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Old October 25th, 2018 (11:43 AM). Edited October 25th, 2018 by ruby.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adventure View Post
In DD, it's commonplace to discuss any topic brought up, more. I think.
Sure, and there have been some interesting posts from people who have gone into more detail about their feelings on their own personal experience with gender which is great.

The time for debating the existence of trans people and is over, though.

If people hold beliefs like PhoenixIgnition, they are transphobic. It's not something you have to try at, it's exactly the ignorance that they display by dictating peoples identities to them and talking over their lived experiences that shows they aren't trying to understand any of it at all, actually.
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Old October 25th, 2018 (11:56 AM). Edited October 25th, 2018 by PhoenixIgnition.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by colours View Post
    Hi! Just dropping by to mention a few things:



    Could you clarify on this? This part right here is going to rub A LOT of people the wrong way. A transgender male or female is to be referred to as that gender and whether they intend to fully transition is their business, but to say that they will "never" be that sex or "succeed" to resemble is innately transphobic and/or ignorant of you. I encourage you to educate yourself by even spending as much as five minutes on transgender reddit as that would enough to prove this statement incorrect. Transgender men/women are as legitimate as real men/women. Do not invalidate them.
    Hi! Thanks for trying to stay respectful.

    I see my phrasing wasn't clear enough.
    What I meant by '...-or succeed to resemble' meant to express that 'even if they succesfully manage to resemble'(that sex). Acknowledging it can happen.
    It obviously came across the wrong way, like 'they can't be OR successfully resemble', this wasn't what I was saying.
    Trans people actually can't become a different sex. No human being can.
    They can try to resemble it the best they can, which is what transition is. Sex reassignment surgery doesn't change your sex, neither do hormones.

    I did not say trans people are less legitimate than other people, and I did not insinuate it, I just expressed that the reality of being transgender, biologically and psychologically, is different than just 'being that sex'. That's why it's called transgenderism. that's why gender dysphoria is a thing, and that's why people who suffer from it are not just being that sex. The differentiation is important, and I wouldn't have to bring it up had I not repsonded to a person saying trans people just *are* the sex to which they transition.
    Saying a trans person is the sex with which they identify mentally, is, respectfully, wrong. That's the whole thing that causes such high distress and suicidality for trans people. It's a very tough mental condition, to be born in the wrong body.
    There's nothing wrong about trans people themselves or the transition they make, I'm just stating the reality because it was relevant to the discussion.
    Apparently either people think stating the reality of transgenderism and gender dysphoria is transphobic, or I was just very misunderstood.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by colours View Post
    LOL no it's not; it's not in the slightest rare.
    Well, I'm not gonna go to reddit for the counter arguement, but I am open to be proven wrong. Feel free to educate me with actual data(would be better in PM I fee).

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by colours View Post
    Sex-reassignment surgery is a thing. Hormone Replacement Therapy is a thing. I don't understand what about this is so difficult to understand for some cis folk. I don't understand what separates a cis woman from a transgender woman? Or a transgender male from a cis male?
    Well, it depends on what level.
    Both are human, and both will forever remain the biological sex that they were born in.
    No hormone replacement therapy or sex reassignment surgery will change that.
    It doesn't mean they're less human, it doesn't mean that their reasoning for transition, for identifying as another sex, or the hardships and feelings they experience due to gender dysphoria are any less valid. It definitely doesn't mean that they shouldn't be treated with respect, or shouldn't be referred to with the proper pronouns of the sex they transitioned to.
    It's just the reality of the issue. It's not a crime to state it, especially within context. It definitely doesn't make me or anyone else transphobic.
    I'm saddened by how quick people are to use those term. I was half expecting it, though.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ruby View Post
    If people hold beliefs like PhoenixIgnition, they are transphobic. It's not something you have to try at, it's exactly the ignorance that they display by dictating peoples identities to them and talking over their lived experiences that shows they aren't trying to understand any of it at all, actually.
    What beliefs, and how did they dictate anyone's identity?
    Who's lived experience did I talk OVER? How can I even do that on this platform?
    What about my perception of transgederism and/or gender dysphoria is wrong?
      #103   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
    Old October 25th, 2018 (12:10 PM).
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    @PhoenixIgnition

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    Old October 25th, 2018 (12:11 PM). Edited October 25th, 2018 by Raichu.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PhoenixIgnition View Post
    .
    Source on the things you claim here?

    I educated myself! Here's a very interesting read: https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027/amp

    Transgenderism is very obviously real, and some scientists say that the brain might have developed a different sex than the genitals. Which one is your "real sex"? We always do get told the inside is what counts, more than the outside, and if people really want to align socially with what they feel inside rather than with what their bodies are dressed with, why not?

    (again i'm not uh actually trying to turn this into a debate on whether or not it's real, because as many here say, it obviously is)
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    Old October 25th, 2018 (12:13 PM).
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    I agree with Juno. I don't think any offence was intended earlier in this thread—but it seems whenever someone doesn't tiptoe around the subject, it sparks a lot of sensitivity. I'm not going to pretend to know much about gender identity. Hopefully none of my remarks came off as hateful because in no way am I a hateful person. I never took the time to learn about the subject because it holds no meaning in my life, but I'd still like to hear other people's thoughts.

    Can I ask, for anyone here who identifies as transgender, what it is to be transgender? From your own personal viewpoints. Please enlighten me. I'm a country bumpkin from a redneck part of town, that kind of thing is largely discriminated against. I don't understand why. If I had the world my way, nobody would give a care about other people's gender, race, religion or sexuality, and we'd all go about our lives without labels and prejudice. :/

    • For those that haven't altered the features of their sex to align with their gender, does it bother you that you will be regarded as "cis" by default?

    • How do you express your gender if you don't wish to make said physical changes?

    • What is it about the sex you were born with that you can't identify with?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Raven
    I'm not required to be nice when lgbt people are killed, disowned, beaten, fired, denied services and over all hated for our identities.
    The way I see it, when it comes to combating bigotry, one shouldn't fight fire with fire. That usually fuels the intolerance some people feel toward those they are discriminating against, allowing the belief that they are justified in their hatred. It's easy to lash out with personal attacks and resentment, but that is only stooping to the same level.
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      #106   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
    Old October 25th, 2018 (12:36 PM). Edited October 25th, 2018 by PhoenixIgnition.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by ruby View Post
      @PhoenixIgnition

      I've seen enough of RJD, including this video. Not doing that again. I actually liked one of her videos, but the one you posted here I do not.
      Feel free to actually engage yourself in the discussion with me if you want to, with your opinions and principles, which I would still love to hear(well, read).

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by adventure View Post
      Source on the things you claim here?

      I educated myself! Here's a very interesting read: https://www.google.se/amp/s/www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-transgender-people-different-from-those-of-cisgender-people-30027/amp

      Transgenderism is very obviously real, and some scientists say that the brain might have developed a different sex than the genitals. Which one is your "real sex"? We always do get told the inside is what counts, more than the outside, and if people really want to align socially with what they feel inside rather than with what their bodies are dressed with, why not?

      (again i'm not uh actually trying to turn this into a debate on whether or not it's real, because as many here say, it obviously is)
      Hey, thanks for the link and for staying respectful!
      I scattered through it and favorited it for a later more in depth read.

      First of all, and I really need to address this: Never, actually never at any point in my life, did I think or say or insinuate that transgederism isn't real or that transgender people aren't real. Not on this forum, and not anywhere else. Ever. That's not what my original comment was even about.
      I needed to address this not specifically for you, so sorry it's in a reply to your comment.

      ANYWAY, REGARDING THE LINK:
      From what I read now, it seems like an hypothesis that has yet to gain scientific consensus, but it is interesting, and I didn't know about it. It would make sense in my non-scientific mind that this could be the case, and if so, your question would also be very good, about which sex is the real one, the one in our mind or the physical one. Right now, though, the question isn't really relevant, since it's just an hypothesis. I have no objection to this hypothesis being studied and I would have no objection to it if it was found objectively true. I have no vendetta against transgender people or transgenderism that would make me oppose this.
      Right now, though, if you were to present a counter arguement to any of my statements until now, I would prefer something a bit more concrete. This article was very nice, but it doesn't really prove nor disprove anything at this point, sadly(I really do wish things regarding gender dysphoria would be more understood, objective, and that a lot more would actually be proved and disproved about it).

      BTW, I don't know what claims you wanted source for.
        #107   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
      Old October 25th, 2018 (1:34 PM).
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      Worth noting I guess that my own feelings on the gender discussion pretty much amount to apathy. What you feel you are doesn't affect me any nor does it go against anything I feel morally so I really don't care.

      From a scientific perspective it's interesting to discuss the notion of gender maybe, but as far as what someone identifies as or whatever, that's a personal thing I don't really care about.
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      Old October 25th, 2018 (7:03 PM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by colours.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Hyzenthlay View Post
      Can I ask, for anyone here who identifies as transgender, what it is to be transgender? From your own personal viewpoints. Please enlighten me. I'm a country bumpkin from a redneck part of town, that kind of thing is largely discriminated against. I don't understand why. If I had the world my way, nobody would give a care about other people's gender, race, religion or sexuality, and we'd all go about our lives without labels and prejudice. :/
      Sure! I don't mind.

      Quote:
      • For those that haven't altered the features of their sex to align with their gender, does it bother you that you will be regarded as "cis" by default?
      hell yeah it does, but I mean, the sad truth of the matter is that the world is slow to change and slow to accept. i can't speak for every transgender person out there, but i imagine if you're living in a country (or area, even) where transphobia is ever rampant, you're not exactly going to be in a rush to correct every person that refers to you by your biological sex. by doing so, you risk outing yourself and putting your own self and your own life in danger. this seems rather extreme, but violence against transgender folk isn't exactly uncommon.

      Quote:
      • How do you express your gender if you don't wish to make said physical changes?
      I'd really love to express my gender a lot more, but considering that I'm not even out to my own family yet, I essentially feel trapped. The best I can do is "act" stereotypically girly of course, which gets interpreted as flamboyance, which leads people to just assume I'm a Humongous Homosexual Maximus.

      close enough I guess.

      Quote:
      • What is it about the sex you were born with that you can't identify with?
      everything.

      I have a burning hatred or the way I look. I hate looking at myself in the mirror, knowing that the person that's looking back isn't truly me. I cannot express enough how disgusted I feel at my own physical body on a day to day basis. It's one of the biggest factors contributing to my depression. Idk how else to explain it really; I just detest everything physical about me and want to change it all. That's all there is to it.

      ---

      To say that one would "forever remain the biological sex that they're born with" in regards to transgender folk is being a trasphobic bigot. Full-stop. You're invaliding trangender folk's way of life, their every desire to identity as their gender and transition to that sex, only to hear things that neither their transition surgery nor HRT doesn't matter because they'll always be their sex. That is disgustingly insulting and untrue.

      Quote:
      Saying a trans person is the sex with which they identify mentally, is, respectfully, wrong. That's the whole thing that causes such high distress and suicidality for trans people.
      Where is your source on this? From what I can find, this is blatantly false.

      You don't need to spend more than at least a few minutes to realize that this entire study pretty much states that the biggest reason for transgender suicide is basically either due to discrimination/harassment of some sort after either coming out or physical assault. I cannot find any evidence whatsoever that backs up your statement whatsoever.

      Heck, there's even a study that goes against what you claim -- usage of a transgender individual's chosen name (in which you're respecting the name they've chosen as well as the gender they identify as) is linked to decreased mental health risks.

      Also here are some fun tidbits:

      - Planned Parenthood even says that biological sex isn't quite so clear cut as we think. What most people refer to as "biological sex" is really just sex assigned at birth, while actual biological sex is much more complicated, as stated here:

      Quote:
      The assignment of a biological sex may or may not align with what’s going on with a person’s body, how they feel, or how they identify.
      - This March 2018 study from the American Society of Pediatrics pretty much essentially says what every other study on transgender folk says ever: those who are transgender or gender non-confirming generally are in poorer mental health because of society wanting them to conform more to their assigned sex than their actual gender identity.

      I could go on and on and on, but I believe I've made my point rather clear. It's not difficult to treat transgender folk with a shred of human decency and refer to them both by their chosen name as well as their preferred pronouns, and also treating them like the gender they identify as. It's as simple as that. Transgender folk are born and given an assigned sex based on genitalia and chromosomes, but that itself bluntly means psyduck all really -- genitalia issues can be remedied, hence SRS, and in the future it may even be possible for transgender women to conceive. So anatomy isn't really an excuse to demean and invalidate transgender folk just because they were born in a different way that they identify with now.

      I hope I've made sense with all of this. If you're someone who hasn't known anyone or isn't someone who's transgender or non-gender conforming, it may be difficult to wrap your mind around exactly what the day-to-day pain and suffering is, but that's the reality. It's safe to say that for many transgender folk, we live "trapped" (so to speak) in our own anatomical bodies until we really feel safe to express ourselves. And who knows what kind of consequences that will have? For the day to day transgender man or woman, this is what goes on in our minds.
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      Old October 25th, 2018 (8:17 PM).
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        I've been Cis male all my life.
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        Old October 26th, 2018 (4:09 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by strangerhypno View Post
        I recognize the terms from organic chemistry, cis vs trans isomers and all that. I never knew it applied to straight people
        Huh, I never knew that cis is also a chemistry term. What's it mean there?

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Lycanthropy View Post
        Putting different names on different identities only stresses some people are different than others. In my opinion, it's much easier to throw all these words out of the window and just respect everyone as they are. But hey, maybe that's just me.
        idk, I don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. There's not anything inherently wrong with labels imo. People have differences and it's ok to acknowledge those differences but at the same time keep in mind that those differences are not reason to treat people poorly and that one should indeed respect everyone.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by adventure View Post
        Oh, true... i feel like this was originally made in the Off-Topic forum o: In DD, it's commonplace to discuss any topic brought up, more. I think.
        I'm like 99% sure this was originally made in OT and then later moved to DD for reasons I wouldn't remember

        I like the thread better this way anyway, having a discussion, instead of us all just stating what our gender identity is
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        Old October 26th, 2018 (4:28 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Nah View Post
        Huh, I never knew that cis is also a chemistry term. What's it mean there?
        Chemistry crash course, let's go!~

        When talking about stereoisomers (two molecules where the same atoms are attached to each other, but who are still different), cis and trans are prefixes used to describe which of the two molecules we are talking about. Literally, the Latin word cis just means "on the same side" while trans means "on the other side".
        Here are two images I stole from Wikipedia that show the difference. On the left, we see cis-2-butene, where the two CH3-groups are on the same side of the molecule. On the right is trans-2-butene, where those groups are on opposite sides.


        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Nah View Post
        idk, I don't think that the two things are mutually exclusive. There's not anything inherently wrong with labels imo. People have differences and it's ok to acknowledge those differences but at the same time keep in mind that those differences are not reason to treat people poorly and that one should indeed respect everyone.
        Oh, I definitely agree with you there. What I was trying to say is that I think stressing the fact trans people are different might make people perceive them as people who are more different than they actually are, mostly to people who are still new to this kind of thing. A big part of the hatred for lgbt people simply comes from a lack of understanding what it means.
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          #112   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
        Old October 26th, 2018 (5:07 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          To say that one would "forever remain the biological sex that they're born with" in regards to transgender folk is being a trasphobic bigot. Full-stop. You're invaliding trangender folk's way of life, their every desire to identity as their gender and transition to that sex, only to hear things that neither their transition surgery nor HRT doesn't matter because they'll always be their sex. That is disgustingly insulting and untrue.
          It's not transphobic. It's reality.
          Nothing bigoted about it, either. You yourself haven't been making any examples of how it's bigoted or transphobic. You just throw those words out there as insults, not as any substantiated claim about the things I've said.
          Humans are all born with a biological sex, one which they cannot change currently. There are surgeries and hormone therapies but they do not change your innate biological sex. Stating that doesn't make me transphobic nor bigoted. I'm not invalidating anyone's way of life. I understand and fully accept transgender people's choice to transition. I just stated that there's a difference between transgender transition and changing your biological sex. One is possible, the other is currently not. I don't know how far off we are from getting to that point, hell we might be closer than I realise, but currently no one can change their biological sex, not with surgeries and not with hormones. If you have a study that proves me wrong on that, I'd love to see it.


          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          Where is your source on this? From what I can find, this is blatantly false.

          You don't need to spend more than at least a few minutes to realize that this entire study pretty much states that the biggest reason for transgender suicide is basically either due to discrimination/harassment of some sort after either coming out or physical assault. I cannot find any evidence whatsoever that backs up your statement whatsoever.
          This is an interesting study. However, it didn't really address my point.
          I'll explain: If the higher suicide rates among transgender people are all about the discrimination, harassment and physical assault and have nothing to do with gender dysphoria itself and/or the mental illnesses that one is prone to because of it, how is it the suicide rate is so much higher for trans people for those reasons? The rate of general society wouldn't even get close to that no matter if they've been discriminated, bullied, or abused. The moment you single out the factor of gender dysphoria it seems that the suicide rates go way up, higher when they have been suffering things like you've mentioned, but even without it it's way higher than the rest of society... Am I wrong about this too? Are the suicide rates for straight people who've been bullied the same as those of transgender people who've been bullied?(using bullying as an example, I mean any of the experiences mentioned before).

          What I meant was that the suicide rate in general for trans people is higher because of their gender dysphoria and the mental illnesses that tend to accompany it, not even including the higher rates of those who have been suffering at the hand of society. Of course the suicide rate would be higher for people who have gender dysphoria AND have been rejected, abused, bullied, etc. I had no doubt about that.

          I have one problem with the study, though, and it's the fact that it includes 'gender non-conforming' people along with transgender people.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          Heck, there's even a study that goes against what you claim -- usage of a transgender individual's chosen name (in which you're respecting the name they've chosen as well as the gender they identify as) is linked to decreased mental health risks.
          This 'study' is not in-depth enough to make a substantial enough claim.
          129 people, again including gender non-conforming people, from THREE US CITIES, is not enough for me.
          If you have another source for the same claim i'd love to see it.
          Thanks for giving me the time of day, anyway, even though you think i'm a horrible transphobic bigot.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          Also here are some fun tidbits:

          - Planned Parenthood even says that biological sex isn't quite so clear cut as we think. What most people refer to as "biological sex" is really just sex assigned at birth, while actual biological sex is much more complicated, as stated here:
          "A person with XX chromosomes usually has female sex and reproductive organs, and is therefore usually assigned biologically female.

          A person with XY chromosomes usually has male sex and reproductive organs, and is therefore usually assigned biologically male."

          The only exception to that is intersex, which is very rare.
          That's pretty simple regarding biological sex.

          Also, your biological sex is assigned to you by nature. It's not some arbitrary choice by a doctor. They don't have any choice in the matter and do not make any 'decision' for others. They just state a fact. It doesn't mean that this person can't be transgender and choose to transition and be referred to with different pronouns and all that stuff. It just means that this person's biological sex is, and forever will be the one with which they were born. A transgender is still biologically the sex they were born in. I would never call them by their biological pronouns, but we're not talking about how people choose to address trans folk, we're talking about the reality of what transgenderism and gender dysphoria are.
          While I, and most decent people would respect transgender people, call them by their proper pronouns, it wouldn't change the side of the truth that we wouldn't be talking about and exclaiming to their faces out of context(because that would be very rude and I don't see a reason to do that). It is within context here, which is why I'm talking about it. I wouldn't just bring it up in front of a transgeder person for no reasno, or just to make them feel bad.

          Anyway:
          I don't subscribe to the way of thinking that planned parenthood is using in this article regarding biological sex.
          I know and understand the differentiation betwee biological sex, the concept of gender and gender identitty. I don't fully understand why that article was relevant for our exchange.





          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          - This March 2018 study from the American Society of Pediatrics pretty much essentially says what every other study on transgender folk says ever: those who are transgender or gender non-confirming generally are in poorer mental health because of society wanting them to conform more to their assigned sex than their actual gender identity.
          Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.
          Transgender people are generally in poorer mental health first and foremost because they have GENDER DYSPHORIA and are suffering because accompanying mental illnesses, or else the suicide rates wouldn't be so much higher for specifically people who have it.
          It seems like this study claims that transgender people and GNC people are in poor mental health just because of external factors, that it has nothing to do with them having an existing mental disorder due to them gender dysphoria. That it has nothing to do with the internal struggles they face due to it. Seems wrong to me, and i'm not convinced by it.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          I could go on and on and on, but I believe I've made my point rather clear. It's not difficult to treat transgender folk with a shred of human decency and refer to them both by their chosen name as well as their preferred pronouns, and also treating them like the gender they identify as. It's as simple as that.
          You assume I don't already do that?(or maybe this wasn't aimed at me?).

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          Transgender folk are born and given an assigned sex based on genitalia and chromosomes, but that itself bluntly means **** all really -- genitalia issues can be remedied, hence SRS, and in the future it may even be possible for transgender women to conceive. So anatomy isn't really an excuse to demean and invalidate transgender folk just because they were born in a different way that they identify with now.
          I disagree. Biology is important. Truth is important even when it goes against our wants, and especially when it is within context of a discussion.
          Like I've said. I wouldn't raise this discussion with a transgender person just to spite them.
          I also did not demean transgender people. I might have invalidated claims that I found invalid, but I did not invalidate any transgender person's gender dysphoria, transition, and definitely not the facts of their hardships or way of life.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by colours View Post
          I hope I've made sense with all of this. If you're someone who hasn't known anyone or isn't someone who's transgender or non-gender conforming, it may be difficult to wrap your mind around exactly what the day-to-day pain and suffering is, but that's the reality. It's safe to say that for many transgender folk, we live "trapped" (so to speak) in our own anatomical bodies until we really feel safe to express ourselves. And who knows what kind of consequences that will have? For the day to day transgender man or woman, this is what goes on in our minds.
          I agree with everything you've said in this quote. I may not fully understand it, but empathy is a thing and I get that transgender people are suffering, that the whole thing of 'being born and trapped in the wrong body' is absolutely a horrible situation to be in.

          I have a feeling you and some other people in this discussion got the wrong idea of me, of my beliefs and principles, and especially of how I treat transgender people and gender non-conforming people.
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          Old October 26th, 2018 (5:44 AM).
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          Parts of this thread are making me profoundly uncomfortable.. Anyone who is trans is valid. Period.

          As for myself.. I think I have a hard time differentiating between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. It's a very nuanced and complex issue.
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          Old October 26th, 2018 (5:47 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Fairy View Post
          Parts of this thread are making me profoundly uncomfortable.. Anyone who is trans is valid. Period.

          As for myself.. I think I have a hard time differentiating between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. It's a very nuanced and complex issue.
          Yeah!! this is what I'm trying to say. You can't just go on about how you think a trans person isn't their gender and expect people to take it laying down?
          And they'll still refuse to listen to what I'm trying to say just because I'm harsh, but my experiences have made me harsh.

          I actually have both lol ;_; I dislike my body profoundly and it plays a major role in my self esteem.
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          Old October 26th, 2018 (6:08 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by ruby.
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by PhoenixIgnition View Post
          Feel free to actually engage yourself in the discussion with me if you want to, with your opinions and principles, which I would still love to hear(well, read).
          All you're really trying to do is assert your outdated and ignorant position, regarding an issue that you have literally no stake in whatsoever, over the many voices both professional and personal that have been provided for you here (and the other places you have been, but apparently stuck your fingers in your ears for too)

          So no thanks.
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          Old October 26th, 2018 (6:29 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by PhoenixIgnition.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Raven View Post
            Yeah!! this is what I'm trying to say. You can't just go on about how you think a trans person isn't their gender and expect people to take it laying down?
            And they'll still refuse to listen to what I'm trying to say just because I'm harsh, but my experiences have made me harsh.

            I actually have both lol ;_; I dislike my body profoundly and it plays a major role in my self esteem.
            At no point in this thread did I see a comment claiming trans people aren't their gender.
            I also don't recall someone refuting gender theory or starting a discussion about it, so I'm perplexed and intrigued as to who or what you're referring to, especially since I'm the one who has been called transphobic repeatedly in this thread, by you specifically among others, and can't help but wonder if again this is referring to me.
            No substantiation to this 'transphobic bigot' claim has been made once in any comment on this thread by anyone who has referred to me or my claims/opinons as transphobic or bigoted.
            I'm trying as best I can to be precise in my wording, so that I would convey my thoughts and feelings correctly, and my thoughts and feelings are far from having anything against trans people.

            Assuming that you might be referring to my comments:
            I haven't been talking about gender. I've been talking about biological sex. My first comment was to a person saying that transgender people are of the biological sex they transitioned to, that they don't just identify themselves with it. Not once have I claimed that a transgender person wouldn't be able to or shouldn't be able to be addressed or accepted with their preferred pronouns and stuff like that, not once have I claimed that transgender people and or transgenderism aren't real or illegitimate in any way. I definitely didn't claim that transgender people shouldn't be respected in society, but it seems somehow that's what some people gathered from my comments. Wrongfully so.

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by ruby View Post
            All you're really trying to do is assert your outdated and ignorant position, regarding an issue that you have literally no stake in whatsoever, over the many voices both professional and personal that have been provided for you here (and the other places you have been, but apparently stuck your fingers in your ears for too)

            So no thanks.
            Yeah, I absolutely understand that this is what you think, but that's not the case, it was never the case from the start.
            Sure, I asserted my position, just like any other person here. Just like YOU ARE, but there was nothing ignorant or outdated about it, unless you managed to fully misinterpret it.
            You haven't referred to any of my statements, and you refuse to engage in the discussion in any productive way. You just keep throwing unsbstantiated pejoratives(ignorant, intolerant), and using a RJD video to try and prove some point instead of using your own words, so there's no way for me to know which part you misinterpreted.
            When I read an article or a study, or listen to a person talking, I don't just automatically accept every single word I read or hear as gospel. That doesn't make me ignorant.

            You think you know what I'm really trying to do, but you're wrong.
              #117   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
            Old October 26th, 2018 (7:11 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by Yue Han.
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              Saying things like:

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by PhoenixIgnition View Post
              The trans part is almost always necessary, and absolutely always the reality.

              The only time when the 'trans' part is not necessary is when a trans person 'passes' fully as the other sex in society, resemblance-wise

              Trans people will never 'be' the sex they want to be
              Comes across as pretty thoughtlessly expressed and offensive in my opinion, especially to say such things in an opening post for your view points on such a sensitive issue.

              You can absolutely be transphobic without intent. I don't see why it's so important to someone, as the poster @ruby nicely put it "regarding an issue that you have literally no stake in whatsoever" to aggressively assert and hold trans people to the gender they are from a biological standpoint. Yes, you can't change a persons DNA, but why is this so important to you?

              Why is it so important to you to repeatedly assert trans-people will never be the biological gender their mind identifies with? Water is wet. Grass is green. Trans people do not identify with their biological gender. It very much comes across like you're trying to invalidate a trans persons identity to some degree with how strongly you're trying to argue about this. Because I read back the comments and no one explicitly said they are trans and also biologically the gender that they identify with.

              If you actually are genuinely not trying to offend can you at least understand why you're upsetting a lot of people?



              ...

              Also I'm cis-male if anyone cares.
                #118   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
              Old October 26th, 2018 (7:43 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by Raichu.
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              In a way, isn't sex just a way humans have decided to categorize what role you have in the baby making process? Trans women can't produce babies, right? And trans men probably can't do cis men's part in catalyzing that process. As such, you're kind of stuck with your reproductive sex unless you go through enormous surgery - maybe that's possible, I don't know.

              Anything beyond that, such as what you feel like, your name and your pronouns, are about gender and is a personal preference. Dysphoria can make you wish you also were of the sex that socially matches your preferred gender label. Isn't it so? I might still be misunderstanding things here, but trying to learn more.

              It's very funny when you start looking up how some animals function when it comes to sexes and gender roles. It's totally not permently binary there, afaik.
                #119   Link to this post, but load the entire thread.  
              Old October 26th, 2018 (7:51 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by PhoenixIgnition.
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Yue Han View Post
                Saying things like:



                Comes across as pretty thoughtlessly expressed and offensive in my opinion, especially to say such things in an opening post for your view points on such a sensitive issue.
                I might be a bit too straight foreward with my phrasing here, too direct and not sensitive enough. That kind of criticism I will accept whole-heartedly, but this is what I think, and I will not just roll over and accept people calling me transphobic and a bigot. That's most of the reason I kept posting here. Some people seemed more willing to actually engage in a discussion, which is the other part, but for most of this I was just trying to convey the message of:
                * not stating an opinion of trans people, just the reality of transgenderism and gender dysphoria in comparison to being born and identifying with your innate biological sex.
                Some people here seemed to interpret that as me being hateful or bigoted towards transgender people, but that's not the case.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Yue Han View Post
                You can absolutely be transphobic without intent. I don't see why it's so important to someone, as the poster @ruby nicely put it "regarding an issue that you have literally no stake in whatsoever" to aggressively assert and hold trans people to the gender they are from a biological standpoint. Yes, you can't change a persons DNA, but why is this so important to you?
                No, you can't. You can accidentally say something that could be misconstrued as transphobic, but I haven't done that either. Nothing I've said was remotely transphobic or bigoted towards anyone.
                My comments have been misinterpreted and my positions seemingly misrepresented repeatedly.
                Even when colours respectfully replied to me(well, mostly respectfully), she added a whole paragraph about how trans people are valid and real and should be respected and referred to with their preferred pronouns, as if I did the opposite of that at any point, and even she couldn't avoid referring to me as transphobic/bigoted.

                Also, english is not my first language, but I looked up the meaning of 'having stake in', and found that it means having an interest or involvement in something.
                I do have an interest in this discussion, i'm an inquisitive and curious person. I don't believe I need to transgender or an activist to participate in a discussion about transgederism.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Yue Han View Post
                Why is it so important to you to repeatedly assert trans-people will never be the biological gender their mind identifies with? Water is wet. Grass is green. Trans people do not identify with their biological gender. It very much comes across like you're trying to invalidate a trans persons identity to some degree with how strongly you're trying to argue about this. Because I read back the comments and no one explicitly said they are trans and also biologically the gender that they identify with.
                The first comment I replied to on this topic was by Raven who said 'we don't identify, we are.' and also about his calim that 'everyone in this thread sounds so intolerant of even learning about trans people.'
                I am mostly direct and a bit callous in my phrasing and the way I formulate my speech in serious discussions, which this forum is dedicated to. That's not some kind of transphobic treatment that only people here got because they were trans or because I have some kind of disdain towards transgender people.
                I repeatedly asserted it only within context of the discussion with people who respectfully engaged with me.

                I apologize if I was too direct and too insensitive, and that goes to anyone who felt this way about my comments, but I will not apologize for transphobia or bigotry, because I expressed neither of those things.

                [QUOTE=Yue Han;9941145If you actually are genuinely not trying to offend can you at least understand why you're upsetting a lot of people?[/QUOTE]
                I can understand THAT people are upset with me, and I also understand that they misinterpreted my comments, my positions and my opinions. Obviously, since I was repeatedly called transphobic, which is absolutely detached from anything I've expressed.
                I'm definitely not trying or meaning to offend anyone, but my main goal in a discussion is not to be as inoffensive as possible, but as precise as possible. If people are offended by things that I said that had no offensive intent or purpose in them. I have no control over that.
                I am sorry that they were offended, but I will not apologize for being offensive or malicious, just as I won't for being transphobic or bigoted. I wasn't.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by adventure View Post
                In a way, isn't sex just a way humans have decided to categorize what role you have in the baby making process? Trans women can't produce babies, right? And trans men probably can't do cis men's part in catalyzing that process. As such, you're kind of stuck with your reproductive sex unless you go through enormous surgery - maybe that's possible, I don't know.

                Anything beyond that, such as what you feel like, your name and your pronouns, are about gender and is a personal preference. Dysphoria can make you wish you also were of the sex that socially matches your preferred gender label. Isn't it so? I might still be misunderstanding things here, but trying to learn more.

                It's very funny when you start looking up how some animals function when it comes to sexes and gender roles. It's totally not permently binary there, afaik.
                Yup, that's about it for the most part. Obviously there's a much more in depth, complicated side to biological sex, but in our day to day lives seemingly it mostly affects how we reproduce and how we physically develop.
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                Old October 26th, 2018 (7:55 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by Raichu.
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                Let's stop debating whether or not PhoenixIgnition is transphobic or not here now. That's mostly off-topic and personal. Take it to private messages if you really want to keep discussing that (in civil tones) and let's keep discussing gender identity itself here instead.
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                Old October 26th, 2018 (8:27 AM). Edited October 26th, 2018 by Yue Han.
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                  I believe there's actually been a bit of a misunderstanding.

                  This is relevant to gender identity so I'll publicly reply to just this part.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by PhoenixIgnition View Post
                  The first comment I replied to on this topic was by Raven who said 'we don't identify, we are.'
                  I'm not Raven but I'd wager this just means trans-men are valid men, tran-women are valid women. Nothing explicit about biology! So I'd hope to think we can all agree on that!
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                  Old October 26th, 2018 (9:01 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Fairy View Post
                  As for myself.. I think I have a hard time differentiating between body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria. It's a very nuanced and complex issue.
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Raven View Post
                  I actually have both lol ;_; I dislike my body profoundly and it plays a major role in my self esteem.
                  What is the difference exactly? I had always thought that gender dysphoria was more or less something along the lines of "this body isn't right and I hate it", but going by what you've said that might not actually not the case (and chances are what I was thinking of is body dysmorphia instead?), so if someone could clarify....
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                  Old October 26th, 2018 (9:32 AM).
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                  I wish I could provide a more clinical answer. All I have are my own feelings to go off of.

                  I hate parts of my body and I view them through an irrational lens, but I don't necessarily feel like they're "not mine". I don't believe dysmorphia is exclusive to sexual characteristics, though it can include them. From what I understand about gender dysphoria, it mostly focuses on the features and functions that makes one present as more feminine or masculine. But again, I am by no means an expert.
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                  Old October 26th, 2018 (11:04 AM).
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                    i have gender dysphoria. for me at least it's sort of like.. ah. it's hard to explain. i feel like the body i was born in... doesn't fit me? it isn't mine. no to get tmi, but, im fine with my bottom part. it's mostly just my chest area that bothers me. if i were to get rid of that, or at least get it reduced, i'd probably have a lot less gender dysphoria.

                    i dunno. it's hard to explain. i'm trying to explain it in a way thats easy to understand, but even i have a hard time understanding it sometimes myself. idk why i am the way i am.
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                    Old October 30th, 2018 (7:29 PM). Edited October 30th, 2018 by Alyssandra.
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                      Cisgendered woman. I feel like I model the stereotype well, too. Not super in to "masculine" interests and activities. My room looks like unicorn vomit.

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Fairy View Post
                      I wish I could provide a more clinical answer. All I have are my own feelings to go off of.

                      I hate parts of my body and I view them through an irrational lens, but I don't necessarily feel like they're "not mine". I don't believe dysmorphia is exclusive to sexual characteristics, though it can include them. From what I understand about gender dysphoria, it mostly focuses on the features and functions that makes one present as more feminine or masculine. But again, I am by no means an expert.
                      Basically this, yeah. Gender dysmorphia is when you look at your body and feel cognitive distress related to how your self-interpretation and -evaluation of gender identity does not match that with which you were assigned at birth. Body dysmorphia is different in that it affects your interpretation of your physical body as being constantly imperfect in some highly distressing ways. For example, the anoxeric individual who looks in the mirror and sees obesity. What [s]he is seeing is a perception that does not actually match reality, but it is his/her reality with very real consequences, thus why it is self-destructive and medically serious if left to its own whims.

                      Another example that is less typical includes the person who is obsessed with people being able to see body hair that is essentially invisible and cannot not be preoccupied with tweasing out what may or may not actually be there to begin with. This latter example may also border on OCD depending on what else presents itself alongside this behaviour. A psychiatrist would have to determine if it is body dysmorphia, OCD, or a little bit of both.
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