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  #51    
Old February 2nd, 2018 (11:09 AM).
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    Originally Posted by Arsenic View Post
    I prefer to call it female supremacy.

    Anyone interested in true equality would be campaigning for equality for all, not just a single group. Same with things like BLM, LGBT, "Restoring white equality", so on and so fourth.

    How about Humanism.
    We already adopt humanism in modern society.
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      #52    
    Old February 2nd, 2018 (12:30 PM).
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      Feminism is (or should be) campaigning for gender equality and working to bring down the patriarchy. And bringing down the patriarchy should mean making the world an equal place for all genders, not placing women on top. I am a feminist, but I definitely don't hate men, as the stereotype seems to be. And, yes, there are probably a lot of women like that, but that's not was feminism is. Anyone who thinks that really needs to go and read Holly Bourne. And if you don't, read her books anyway. They show feminism pretty accurately.
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        #53    
      Old February 2nd, 2018 (1:12 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post


        Feminism is and always has been about elevating the status of women in pursuit of equality. Let us not pretend, in any way, that it's something it isn't.


        As for my own thoughts, I am all for the core belief behind feminism - equality of the sexes. I do not however consider myself a feminist nor do I support feminism as a movement for a few reason. I won't sit here and make outrageous claims that all feminists are feminazi sjw anti-man supremacist whatevers, because that simply isn't the case. The majority of the movement are probably perfectly normal people. Is there extremism in the movement? Yes, but it's not an extremist movement.

        That being said, I do have problems with the movement. Firstly, I feel like it pushes beliefs that simply are not factual. The idea that there is a collective patriarchy oppressing women, the idea that there is a culture that encourages rape or sexual assault or that there is an ever-present wage gap (although I'm sure some assholes will go out of their way to under pay don't you worry - this is still too prevalent). I don't for one second doubt that there is a lot of injustice and inequality against women in our society, but I do not believe we have a society centred around the systematic oppression of women. Are women often marginalised, yes. Is there a patriarchal conspiracy against women, no.

        Secondly, I do not support any group that only seeks to benefit themselves (or otherwise focuses only on the rights of one group). That means feminism, BLM, MRAs, whatever twisted group think white people need to take back America - all of them. If the very nature of your movement is exclusive, then it isn't promoting equality. If you feel like your work s done when problems facing women are dealt with but issues facing men, racial issues, LGBT issues, class issues and so-forth aren't something you speak out against then you never wanted equality. Equality has to be for everyone. As Bay mentioned, even in the feminist movement itself, the focus is very clearly on what benefits middle-upper class white women compared to other females.

        I consider myself egalitarian. Not as a thinly-veiled way to do nothing and maintain the status quo like some conservatives use the term, I want equality for everyone and I think the sooner there is a global initiative for equal rights for all, the better.
        I agree with you. Thanks for being logical in your response.
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          #54    
        Old February 2nd, 2018 (6:04 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by luuma View Post
        Here's another example: If me and someone else are lifting a box, and we both drop it on the other guy's foot, we "should" both accept blame equally, absolutely. But we should not be punished equally. Punishment and persecution should only fall to me, because for the other guy, having a box dropped on your foot is bad enough. That is how the current system works, and I think it's absolutely fit for purpose.
        Here's a slightly more accurate scenario.

        If me and someone else are lifting a box and I wanted to drop it, I'll check with them to see if it's okay. They say give me consent to drop the box and I drop it. Turns out they hadn't moved their foot and perhaps I didn't double check because I figured when theybsaidbyes, they would've made sure to move it.

        Also, all I've been saying is that the fault lies in both parties. I don't think I ever said the woman should be punished.
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          #55    
        Old February 3rd, 2018 (1:38 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
          Here's a slightly more accurate scenario.

          If me and someone else are lifting a box and I wanted to drop it, I'll check with them to see if it's okay. They say give me consent to drop the box and I drop it. Turns out they hadn't moved their foot and perhaps I didn't double check because I figured when theybsaidbyes, they would've made sure to move it.
          same principle applies

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
          Also, all I've been saying is that the fault lies in both parties. I don't think I ever said the woman should be punished.
          First off, stop treating consent as a FEMALE ONLY THING! my GOD! Men can be asked for sex too.

          No you're right, you didn't say the woman should be punished, you said education should fall on both parties. That is what I am addressing in the next paragraph. The bit you quoted is not my entire point, it is the basis of my entire point, as you can see in the subsequent seemingly unread parts I've quoted below

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by luuma View Post
          Then we go about telling people not to drop boxes on other people's feet. We could tell people not to drop boxes on their own feet, but as I say, dropping a box on your foot is bad enough. People intuitively don't want to drop boxes on their own feet anyway, it's bloody obvious. Let's return to the analogy. TW: If I was sexually assaulted, that is a lesson in giving precise consent. It is not a bearable, forgettable thing.
          For the love of god please read, man. it's such a drag having to repeat myself like three times to get you up to speed on why I think you're wrong.
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            #56    
          Old February 3rd, 2018 (5:08 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by luuma View Post
          -snip-
          Mybpoint was that your analogy implies the party that asked if they can drop the box and did, only for accidentally land on the other's foot, is as bad as the person who slammed it onto another's foot on purpose.

          I think we came to an agreement when you stated that the blame should go to both parties and that both sides should be more educated.

          I'll end this here, seeing as we've begun to say the same thing back and forth.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by luuma View Post
          For the love of god please read, man. it's such a drag having to repeat myself like three times to get you up to speed on why I think you're wrong.
          I apologize that that's too much of a bother for you, but seeing as I've had to repeat myself as many times, if not more, I'm sure you'll survive.
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            #57    
          Old February 3rd, 2018 (5:39 AM). Edited February 3rd, 2018 by luuma.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
            Mybpoint was that your analogy implies the party that asked if they can drop the box and did, only for accidentally land on the other's foot, is as bad as the person who slammed it onto another's foot on purpose. .
            This is not something I feel like I implied here at all. Where does this suggest it was done on purpose?

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by luuma View Post
            Here's another example: If me and someone else are lifting a box, and we both drop it on the other guy's foot, we "should" both accept blame equally, absolutely. But we should not be punished equally. Punishment and persecution should only fall to me, because for the other guy, having a box dropped on your foot is bad enough. That is how the current system works, and I think it's absolutely fit for purpose.


            Quote:
            Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
            I apologize that that's too much of a bother for you, but seeing as I've had to repeat myself as many times, if not more, I'm sure you'll survive.
            thanks so much for being so cloyingly civil. Every time you've "repeated yourself" thus far I have just been forced to quote the part of my previous posts where I addressed that point. You haven't "had" to repeat yourself, you've just done so anyway.


            But not gonna lie, we are both kinda ruining a thread here, I am indeed going to drop it now. I'm sure you'll survive : ) ) )
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              #58    
            Old February 3rd, 2018 (11:12 AM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
              I'll end this here, seeing as we've begun to say the same thing back and forth.
              I apologize that that's too much of a bother for you, but seeing as I've had to repeat myself as many times, if not more, I'm sure you'll survive.
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by luuma View Post
              thanks so much for being so cloyingly civil. Every time you've "repeated yourself" thus far I have just been forced to quote the part of my previous posts where I addressed that point. You haven't "had" to repeat yourself, you've just done so anyway.


              But not gonna lie, we are both kinda ruining a thread here, I am indeed going to drop it now. I'm sure you'll survive : ) ) )
              I'll say you both kinda ruined it, and not because you've had to repeat your points over and over, but that you both didn't seem get that perhaps, "What I'm saying isn't being received as the exact same way."

              I've just been observing since I made my points and left out of disinterest, but I might as well as point out that both of you have been saying stuff and that both of you are interpreting each other differently. In any case, I have to say that about 2 comments in, perhaps the idea of "clarification by questions" would have clicked or something.

              Okay so turning off my annoyance. You both mean well and I think I get the brunt of your arguments. However, amid that I can say that both of you misunderstood to the point that is seems like you both were taking each other out of context. Do whatever you will after this, but I thought it fine to point out that explaining your points can only go so far and sometimes you need to other person to ask questions/tell what they hear.

              and no, it isn't only on the speaker but the listener too. Both of yo- no everyone in this entire thread should practice reading a comment more than thrice to ensure they get the message. If there are parts that are unclear/don't make sense, then clarification may be needed and that's done by asking.

              And let me point out that I'm against peeps having condescending attitudes towards their fellow speakers. (If you bring up my thing from earlier, I apologized that wasn't the intention and that if I did I apologize for)
              I think you both bring up good arguments, but that's only after I read this thread like "Five times" to try and make sure I understood what you both were saying. Overall, it's fine, but please can we all stop treating miscommunication as the other person "Not getting it cause they can't think" or "are illogical and/or simple minded" instead of I dunno, actually trying to make sure we're on the same page.


              Pardon the rant, I wish you both and everyone in this thread well.
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                #59    
              Old March 10th, 2018 (7:06 PM).
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              Alright, so I fall into the situation where people would call me an extreme feminist, SJW, 'third-wave' (using it as a derogatory term instead of its actual definition), whatever.

              It's honestly really disappointing looking at this thread and the misconceptions of modern feminism, and also a bit funny considering people seem to like the 'older' feminists, which is really weird considering second-wave is where a lot of the actual man-hating feminists and TERFs fall into.

              No muk we support the equality of both sexes. Along with the recognition of minority women, trans women and non-binary people. There's a reason third-wave is known as intersectional feminism.

              Personally, I have no problem with men, as I am a guy myself, and pretty much every feminist I've talked to on Leftbook and the meta+left circle of reddit is the same. The reason discussion tends to focus on women is because there is still a mukton of imbalance between men and women. The Hollywood rape accusations that have come out in full force in the past 6 months or so is a good indication of that. Men in positions of power are protected by other influential men. It's as simple as that. Women are threatened that they'll be kept out of the industry if they don't have sex with them, have their life ruined, whatever. This isn't new, and happens everywhere on smaller scales. That's just one example.

              My point is, legal rights don't mean muk when it comes to the culture of a society, and pretty much all of the world is still heavily dominated by wealthy men. That's why I'm a feminist. Not because I want to see all men castrated, toothbrushes seized, white genocide, whatever like a lot of reactionaries like to delude themselves into believing.
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                #60    
              Old March 17th, 2018 (3:24 AM). Edited March 17th, 2018 by Yoshikko.
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Patchisou Yutohru View Post
              Without going into too much detail because frankly I'm not interested in debating this, I find it incredibly inconsistent. There was once a time when feminism aligned with what it says it is, but that is very much in the past. At the root it stands for female empowerment, but there are multiple layers about it that construct it as the opposite, bullying. Feminism's primary objective seems to be pushing men down to pull women up. That is not equality. It is picking and choosing behaviors to suit its needs and desires. Unfortunately, feminism is coined with "pro women." If you aren't a feminist, you are against women and you are against women's civil and political rights. If you're a woman yourself who rejects feminism, you hate women. I am very much for women, and "women's rights", but I am very much anti-feminist.
              Vehemently disagree. People who say they are for equality but against feminism always make me laugh. I think the part about feminism having become something else than what it was intended as is debatable, but your idea of what feminism is, is incorrect. I feel that feminism is necessary in this world, where women are still treated as lesser. Had it been the other way around, there would have been a male-focused variant. Feminism is not about putting men down, it's about pulling women up to the same level. It is definitely about equality. The problem with modern day feminism is that it's everything but inclusive, and so it's failing. Gay women, trans women, black women (and any women of colour, but black women in particular) are more often than not excluded and so these days it really seems to be about having a notch on your belt, rather than actually fighting for equality. So I understand your contempt, except it's in the wrong direction.

              Feminism at its core is about equality. Speaking generally, if you're not a feminist, you're not against women, but you are definitely for upkeeping the current standard. Or else, you have your definitions all wrong.

              Logically you should have the same feelings about LGBT movements or BLM movements, since they put their focus on a particular group. Why doesn't feminism fit in here? It's the same principle. Seems to me like you just want to avoid being grouped in with the negative idea people have of feminists.
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                #61    
              Old March 17th, 2018 (7:50 AM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Yoshikko View Post
                Feminism at its core is about equality. Speaking generally, if you're not a feminist, you're not against women, but you are definitely for upkeeping the current standard. Or else, you have your definitions all wrong.

                Logically you should have the same feelings about LGBT movements or BLM movements, since they put their focus on a particular group. Why doesn't feminism fit in here? It's the same principle. Seems to me like you just want to avoid being grouped in with the negative idea people have of feminists.
                I severely disagree with this statement. I don't have to be a feminist to still be for women's rights. Feminism doesn't own the concept of equality of the sexes, if just is the most vocal group about it. I disagree with a bit of the policies they put as well as some of their doings so I don't attribute myself to feminism (that and I don't care to). This doesn't make me any less of a equality of the sexes supporter, nor does it mean I have definitions wrong.

                Regarding LGBT and BLM, understand not everyone agrees with movements in general. I disagree with a bit of what both do, does that mean I'm against their freedoms, no. I think there's a fine line between association and advocacy. I'm fine with them all bringing their own problems to the table, however I have an issue with the current movements status for my own disagreements with them.
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                  #62    
                Old March 18th, 2018 (3:05 AM).
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                  Quote:
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                  I severely disagree with this statement. I don't have to be a feminist to still be for women's rights. Feminism doesn't own the concept of equality of the sexes, if just is the most vocal group about it. I disagree with a bit of the policies they put as well as some of their doings so I don't attribute myself to feminism (that and I don't care to). This doesn't make me any less of a equality of the sexes supporter, nor does it mean I have definitions wrong.

                  Regarding LGBT and BLM, understand not everyone agrees with movements in general. I disagree with a bit of what both do, does that mean I'm against their freedoms, no. I think there's a fine line between association and advocacy. I'm fine with them all bringing their own problems to the table, however I have an issue with the current movements status for my own disagreements with them.
                  My issue with this is that you can't really call feminism a movement in the same way you can call BLM one, given that "feminism" is an ideology rather than a singular collective of people who share an idea. I take similar issue with the idea of "lgbt movements" being boiled down to a single thing.

                  I probably shouldn't have started with "my issue with this" when i had multiple issues with it is having issues with a movement's actions and excusing yourself from being part of said movement even if you share those views, and as such are inherently a part of the movement is that attributing the actions of a few in what amounts to an organisation with no power structure or prevailing singular policy/set of actions and damning everyone who prescribes to that ideology because of it (even if it's in that lame implicit way that's like "i don't agree with what feminists do but i agree with feminism") is absolutely useless in every respect.

                  "I don't agree with some guy who said he was part of blm doing a bad thing so i don't agree with blm as a whole, but i agree with their core ideology of 'Hey Maybe We Shouldn't Murder People'" doesn't say anything at all beyond that you attribute the actions of someone/multiple someones who have an ideology with the actions of everyone who shares that ideology.

                  The vagueness of your disagreements (despite it actually being useful to air those in this discussion) aside, Feminism does own the concept of equality of the sexes because that's literally the ideology at play, and while BLM might actually not own the concept of "hey police brutality is bad and a problem" disagreeing with what some people who agree with BLM do in service of that concept isn't "having issues with" BLM, it's just perceiving BLM to be a hivemind that acts in unison rather than an umbrella label for people who agree with the core ideology
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                    #63    
                  Old March 18th, 2018 (8:03 AM).
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                    I like the idea of woman (and all people, really) having equal rights and am a strong fan of 'girl power'.

                    I really dislike feminists who take their point too far, though. Like, the ones that act like girly girls don't belong in this world. I'm a girly girl, myself, so it anger's me when people are against who I am. I'm not weak! I even stood up for other people like me on another forum with a friend today, and it was a forum i've always been afraid of getting in trouble on. This show's I can be a very brave, and strong person. Feminists who would think otherwise of me are in the wrong.

                    I don't know if I count as 'feminist' or not. I don't really quite understand what the term means. I have nothing against males, though. I have male friends who I see as some of the easiest people ever to talk to. I don't get all scared talking about my childhood, for one, with males unlike with females. Because I don't care as much if they didn't grow up 'girly' as much.

                    And, in my book, females should feel EMPOWERED by liking 'feminine' and 'girly' things. If those things are refered to as those terms, there's a good reason, not a bad one.
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                      #64    
                    Old March 18th, 2018 (11:46 AM). Edited 4 Weeks Ago by Vragon2.0.
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                      My issue with this is that you can't really call feminism a movement in the same way you can call BLM one, given that "feminism" is an ideology rather than a singular collective of people who share an idea. I take similar issue with the idea of "lgbt movements" being boiled down to a single thing.
                      Dude, all movements have an ideology they are pushing, that's nothing new. When I'm talking about feminism, I'm taking about the collective, current active group in the matter. Not every feminist agrees with what their group does yes, but support the over idea that "equality of the sexes" exist. Now, feminism to me is a movement, since it started back then and is still strong now. The idea of "equality of the sexes" and it is activity of said movement I'm talking about.

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                      I probably shouldn't have started with "my issue with this" when i had multiple issues with it is having issues with a movement's actions and excusing yourself from being part of said movement even if you share those views, and as such are inherently a part of the movement is that attributing the actions of a few in what amounts to an organisation with no power structure or prevailing singular policy/set of actions and damning everyone who prescribes to that ideology because of it (even if it's in that lame implicit way that's like "i don't agree with what feminists do but i agree with feminism") is absolutely useless in every respect.
                      Not really, I just disagree with a lot of the more focused ones. I'm not square enough to damn the entire group for the collection of a few mind you and I understand not everyone in there is the same nor is everyone in their going to agree on the same thing. I just personally don't care to affiliate due to the idea of "equality of the sexes" being something I personally believe in and go with rather than everything else in there. I think there's is a fine line between the idea of a movement and the movement in general and since both our arguments build on that, that's probably where the bull horns are clashing.
                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                      "I don't agree with some guy who said he was part of blm doing a bad thing so i don't agree with blm as a whole, but i agree with their core ideology of 'Hey Maybe We Shouldn't Murder People'" doesn't say anything at all beyond that you attribute the actions of someone/multiple someones who have an ideology with the actions of everyone who shares that ideology.
                      I could list the reasons, however I think something to point out is me not going with the group doesn't mean I can't agree with the group on some things, even if it is their core ideology. I don't need to prescribe to BLM to believe peeps shouldn't murder. Call it unhelpful, but I'm not trying to help the movements since I do disagree with them on things as well as have other life things going on that have priority.

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                      The vagueness of your disagreements (despite it actually being useful to air those in this discussion) aside, Feminism does own the concept of equality of the sexes because that's literally the ideology at play, and while BLM might actually not own the concept of "hey police brutality is bad and a problem" disagreeing with what some people who agree with BLM do in service of that concept isn't "having issues with" BLM, it's just perceiving BLM to be a hivemind that acts in unison rather than an umbrella label for people who agree with the core ideology
                      I'm glad you think it's useful for airing discussion and I understand you think it is vague. And no, feminism doesn't own that ideology since it is what it is, "an ideology". Movements change and evolve unlike ideas. If core ideologies indicate being a part of the group, than any person that prescribes to the notion that "Everyone is responsible for their own place in society" would then be a Republican in whatever country they're in, since that is a core belief they center around. Also, I'm curious why you say Feminism does own their core concept, while BLM might not? How do you measure that or what is the "requirements" for owning an ideology your group pushes.

                      I want to make one thing clear. I'm not against the groups, nor do I have the single headed mindset that they have hiveminds. It all comes down to my concern for the "owning the ideology" in your argument. My views on the stuff and all are irrelevant to this discussion. I don't have to list them all, since regardless I'm a human being that makes decisions on his opinion and ideals. Feminism is a movement of peeps that are more outspoken on the issues regarding "equality of the sexes" and until you can prove that it is the ideology rather than just a group of activists basing their actions on that ideal, I can't really give you ground there.

                      Course, even if that was the case there's the issue on the level of "what is equality in our day and age?" which would be an interesting discussion on the matter.

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Jirachu View Post
                      I like the idea of woman (and all people, really) having equal rights and am a strong fan of 'girl power'.

                      I really dislike feminists who take their point too far, though. Like, the ones that act like girly girls don't belong in this world. I'm a girly girl, myself, so it anger's me when people are against who I am. I'm not weak! I even stood up for other people like me on another forum with a friend today, and it was a forum i've always been afraid of getting in trouble on. This show's I can be a very brave, and strong person. Feminists who would think otherwise of me are in the wrong.

                      I don't know if I count as 'feminist' or not. I don't really quite understand what the term means. I have nothing against males, though. I have male friends who I see as some of the easiest people ever to talk to. I don't get all scared talking about my childhood, for one, with males unlike with females. Because I don't care as much if they didn't grow up 'girly' as much.

                      And, in my book, females should feel EMPOWERED by liking 'feminine' and 'girly' things. If those things are refered to as those terms, there's a good reason, not a bad one.
                      It shows you can do a moment of standing up for your ideals for that instance. Peeps change and certain circumstances influence decisions to be fair.

                      I think it's a good question to ask "what is a feminist?" since that's an important question to answer "me and Aliencommander have different perspectives after all". I'd like to say that feminism isn't supposed to be against males. If it's about equality of the sexes from raising women up, it shouldn't be used as a means to "tear men down" in the process, "some things I notice in some of their activist"
                      Well, women can like whatever they like and all. I do see there is a psychological difference between male and female that needs to be kept in the equation. Men and Women behave and do things differently. Sure they're exceptions, but those aren't the rule. I do think there's Masculine and Feminine behavior that exists and both sexes can have a collection of those traits. Men tend to have more masculine than feminine traits and vise versa. There are exceptions, but they don't constitute the rule.

                      I do agree that femininity is an important thing in our society and isn't a tool to keep women down. And Masculinity has its own fair share of weak traits. Males and Females can like what they like and act how they act and it doesn't mean they aren't male or female or more male if they're more manly. It just means they're a specific type of male and likewise for females. There's nothing wrong that.
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                      Old 4 Weeks Ago (7:35 PM).
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                      Originally Posted by Gigadweeb View Post
                      Alright, so I fall into the situation where people would call me an extreme feminist, SJW, 'third-wave' (using it as a derogatory term instead of its actual definition), whatever.

                      It's honestly really disappointing looking at this thread and the misconceptions of modern feminism, and also a bit funny considering people seem to like the 'older' feminists, which is really weird considering second-wave is where a lot of the actual man-hating feminists and TERFs fall into.

                      No muk we support the equality of both sexes. Along with the recognition of minority women, trans women and non-binary people. There's a reason third-wave is known as intersectional feminism.

                      Personally, I have no problem with men, as I am a guy myself, and pretty much every feminist I've talked to on Leftbook and the meta+left circle of reddit is the same. The reason discussion tends to focus on women is because there is still a mukton of imbalance between men and women. The Hollywood rape accusations that have come out in full force in the past 6 months or so is a good indication of that. Men in positions of power are protected by other influential men. It's as simple as that. Women are threatened that they'll be kept out of the industry if they don't have sex with them, have their life ruined, whatever. This isn't new, and happens everywhere on smaller scales. That's just one example.

                      My point is, legal rights don't mean muk when it comes to the culture of a society, and pretty much all of the world is still heavily dominated by wealthy men. That's why I'm a feminist. Not because I want to see all men castrated, toothbrushes seized, white genocide, whatever like a lot of reactionaries like to delude themselves into believing.
                      This is essentially my opinion as someone who identifies as an intersectional feminist. There's a big misconception that feminism is just man-hating and that's not at all true. However, society is still a very male-dominated culture and male privilege is real and prominent. The fact that men have been allowed to harass ,assault, and abuse women for years and women are only now getting the courage to come forward, really proves that. Until women can feel like their career wont be at risk for speaking up against men in power or they're not discriminated against just for being women, feminism will continue to focus on women's rights. This mean ALL women's right, not just white men's rights. This means trans women are treated as women and women of color are given the same right as white women. But this in no way means feminist hate men, I just think we have to acknowledge that men clearly have more privilege and power than women in most industries and that is not fair. Personally I think the radical and extreme feminist who actually hate men, don't seem to understand that feminism is about them too.
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                        #66    
                      Old 1 Week Ago (8:55 AM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post


                      Feminism is and always has been about elevating the status of women in pursuit of equality. Let us not pretend, in any way, that it's something it isn't.

                      As for my own thoughts, I am all for the core belief behind feminism - equality of the sexes. I do not however consider myself a feminist nor do I support feminism as a movement for a few reason. I won't sit here and make outrageous claims that all feminists are feminazi sjw anti-man supremacist whatevers, because that simply isn't the case. The majority of the movement are probably perfectly normal people. Is there extremism in the movement? Yes, but it's not an extremist movement.
                      This is a very common fallacy ascribed by feminists, making the classic in-group error that was so rampant with BLM. Every time some BLM supporter went awol, the whole organisation would deny association and after a point it was just impossible to deny the fact that they were associated, often right until they went berserk. It's a really convenient way for radical groups to take advantage of the legitimacy of a similar group of moderates by saying "we're just like them, really," while in reality going and doing whatever and terrorising people at random.

                      There is a Chinese poem that shows how the logic goes, with someone advocating that white horses are, in fact, not horses, even though brown and yellow horses are. You should definitely give that a read. Also, the dictionary is written by human beings and is not an irrefutable source of truth on anything.
                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
                      That being said, I do have problems with the movement. Firstly, I feel like it pushes beliefs that simply are not factual. The idea that there is a collective patriarchy oppressing women, the idea that there is a culture that encourages rape or sexual assault or that there is an ever-present wage gap (although I'm sure some assholes will go out of their way to under pay don't you worry - this is still too prevalent). I don't for one second doubt that there is a lot of injustice and inequality against women in our society, but I do not believe we have a society centred around the systematic oppression of women. Are women often marginalised, yes. Is there a patriarchal conspiracy against women, no.
                      There are a lot of problems when it comes to facts and reason, and it has poisoned science itself. A good example of this is the ironically unscientific view some people have on climate change, because they think that a vast majority consensus of scientists equals truth or fact. The very foundation of a scientific hypothesis or theory is that it must be falsifiable, and if it is not, it might as well be gospel from the heavens and we know how that goes.
                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by gimmepie View Post
                      Secondly, I do not support any group that only seeks to benefit themselves (or otherwise focuses only on the rights of one group). That means feminism, BLM, MRAs, whatever twisted group think white people need to take back America - all of them. If the very nature of your movement is exclusive, then it isn't promoting equality. If you feel like your work s done when problems facing women are dealt with but issues facing men, racial issues, LGBT issues, class issues and so-forth aren't something you speak out against then you never wanted equality. Equality has to be for everyone. As Bay mentioned, even in the feminist movement itself, the focus is very clearly on what benefits middle-upper class white women compared to other females.

                      I consider myself egalitarian. Not as a thinly-veiled way to do nothing and maintain the status quo like some conservatives use the term, I want equality for everyone and I think the sooner there is a global initiative for equal rights for all, the better.
                      That's arguably the biggest problem with many purported egalitarians, is that they actually don't care at all, and want more for themselves just like you say. With the way these movements are approached, it has been demonstrated that they don't foster equality at all, and actually only have a significant effect on those who are already well-off to begin with. Because everyone wants to see some big black movie star make it and don't really care that he was born to parents of millionaires or whatever. Across the board, those who are poor and/or in need suffer the most, as they always do. It's really misguided.
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                        #67    
                      Old 17 Hours Ago (10:47 PM). Edited 16 Hours Ago by Sir 1337.
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Yoshikko View Post
                        Vehemently disagree. People who say they are for equality but against feminism always make me laugh. I think the part about feminism having become something else than what it was intended as is debatable, but your idea of what feminism is, is incorrect. Feminism is not about putting men down, it's about pulling women up to the same level. It is definitely about equality
                        Incorrect according to what authority? Moderate, Inter sectional, radical, marxist feminists, terfs, 2nd wave, 3rd wave, materialist feminists etc? What im getting at, as with any ideology its pretty subjective and very much open to interpretation, it doesnt have a concrete guidelines and i feel the turf wars within feminism really highlights this. Plus all the aforementioned self identify as feminist. In addition some of the aforementioned sub groups/people do hate men btw and numerous lovely things such as "#killallmen" on twitter dont help this argument. Off the top of my head recently i read an article by a feminist professor (Lisa Wade ) whom made the ridiculous assertion that "she rejects the notion of "toxic masculinity," saying it is time to recognize that "it is masculinity itself that has become the problem." and "argued that men must renounce their masculinity and “denounce anyone who chooses to identify with it.” There is plenty of other evidence too.

                        Also implied; https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/75/Definist-Fallacy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

                        Feminism by definition alone =/= equality or egalitarian, simply on the principle that they're only pushing for one genders rights and ignoring others which is rather self serving. https://lastedenblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/why-the-dictionary-definition-of-feminism-fails/, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_dictionarium#Feminism explain it better.

                        Quote:
                        I feel that feminism is necessary in this world, where women are still treated as lesser.
                        That would require begging the question and a whole lot of ignoring law and legislation amongst various other things (see: very anecdotal and subjective) etc. You may have a point about non western countries however or exceptions in places such as Hollywood but the latter of which is in its own little fantasy bizarre world bubble so i wouldnt say its reflective of society as a whole and is very much an outlier in that respect alluding to the scandals etc.

                        Quote:
                        Had it been the other way around, there would have been a male-focused variant
                        .

                        https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/106/Hypothesis-Contrary-to-Fact

                        There is btw called MRA etc and they dont have anywhere near the exposure of feminist groups get and have been demonized (by feminists, shock) when they campaigned for things like male suicide rates, unfair family courts and the like. Even then there is still the same issues within it as with any other ideology as i mentioned above.

                        Quote:
                        Feminism at its core is about equality. Speaking generally, if you're not a feminist, you're not against women, but you are definitely for upkeeping the current standard. Or else, you have your definitions all wrong.
                        https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma

                        Quote:
                        Logically you should have the same feelings about LGBT movements or BLM movements, since they put their focus on a particular group. Why doesn't feminism fit in here? It's the same principle. Seems to me like you just want to avoid being grouped in with the negative idea people have of feminists.

                        Most of these groups have similar issues actually and have very toxic sub groups/people within them that self identify as such, (more so in BLM) (see: demonizing white cis people or killing cops and can be very dogmatic etc).

                        I think user gimmepie sums it up perfectly with this response and words it better than myself;
                        Quote:
                        Secondly, I do not support any group that only seeks to benefit themselves (or otherwise focuses only on the rights of one group). That means feminism, BLM, MRAs, whatever twisted group think white people need to take back America - all of them. If the very nature of your movement is exclusive, then it isn't promoting equality. If you feel like your work s done when problems facing women are dealt with but issues facing men, racial issues, LGBT issues, class issues and so-forth aren't something you speak out against then you never wanted equality. Equality has to be for everyone. As Bay mentioned, even in the feminist movement itself, the focus is very clearly on what benefits middle-upper class white women compared to other females.
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                          #68    
                        Old 4 Hours Ago (11:27 AM).
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by eeveetree9 View Post
                          Feminism is (or should be) campaigning for gender equality and working to bring down the patriarchy. And bringing down the patriarchy should mean making the world an equal place for all genders, not placing women on top. I am a feminist, but I definitely don't hate men, as the stereotype seems to be. And, yes, there are probably a lot of women like that, but that's not was feminism is. Anyone who thinks that really needs to go and read Holly Bourne. And if you don't, read her books anyway. They show feminism pretty accurately.

                          You shouldn't phrase it like that, 'bringing down the patriarch'.

                          That is the aspect of rampant feminism I dislike, that "We need to topple down the men"; that goes against what you are actually saying about how you feel. But that terminology is more than just that to some extremists who really feel anti-men; ironically being sexist in their fight against sexism.

                          Someone else posted more rights for others doesn't mean LESS for others. I agree with what you wrote, but I hate that phrasing more than anything.
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                            #69    
                          Old 3 Hours Ago (1:12 PM). Edited 2 Hours Ago by Ninetales2000.
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                            As a female, I wouldn't call myself a Feminist, however, I fully support women's rights and I truly believe in the strength that women possess. I disagree with Western Feminism. Feminists nowadays complain about the most irrelevant issues, and attack and degrade men which is extremely hypocritical. Feminism is supposed to be female empowerment, not male belittlement. Moreover, feminism has become incredibly political and it seems to cater to a certain type of woman. If you don't fit that mold then you will often be ostracized by callous, hardcore feminists. REAL Feminists should concern themselves with issues such as women's education, sexual harassment, and the rights of women in countries where women are treated as second class citizens and face discrimination. However, things such as "mansplaining" aren't real problems, and feminists who whine about these make-believe issues are giving feminism a bad rap. It saddens me that so many women lose sight of what's really important. Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. Period.
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