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Land of the Maple Leaf ~ Canadian Club

Cosmotone8

silhouette of the past
1,758
Posts
12
Years
Ok so it's still snowing here. 2 feet later.

Oh and this thread may be relevant to this thread: http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=298287 (If you haven't already checked it out)
That's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, forcing people to learn another language just to use basic public services? Quebec is already the reason that the rest of Canada has to learn French (no offense to those in Quebec), and that's already bad enough, but this is absurd.
 

Alakazam17

[b]Long time no see![/b]
5,641
Posts
18
Years
We don't really have to learn French, or English for that matter, though it's fun so you should try it anyway. But it seems like Francophones are more pressured into learning English. If anything that's why some want to pressure us into learning French. =/
 

Captain Gizmo

Monkey King
4,843
Posts
11
Years
You know what's worst? Is that the people that works in public transportation here can't even speak English properly for themselves. I'm not talking about everyone ofc. But you think that if you wanna work in the public transportation you should know at least English and french since it's the dominant language here, or you have to force everyone who have to take the public transportation to learn french just to buy tickets and ask for directions?
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
8,123
Posts
19
Years
Quebec is already the reason that the rest of Canada has to learn French (no offense to those in Quebec), and that's already bad enough, but this is absurd.
More like pretend to learn. We pay Quebec lip service.

Until Grade 9, my French education consisted of playing Bingo and learning about Bonhomme. I was vastly unprepared for Grade 9 French lol
 

Cherrim

PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
33,267
Posts
21
Years
Well, if you're living in an area where the primary language is French, I think it's fair to expect that your typical public worker would only know French. I'm sure there's a number you can call to get instructions for that kind of thing in English. It's not like in any other cities in Canada, any old worker will know how to answer anything in French. I mean, I think it's weird that the Premier would go on the record saying something like that instead of being all veiled and politically correct and politician-y but I don't necessarily disagree with what he's saying... but seriously, if you don't know the native language of an area, it's kind of your own fault (in my opinion) and no one should expect to be catered to. Until all of English-speaking Canada offers that kind of bilingual support, Quebec shouldn't be expected to offer it in reverse. Either everywhere does it, we don't make a big deal when Quebec doesn't do it, or we stop claiming to be a bilingual country.

I wish Canada were better at teaching the opposite language, though. I see people posting on PC from countries where English isn't their first language and even by 13 they're able to communicate quite well on English-language forums and whatnot. Most people finish the entirety of their mandatory French classes without even a basic grasp on how to speak French, at least here in Ontario, despite having to learn it from... what is it, grade 1 through 9? (I wasn't here until grade 7 so I don't know when it starts here... it doesn't even start in NS until grade 4.) :( I feel like the only reason we get by is because French and English are already somewhat close in etymology so it's easy to guess at meanings. If we had better classes and more immersion available, Canada would be closer to a legitimately bilingual country but as it is now, it's a pretty sad claim.
 
8,571
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I wish Canada were better at teaching the opposite language, though. I see people posting on PC from countries where English isn't their first language and even by 13 they're able to communicate quite well on English-language forums and whatnot. Most people finish the entirety of their mandatory French classes without even a basic grasp on how to speak French, at least here in Ontario, despite having to learn it from... what is it, grade 1 through 9? (I wasn't here until grade 7 so I don't know when it starts here... it doesn't even start in NS until grade 4.) :( I feel like the only reason we get by is because French and English are already somewhat close in etymology so it's easy to guess at meanings. If we had better classes and more immersion available, Canada would be closer to a legitimately bilingual country but as it is now, it's a pretty sad claim.
I'd have to agree with this. I know that out here in BC, people could care less about French (only 50,000 out of the 4.5 million that live here speak it fluently), so I'd say either teach it right through until graduation, or drop the Official Bilingualism nationally, and have it regulated on a provincial level. I'd prefer if we went with the first choice, though, since having taken French through grade 12, I'd at least be able to order a bus ticket in French if I had to.
 

Cherrim

PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
33,267
Posts
21
Years
I'd have to agree with this. I know that out here in BC, people could care less about French (only 50,000 out of the 4.5 million that live here speak it fluently), so I'd say either teach it right through until graduation, or drop the Official Bilingualism nationally, and have it regulated on a provincial level. I'd prefer if we went with the first choice, though, since having taken French through grade 12, I'd at least be able to order a bus ticket in French if I had to.
They don't even have to teach through to grade 12--they can just actually TEACH French. The fact that we don't really learn any grammar or real sentences until high school in many provinces means the curriculum is just useless. I understand it's way too hard to offer immersion in every school but they could at least teach useful language constructs from the very beginning so kids actually have some way to USE the French they learn instead of just learning holiday vocabulary and doing simple crossword puzzles. <_<
 

Alakazam17

[b]Long time no see![/b]
5,641
Posts
18
Years
I agree with you Lightning, 100%.

Part of why I didn't want to learn French until I was in my twenties is because I felt like they were just trying to force it on us too much. And even then, they sucked at it. We were told to read these short stories allowed, and they gave us tests on spelling and verb conjugation(with words they had forgotten to translate for us...). Though best of all, French teachers at my elementary school were often required to teach us geography and history as well, just in English while using only French maps. xDDD

And in my case I was living only fifteen minutes from the Québec border. I can imagine it being worse further west.
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
8,123
Posts
19
Years
They don't even have to teach through to grade 12--they can just actually TEACH French. The fact that we don't really learn any grammar or real sentences until high school in many provinces means the curriculum is just useless. I understand it's way too hard to offer immersion in every school but they could at least teach useful language constructs from the very beginning so kids actually have some way to USE the French they learn instead of just learning holiday vocabulary and doing simple crossword puzzles. <_<
Yup, that sounds about right. They should do a better job, or just get rid of it.

I just don't see why we need to be bilingual. I understand our history with the colonies and language rights through the constitution, but it just seems too concentrated to one area for the rest of the country to pretend we're bilingual. It'd be like if we all had to pretend-lean Inuktitut as well because of the Northwest Territories.

I think it should be a demographic and demand thing. Like, I live in an area with a large Italian population, so in addition to French my elementary school also offered (not required) Italian. Now, ignoring that that really wasn't a good experience either XD Again, just colouring, crosswords puzzles, and bingo. In the later grades, we got some new teachers and since everyone but me was already fluent and would speak Italian to their parents and grandparents at home, they really upped the difficulty. Tested on language constructs like you were saying... but, I wasn't taught them lol It was just assumed we were all fluent due the area and it being an optional course, so while lessons were still time-killing crossword puzzles, tests were difficult and focused on the language they assumed I spoke fluently at home. :(

Anyway, getting side-tracked. I don't think we're really bilingual. Even with politics, we throw in a one sentence in French into a primarily English speech. It's just lip-service. I sort of view New Orleans as being like America's Québec. But, French isn't their second official language. Actually, Spanish would make more sense as their second language if America had to adopt one given demographics and demand (like I said above), and several places are starting to adopt that unofficially. So, I don't think that sort of thing should really be forced by legislation. That's not how culture should be formed. It should be natural and more self-realizing.

I don't have a problem with people learning other languages. It's a good thing to have. My dad majored in languages (I don't know why I didn't ask him for help in the French and Italian classes XD). I would have loved to haved learned one properly. But, our public schools do a really crappy job and there isn't much of a purpose to it being mandatory.

With all of that said tough, still not a reason to ban non-French speaking people from using public services in Québec. When it comes to front-line public service, I expect them to be able to communicate in both official languages. And if not, they should make every effort to accommodate them because they're the public service and we're the public. If someone from Québec was turned down in Alberta, I think it would be just as bad. And even then, what about tourists? People go to parts of Europe, for example, all the time from all over the world and don't speak the language. They get by because of helpful people offering the services, though I'm sure they're secretly annoyed. But still. I don't see how that concept shouldn't apply to Québec. Not to mention if you're an English-speaking citizen in Québec. You pay taxes that go toward public transit for example, but you wouldn't be able to use it. Makes no sense.
 

Cherrim

PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
33,267
Posts
21
Years
With all of that said tough, still not a reason to ban non-French speaking people from using public services in Québec. When it comes to front-line public service, I expect them to be able to communicate in both official languages. And if not, they should make every effort to accommodate them because they're the public service and we're the public. If someone from Québec was turned down in Alberta, I think it would be just as bad. And even then, what about tourists? People go to parts of Europe, for example, all the time from all over the world and don't speak the language. They get by because of helpful people offering the services, though I'm sure they're secretly annoyed. But still. I don't see how that concept shouldn't apply to Québec. Not to mention if you're an English-speaking citizen in Québec. You pay taxes that go toward public transit for example, but you wouldn't be able to use it. Makes no sense.
Well, reading the article it seems like "ban" is way too strong a word. It just seemed like there would be no real effort to hire workers who were bilingual so if you were walking up to your average ticket booth or talking to a driver or something and wanted to conduct your business in English (in a French city), you would not be guaranteed service and if you absolutely couldn't figure out how to acheter un billet, you'd end up walking. And that is absolutely fair, in my mind. It's what happens literally everywhere in the world. o_O Why is it a big deal if it happens in Montreal? Just because that city is partially English as well? If the francophones of Montreal know enough English that they can speak it when needed, I think the opposite should be true of anglophones living in the same city. Tourists can do whatever it is they always do when they visit a foreign language destination.

City officials aren't walking through the public transit system and kicking people out if they're found speaking English or something. They can't BAN a language. It just seems like they don't think they should be required to offer service in English just like the rest of Canada isn't required to offer service in French. Not out on the street, anyway--there'll always be head offices and phone numbers to call for service in either language but your average bus driver or ticket booth attendant won't necessarily be able to help you in the language that is not actually native to the area. That was my understanding.
The closest I got to really doing anything pre-High School was a novel study in French 9. We started rather close to the end of the year, so we never did finish it. Although it was like, a Grade 3 or 4-reading level book. I can read things and translate what most of it is into English and get the general idea of what's going on, or listen in on a conversation and pick out words I know, like vocab or a conjugated verb, but not much more. The current curriculum sucks and I really wish I had started earlier, or even done French Immersion. I'd be a far better speaker by now.
Yeah, the difficulty really ramps up when you get into the later (and optional) grades of French. When you take a French university course, they start teaching from Ontario's Grade 9 French. And that's the only required one here. I don't think you learn much aside from passé composé in it, since it's assumed you know present tense (except no one does because no one takes French seriously until that grade since the curriculum doesn't take it seriously until then). Why does that happen then? There's absolutely no reason it can't happen while we're kids. It's better to learn languages when you're young anyway. After a certain age, it becomes really hard for us to learn pronunciations and even actual languages. Children are much, MUCH more receptive to languages when they are very young so French basics and vocab and pronunciation and all that should be taught as early as Kindergarten with grammar and more useful vocabulary in earlier grades to go with it.
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
8,123
Posts
19
Years
Well, reading the article it seems like "ban" is way too strong a word. It just seemed like there would be no real effort to hire workers who were bilingual so if you were walking up to your average ticket booth or talking to a driver or something and wanted to conduct your business in English (in a French city), you would not be guaranteed service and if you absolutely couldn't figure out how to acheter un billet, you'd end up walking.

...

City officials aren't walking through the public transit system and kicking people out if they're found speaking English or something. They can't BAN a language. It just seems like they don't think they should be required to offer service in English just like the rest of Canada isn't required to offer service in French.
That article linked to in the thread read:

"We want the Charter of the French language modified so that all provincial and municipal services are offered exclusively in French," said Marie-Claire Baigner, a representative from the SFPQ Union.

A ban on other languages would encourage immigrants and Anglophones to learn French, according to Baigner.


So, from that I took ban to mean... ban XD Granted, that term wasn't actually part of the quoted text and was probably entirely hyperbole on the article's part, but I ran with it. lol

And that is absolutely fair, in my mind. It's what happens literally everywhere in the world. o_O Why is it a big deal if it happens in Montreal? Just because that city is partially English as well? If the francophones of Montreal know enough English that they can speak it when needed, I think the opposite should be true of anglophones living in the same city. Tourists can do whatever it is they always do when they visit a foreign language destination.

...

Not out on the street, anyway--there'll always be head offices and phone numbers to call for service in either language but your average bus driver or ticket booth attendant won't necessarily be able to help you in the language that is not actually native to the area. That was my understanding.
In the other thread I had said, It says in our Constitution, or more specifically our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that both official languages (English and French) "have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions". Provincial services are supposed to be provided regardless of language. French is Quebec's only official language since the '70s, but they're still required to follow the Federal legislation on this.

Other places in Canada, where English is the primary language, may not be following this as intended either. And that's wrong too. But, while corny, two wrongs don't make a right. If someone from Quebec comes to Toronto, they should be able to order from the TTC booth in French. If that's not happening, I'd support efforts to rectify it too. Wouldn't necessarily need to hire bilingual workers. Just have signage and assistance available. That's all I think is necessary. Even in the Quebec case.

The "they can walk" attitude shown in the article just strikes a stronger chord with me because it has a bit of a "if they can't figure out, screw them" kinda feel to it which just makes no sense in the service industry to me.

Anyway, enough on that from me here. Don't need two threads on this. XD
 

Shining Raichu

Expect me like you expect Jesus.
8,959
Posts
13
Years
Hey guys!

Alright, so Cosmotone8 has asked me to close this club as he wishes to leave PC and therefore won't be around to maintain it. I don't want to do that, because it's one of the more active clubs in the section and I think it would be a real shame to waste it. So, who wants it? As the four most active posters in the club, I'd like to see Team Fail, LilJz, TRIFORCE or Frostweaver take the reigns, but really it's up to you guys - I'll let you figure it out as a group and when it's been decided, someone shoot me a PM and I'll transfer the club over into their name! :)
 

Captain Gizmo

Monkey King
4,843
Posts
11
Years
I wouldn't mind taking care of it if no one else is willing to, since I'm very active on this forum and all. But if anyone here wants to take care of it instead, that would be great since I'm already running the Naruto Fan Club.

But since Cosmotone is leaving PC :'[ how is the new person in charge gonna be putting new members on the list? Since we don't have permission to edit the first post. Unless we'll have to make a new one?
 

Cherrim

PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
33,267
Posts
21
Years
Nah, you can merge posts so SR would just copy one of your posts in here and merge it with the first post to trick the forum into thinking you made the opening post all along, so you'd be able to edit the list and everything then. (Or a new thread could be made but this one is already so well-established it looks nicer to keep it around imo.)

I don't mind taking over it either but you are much more active and all so if you aren't too busy with the Naruto club already it probably makes more sense. ^^
 
8,571
Posts
14
Years
Yeah, the difficulty really ramps up when you get into the later (and optional) grades of French. When you take a French university course, they start teaching from Ontario's Grade 9 French. And that's the only required one here. I don't think you learn much aside from passé composé in it, since it's assumed you know present tense (except no one does because no one takes French seriously until that grade since the curriculum doesn't take it seriously until then). Why does that happen then? There's absolutely no reason it can't happen while we're kids. It's better to learn languages when you're young anyway. After a certain age, it becomes really hard for us to learn pronunciations and even actual languages. Children are much, MUCH more receptive to languages when they are very young so French basics and vocab and pronunciation and all that should be taught as early as Kindergarten with grammar and more useful vocabulary in earlier grades to go with it.
I started Passé Composeé in like, 9th Grade here too, and I'm doing other tenses as well, like imparfait and futur proche, as well as futur simple. Except I get them confused on a regular basis lol.
My class started learning passé composé back in grade 7, but that was because our teacher actually spoke French as his first language, and figured if we got a head start we'd be better prepared for future French classes (I'd even say my grade 9 French class was easier than grade 7). I really wish that I could've stayed on that difficulty curve going forward, since I learned next to nothing about French for two years.

The big problem I think is that many teachers (especially as you get further away from Quebec) aren't as knowledgable about the language as they should be, so it's similar to the blind leading the blind in teaching French. I find that this leads to all of the simple activities like crosswords and learning songs, because you won't have a teacher specializing in French until high school. Again, if we want to promote a nationwide bilingualism, we should be learning it from a much earlier age, since even those two extra years would've improved my skills greatly.

---

I wouldn't mind helping out with the club, either, since I'm not quite as busy as everyone else, but then again, there are a couple of you that are more active here than I am. That, and the club isn't quite as active as some of the other ones, so I'm sure whoever's running it won't have too much trouble.

Also, I noticed that the Canadian Club is eligible to receive it's own emblem. I'm not quite sure what the requirements would be to receive it, what it would look like, etc., but I think it would be a neat idea if we had one.
 
8,571
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14
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What it means by that, is that whoever owns the club (Which is now up in the air) can create an emblem for their club, and distribute it to whoever they want in that club.
That's the reason why I thought it'd be interesting if we all collectively came up with an idea, as there isn't really an owner right now to make one and come up with guidelines for it. I don't know, just an idea.

@French subject: I had a teacher like that last year. Except that he also knew little English. He basically babied everyone through the course. To the point that he walked us through the final exam. In ENGLISH.
For the first month of my grade 10 French class, our substitute teacher was like that. He was half Vietnamese/half French, and wasn't all that great with English. He'd basically tell us exactly what to do, and it we couldn't figure it out, to just use an online translator. When our regular teacher came back from his surgery, the course was night and day to what we'd been learning up to that point.
 

Oshy

♩♫♩
61
Posts
10
Years
  • Seen Apr 23, 2013
Username: Oshy
Relation to Canada: Born in Quebec
Favourite Province: Newfoundland
Reason for Joining (optional): To chat with fellow Canadians, of course! :D
 

Cherrim

PSA: Blossom Shower theme is BACK ♥
33,267
Posts
21
Years
That's the reason why I thought it'd be interesting if we all collectively came up with an idea, as there isn't really an owner right now to make one and come up with guidelines for it. I don't know, just an idea.
We should have an emblem for people who manage to change the topic from weather to something else because we talk about weather way too much in this club. :P
 
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