SAME-SEX MARRIAGE NOW LEGAL IN NEW ZEALAND

Yusshin said:

I thought that verse was pretty clear in its meaning: that homosexuality is wrong; that a man and a woman may lie together, but not a man and a man or a woman and a woman.

But I guess it could be read other ways.

Anyway.

Yay New Zealand!

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Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.

The problem with taking verses today in English as subtle and nuanced is that it's been through hundreds of translations of varying skill throughout the thousands of years since it was written. Part of a class I'm in is to study psalms just before and just after the reformation and compare different translations, and some psalms are completely different in some lines based on whether I was reading post-Reformation Catholic, post-reformation Protestant, or pre-Reformation Catholic.

Then there were the words that mean something different now than they did back then, outside of the bias of any one of the translators of old. And the verses that were written to rely on their popular culture.

Jay_37040 said:

Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.

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But of course. That's what the Protestant revolution was all about: the ability to interpret the texts as one sees them, rather than relying on the Church for its narrow-minded interpretations.

I wanted to find a demotivational poster of the pope declaring that homosexual marriage is wrong, then fine-printed "Has sex with alter boys" but I couldn't find one in a quick Google search... Too lazy to make one for this post lol

But kinda off-topic now. Someone get this back on-topic :(

So proud of New Zealand! :) Great Job!

I would have thought that people would have kept their venomous opinions to themselves for just one thread in D&D, but it appears that I am wrong.

Nevertheless, yay for my country, yay for the gay rights movement and most importantly, yay for me.

What is the meaning of marriage? To me is the covenant that a man and a woman make to become one. Emphasis on "man" and "woman". I don't say that I restrict that kind of practice(or we). Is just that it's disgusting to know that morality and virtue is practically corrupted if that continues. We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom. What I'm pointing out is what I know and believe is to be right. I'm sorry if I'm religious or whatnot guys but that just it. I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions. I'm not here to destroy your views. I'm here to give my opinion.

vaporeon7 said:

Maybe when Julia Gillard sees how happy people are that New Zealand legalised gay marriage, she might actually realise in the end that legalising gay marriage is the right thing to do. Rather than having people move to New Zealand so they can marry the person they love.

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Good luck with that - I don't see Gillard changing her stance of just letting a 'conscience vote' happen with her party, nor Abbott allowing that to occur anytime soon. I think it'll be some time yet before it happens here.

That in itself is good news for New Zealand tourism from Australia. =p

It is kinda amazing they broke into song after it was passed as well there. Neat video @ Toujours.

The forum name doesn't say "Debate Or Die" which is surely what it feels like at times.

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Brb starting a motion for another forum name change. ~

I've been searching for this for a while now, a secular definition of marriage by John Locke:

"Conjugal society is made of a voluntary compact between man and woman; and tho' it consist chiefly in such a communion and right in one another's bodies as is necessary to its chief end, procreation; yet it draws with it mutual support and assistance, and a communion of interests too, as necessary not only to unite their care and affection, but also necessary to their common off-spring, who have a right to be nourished, and maintained by them, till they are able to provide for themselves."

Antescript - It's 4:30 in the morning so I apologize beforehand for any mistakes I make, as I woke up, checked my phone, and felt the urge to defend my homosexual brothers and sisters, along with what I take pride in being. I want to just clear up a few errors in judgement, and I'm not going to quote anyone. I'm just going to respond in general to those who aren't necessarily living in 2013.

First of all, some of you treat homosexuality like a disease. I can attest for all homosexuals that we did not just wake up one day and decide to start liking the same sex. Why would we even get the slightest inclination to do that? To be so generalized and disliked is not fun, but the haters make us stronger because we're all united for a common cause.

Also, some of you believe that not having access to marriage is going to stop us from enjoying the true aspects of love. Marriage means nothing. It's just a piece of paper. We've become so accustomed to not having marriage rights that believe me, we can live without it. In my honest opinion, gay relationships are much stronger than heterosexual relationships because we struggle through so much more to find and keep love, whereas heterosexual couples are getting divorced left and right. Oh wait, isn't divorce a sin in your lovely Bibles? Or is that conveniently overlooked when it suits you?

How absurd to think that homosexuals are all pedophiles, child molesters, and just subhumans who have no idea how to be parents. How crazy the idea that studies have proven that most homosexual couples raise children who end up heterosexuals. How sad to think that children raised by homosexuals will most likely end up becoming a lot more approving of those people who don't fit the outrageous norms set by society. Yup, we're doing it all wrong. We're defying all the laws of nature! I suggest preparing the jail cells, electric chairs, and lethal injections.

Wake up, people. Gay rights is on the political agenda for many countries across the world. Homosexuals are not subhumans. Sexuality should not and does not define a person, but rather just who they love. I respect your religious beliefs, but it's not healthy for those beliefs to cloud your common sense and moral judgment. I pity you, because we are living in a world where gay marriage will eventually become the norm, where basic human rights will finally be granted to everyone, and how lamentable it is to think that you will not take part in the celebrations because of some ridiculous principles.

I addressed this post to only a select few who have posted on this thread. To all of you who are vocal advocates, you don't understand how great it is to see all the support pouring out from every single one of you, because it really shows that there is still faith in humanity. You are all the reason why we end up becoming accepting of who we are, why we continue fighting a battle we never agreed on entering. It's unfortunate that a thread created to celebrate something like this has turned into a debate, but it's refreshing to see people willing to defend the LGBT community to the utmost. If only you guys could be running our governments. ;) I thank you. <3

♣Gawain♣ said:

What is the meaning of marriage? To me is the covenant that a man and a woman make to become one. Emphasis on "man" and "woman". I don't say that I restrict that kind of practice(or we). Is just that it's disgusting to know that morality and virtue is practically corrupted if that continues. We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom. What I'm pointing out is what I know and believe is to be right. I'm sorry if I'm religious or whatnot guys but that just it. I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions. I'm not here to destroy your views. I'm here to give my opinion.

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When you talk about the legalization of gay marriage being "disgusting", your opinion is not just an opinion. It's an offensive attack. If you believe in freedom, shouldn't you feel the same way Yusshin does? If not, you don't believe in freedom - you believe that you should be free to act on your morals but the rest of the world should be restricted to your own moral code.

♣Gawain♣ said:

We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom.

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You're not helping your case.

I don't care about your definition of marriage because we have different opinions.

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And why should we care about yours, then? Again, not helping your point.

♣Gawain♣ said:

We Russians may be stereotyped as autocratic or cruel or whatever because of our history but we respect freedom.

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Do I have to remind you that your government right now is attempting to enact a country-wide law prohibiting the rights of gays and lesbians to assemble, prohibiting them from demonstrating, prohibiting them from doing anything that would be construed as "promoting" homosexuality? Some places in Russia where this law has already been enacted, it could even be used to even prohibit a gay couple from holding hands for crying out loud. Tell me, how does this support your assertion that Russians respect freedom? The majority of the people polled in your country want gay people "cured" and almost a quarter want them destroyed. Your country is as anti-gay as they come. I don't expect it'll be long before homosexuality is once again illegal in your country. Freedom my butt.

Jay_37040 said:

Only if the text was translated correctly, which it wasn't. And who do you think authorized, and supervised, the translations? The Church.

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Right, its always the Church. Even though published English translations of the Tanakh also come out the same way. Or that for Christians, the New Covenant supersedes the Mosaic Covenant (save for the Ten Commandments). If they carry that passage on a sign, I don't think they actually understand their faith that much.

However, I think there's some truth in what that link you posted said. In terms of interpretation. Although not yet officially recognized by the Church, there is a new (2009) Catholic translation out called the Catholic Public Domain Version. Its fairly literal and while I tend to think the Bible should be taken figuratively and not literally, it is beneficial here.

It translates it as "You shall not commit sexual acts with a male, in place of sexual intercourse with a female."

Not, "as with" as commonly seen. But, it is "in place of". Which supports what that link you provided was saying. Only a heterosexual man would be at risk of having intercourse with a man in place of a woman. Conversely, a homosexual man would be at risk of having intercourse with a woman in place of a man. Don't know why it doesn't have text representing that as well, but at the same time it also doesn't have a female-centric version. Also, wouldn't address bisexuality, but I'd think it all comes down to authorship essentially.

Anyway, that aside. Good on New Zealand XD Welcome to the club.

Congrats New Zealand, I'm jealous.

TRIFORCE89 said:

Right, its always the Church. Even though published English translations of the Tanakh also come out the same way. Or that for Christians, the New Covenant supersedes the Mosaic Covenant (save for the Ten Commandments). If they carry that passage on a sign, I don't think they actually understand their faith that much.

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I could not believe that when I first heard about it, it's such a cop out! Considering the amount of translations, all of which are valid, the utility of the Bible as a religious authority is essentially nil.

Gyardosamped said:

Also, some of you believe that not having access to marriage is going to stop us from enjoying the true aspects of love. Marriage means nothing. It's just a piece of paper. We've become so accustomed to not having marriage rights that believe me, we can live without it. In my honest opinion, gay relationships are much stronger than heterosexual relationships because we struggle through so much more to find and keep love, whereas heterosexual couples are getting divorced left and right.

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I think same-sex marriage means a lot to a lot of people, or else there wouldn't be all this activity about it. And that's a really generalized statement about heterosexual marriage - it's stuff like this that gets people thinking there's a "gay agenda", because face it, it is chauvinist and you're painting in huge strokes.

Gyardosamped said:

I respect your religious beliefs, but it's not healthy for those beliefs to cloud your common sense and moral judgment. I pity you, because we are living in a world where gay marriage will eventually become the norm, where basic human rights will finally be granted to everyone, and how lamentable it is to think that you will not take part in the celebrations because of some ridiculous principles.

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This is the same kind of patronizing we hear from religious bigots, so I thought talk like this was despised. I think his health is doing just fine, and he doesn't need your pity either. It's kind of like "God doesn't approve of what you're doing, but he loves you anyways". Substitute Jesus for God for greater effect. Just because you have the moral upper ground doesn't mean you should start gloating about it. Or else everything will just have turned full circle.

Retro Bug said:

Congrats New Zealand, I'm jealous.

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May I ask why you're jealous?

Jay_37040 said:

May I ask why you're jealous?

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Probably the same reasons I'm jealous - because I live in a country that hasn't fully legalized same-sex marriage. Or allowing people to change their gender without divorcing for that matter.

Scarf said:

Probably the same reasons I'm jealous - because I live in a country that hasn't fully legalized same-sex marriage. Or allowing people to change their gender without divorcing for that matter.

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Although I live in Canada, a country that has enjoyed full recognition of all its citizen's civil rights (including those who are transgender) for some time, I've tried to keep myself involved outside of this country. Granted I have not participated in demonstrations, or attended rallies, but I have signed petition after petition in support of my LGBT brothers and sisters all over the world. It is not much, I know, but it is my hope that by signing these petitions I do, in some small way, something to help everyone to attain full equality.

My only recommendation to you is this: don't be jealous, instead use this advancement of civil rights to spurn you to continue the fight. It may not happen right away, but one day it will happen.

Well me, Im not gay. But I respect peoples choices.

You have no idea how different New Zealand is about gay marriage, most people hate it.

People should be happy, just dont try anything funny on me boi.

Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu said:

Well me, Im not gay. But I respect peoples choices.

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Being gay isn't a choice, though. Acting on one's feelings, however, is. There lies the difference.

Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu said:

You have no idea how different New Zealand is about gay marriage, most people hate it.

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I'm sorry, but the polls coming out of New Zealand prior to this vote being taken suggest your assertion is incorrect. For instance, a One News poll conducted by Colmar Brunton found that 63 percent of New Zealanders think same-sex couples should be able to marry, while 31 percent were opposed. And a New Zealand Herald Digipoll survey conducted last month showed 52 percent of respondents supported same-sex marriage while 48 percent were opposed.

Pichu2Pikachu2Raichu said:

People should be happy, just dont try anything funny on me boi.

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Why would any gay person knowingly hit on someone who is straight? We're not walking bags of hormones out to copulate with every male we encounter you know. And if someone who is gay does hit on you, simply tell them that you are not gay and they will thank you and that will be that. Any person who pushes themselves on you, though, should be cited for sexual harassment. And that goes for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation.