then whats the point of giving Ash the goal of becoming a pokemon master if he won't get anywhere with it?

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He probably achieve his goal off screen after show is finished. Ash doesn't need to achieve his goal on screen.

Alexander18 said:

He probably achieve his goal off screen after show is finished. Ash doesn't need to achieve his goal on screen.

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You do know there have been MC's in anime that completed there goals right and they still had things to do. And if that happens that would be the biggest fuck you to the fans.

weedle_mchairybug said:

I can understand Battle Frontier being technically a "side win" (even though Scott made it pretty clear that, at the very least, the E4 were par with the Battle Frontier Brains in overall skill and power), but how the heck is the OI a side win? Last I checked, that's a full-fledged league. And besides, the Silver Conference wasn't even IN the games either (in GSC, we had to go to the Indigo Plateau in Kanto to challenge the league, so technically, Johto didn't even have its own league since the league we challenged was directly in Kanto), are you going to call THAT a side event due to technically being anime-only?

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Silver was in the games or at least Mount silver was, the Johto region was part of the games but it didn't have it's own Pokemon League since it did share one with Kanto.

The Orange Islands did have a Pokemon League, but it was more of a side quest.

The Battle Frontier didn't even have a Pokemon League of it's own, it was more of a place for trainers to test their skills against the Frontier Brains.

Ash character was really good in the OS, because he did improved for both regions instead of one. They should have ended the anime back during the OS era, because Ash character could have finally been put to rest.

Piii said:

Silver was in the games or at least Mount silver was, the Johto region was part of the games but it didn't have it's own Pokemon League since it did share one with Kanto.

The Orange Islands did have a Pokemon League, but it was more of a side quest.

The Battle Frontier didn't even have a Pokemon League of it's own, it was more of a place for trainers to test their skills against the Frontier Brains.

Ash character was really good in the OS, because he did improved for both regions instead of one. They should have ended the anime back during the OS era, because Ash character could have finally been put to rest.

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But will he win if that happens? If not then he would had left failing to get even close to his goal.

SH60 said:

You do know there have been MC's in anime that completed there goals right and they still had things to do. And if that happens that would be the biggest psyduck you to the fans.

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I still don't see Ash winning. It is like him owning a legendary and psuedo legendary. Very unlikely. He has a 0.1% of winning leagues, completely owning a psuedo and catching a legendary.

SH60 said:

But will he win if that happens? If not then he would had left failing to get even close to his goal.

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He did win the Orange Islands League, despite it being a filler saga.

He did beat the Battle Frontier Brains, and he was even ask to become a Frontier Brain, but he decline.

Alexander18 said:

I still don't see Ash winning. It is like him owning a legendary and psuedo legendary. Very unlikely. He has a 0.1% of winning leagues, completely owning a psuedo and catching a legendary.

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How are they even the same? All I want is to feel like hes getting some where with his goal.

Piii said:

He did win the Orange Islands League, despite it being a filler saga.

He did beat the Battle Frontier Brains, and he was even ask to become a Frontier Brain, but he decline.

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Well for even when he was a BF lvl trainer DP Ash was beaten by trainers he should be stronger than so that shows how much the anime cares about that feat.

SH60 said:

How are they even the same? All I want is to feel like hes getting some where with his goal.

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He only got top 2 once. Ash never had that before. That is good enough for a while. I think they won't change the common theme of Ash losing the league. As long as he lands in a top position then that is fine.

Alexander18 said:

He only got top 2 once. Ash never had that before. That is good enough for a while. I think they won't change the common theme of Ash losing the league. As long as he lands in a top position then that is fine.

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Doesn't matter if he got Top 2 once, he STILL needs to win. And it's not like once he wins, he must automatically cream the Elite 4 and Champion. My proposition should satiate your issues against it: Even if he wins, he can still lose against the first Elite 4, then progressively go forward increasing how many Elite 4 members get defeated by Ash each region before he eventually becomes Champion.

He probably achieve his goal off screen after show is finished. Ash doesn't need to achieve his goal on screen.

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Ah, no, considering he made VERY vocal what his goal was, he most certainly needs to accomplish his goal on-screen. The Adventure Continues style endings generally only work if the primary goal is accomplished and they like the activity that got them to the goal so much they just felt they can continue, like for example, how in Monk, Adrian Monk in the ending to the TV series continued to solve mysteries even after his primary objective, solving Trudy Monk's murder, was accomplished. And the closest they can get to having Ash actually accomplish his goal is by winning a league.

Alexander18 said:

He only got top 2 once. Ash never had that before. That is good enough for a while. I think they won't change the common theme of Ash losing the league. As long as he lands in a top position then that is fine.

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If he keeps getting the top 2 or going down a rank, Then that means he's getting no closer to his goal and that means that the whole region he went though was pointless to him, Because it didn't help him in anyway get to his goal.

SH60 said:

If he keeps getting the top 2 or going down a rank, Then that means he's getting no closer to his goal and that means that the whole region he went though was pointless to him, Because it didn't help him in anyway get to his goal.

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Not taking into account the strength of the competition and number of competitors, sure.

Frozocrone said:

Not taking into account the strength of the competition and number of competitors, sure.

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Will with how the last 3 leagues ended for Ash with him losing to BS. And for the number of competitors for a league tells me how hard the region is.