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Old January 20th, 2018 (12:25 PM).
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https://www.npr.org/2018/01/20/579314199/government-shuts-down-as-congress-fails-to-pass-funding-measure

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The federal government is in the midst of a partial shutdown, and it appears it will be that way for some time.

Members of the House and Senate reconvened at the Capitol on Saturday to try to find a way to resolve the impasse. There was hope lawmakers would quickly take up a patchwork resolution that is all of one week shorter than the measure that failed late Friday night in the Senate.

But it's not clear what path there is to a compromise, as Republican leaders made it clear they will not negotiate on immigration while the government is shut down.
Closed for the first time since 2013.
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Old January 20th, 2018 (1:20 PM).
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Too bad those two bipartisan attempts at funding got shut down by a certain someone huh?

Now I can't even drop off this psyducking 200 dollar package at the post office; Because it's unlocked but NO ONE IS PSYDUCKING THERE! If I loose my ebay sale over this I swear to god, I'm going to do something horrible.

Bet my check wont arrive this tuesday either.

I am psyducked for cash because a bunch of racist hillbillies and oversensitive SJW fanbases need to be pandered to.

I hate this country more every day...
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Old January 20th, 2018 (1:52 PM). Edited January 20th, 2018 by Ivysaur.
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I don't think Trump and Paul Ryan refusing to pass the bipartisan DACA bill agreed by the Senate even though they claim to support it is "petty squabbling". Without it, hundreds of thousands of people who have been living as Americans since they were kids will be deported to a country they barely know as soon as March. And Trump nominally supports the bill! It even includes funding for The Wall! But the House GOP extremists demand nothing less than deporting those people for the crime of being non-white. I think this is far more serious than it sounds.

If only the GOP came out and openly said "we lied, we do want to deport them! White power!", we at least would know what to argue about. But right now, they are saying -at the same time- that they support the DACA+Border Security+Wall bill and also that they refuse to pass it. It's beyond insane.
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Old January 20th, 2018 (3:00 PM).
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    Has anyone even read the bill?
    Has anyone gone into the stuff and looked at it?
    Has anyone actually looked at how the wall is coming and stuff?

    I'm not saying my opinion on the matter or my views, but just curious if peeps have looked at these things from all sides/delved into reading the actual product and not a paraphrasing of it.
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    Old January 20th, 2018 (9:06 PM). Edited January 20th, 2018 by KetsuekiR.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ivysaur View Post
    I don't think Trump and Paul Ryan refusing to pass the bipartisan DACA bill agreed by the Senate even though they claim to support it is "petty squabbling". Without it, hundreds of thousands of people who have been living as Americans since they were kids will be deported to a country they barely know as soon as March. And Trump nominally supports the bill! It even includes funding for The Wall! But the House GOP extremists demand nothing less than deporting those people for the crime of being non-white. I think this is far more serious than it sounds.

    If only the GOP came out and openly said "we lied, we do want to deport them! White power!", we at least would know what to argue about. But right now, they are saying -at the same time- that they support the DACA+Border Security+Wall bill and also that they refuse to pass it. It's beyond insane.
    That's quite an unfair and one-sided point of view, so I'll provide the other end of it.

    I think the left wants a shutdown, just to prove a point, seeing as DACA continues until March, and Democrats are asking for full amnesty right now - which is definitely not something Republicans would agree with. This is what's causing the "petty squabbling". On the other hand, CHIP funding ends now.

    Wasn't it Minority Leader Sen. Schumer himself who said a shutdown is politics of idiocy, or something along those lines, in 2013? Why not agree to put DACA aside and fund the government, with the idea of negotiating it later on? There doesn't seem to be a great point in causing a shutdown over one program that lasts for a couple of months more anyway.
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    Old January 21st, 2018 (7:13 AM). Edited January 21st, 2018 by Ivysaur.
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
    That's quite an unfair and one-sided point of view, so I'll provide the other end of it.

    I think the left wants a shutdown, just to prove a point, seeing as DACA continues until March, and Democrats are asking for full amnesty right now - which is definitely not something Republicans would agree with. This is what's causing the "petty squabbling". On the other hand, CHIP funding ends now.

    Wasn't it Minority Leader Sen. Schumer himself who said a shutdown is politics of idiocy, or something along those lines, in 2013? Why not agree to put DACA aside and fund the government, with the idea of negotiating it later on? There doesn't seem to be a great point in causing a shutdown over one program that lasts for a couple of months more anyway.
    It was also Trump who said that shutdowns are failure of leadership on the president's behalf and that he's the only one responsible for them.

    Either way, Republicans have said they nominally support "full amnesty", aka continuing DACA in their current form. If they don't, they should come out publically and announce it, otherwise they are just being hypocritical. If the argument is "let's wait until the very last deadline", then imagine how it'd feel if you are one of those people who has been living in the US for their entire lives, with a family and a job, and you are told to wait until the very last day to know if you'll be deported to what is essentially a foreign country for you or instad allowed to stay. There is a bipartisan bill on DACA, why not just hold a vote?

    Also, it's hilarious to see them screaming about how "Democrats don't want to fund CHIP" but when Dem senators introduced a bill to fund CHIP outside of the CR, Mitch McConnell voted it down.
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    Old January 21st, 2018 (7:30 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ivysaur View Post
    It was also Trump who said that shutdowns are failure of leadership on the president's behalf and that he's the only one responsible for them.

    Either way, Republicans have said they nominally support "full amnesty", aka continuing DACA in their current form. If they don't, they should come out publically and announce it, otherwise they are just being hypocritical. If the argument is "let's wait until the very last deadline", then imagine how it'd feel if you are one of those people who has been living in the US for their entire lives, with a family and a job, and you are told to wait until the very last day to know if you'll be deported to what is essentially a foreign country for you or instad allowed to stay. There is a bipartisan bill on DACA, why not just hold a vote?

    Also, it's hilarious to see them screaming about how "Democrats don't want to fund CHIP" but when Dem senators introduced a bill to fund CHIP outside of the CR, Mitch McConnell voted it down.
    No, the fault is on both sides for not being able to come to an agreement. That said, how have Republicans nominally supported full amnesty? That has never been the case.

    Secondly, why cause a shutdown over DACA if there is plenty of time to negotiate it? The new budget doesn't remove DACA.
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    Old January 21st, 2018 (11:32 AM).
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      I put the fault on the Democrats. They’re fighting to keep an illegal program going.
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      Old January 21st, 2018 (1:45 PM). Edited January 21st, 2018 by Nah.
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      Yeah so could someone explain something to me please?

      Government shutdowns occur when Congress+the President are unable to agree upon a bill to fund itself, yes? So why is a different bill, regarding immigration and not funding, what apparently caused the shutdown?

      I'm just kinda not getting what the relation is between DACA and the shutdown is here
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      Old January 21st, 2018 (3:29 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Nah View Post
        Yeah so could someone explain something to me please?

        Government shutdowns occur when Congress+the President are unable to agree upon a bill to fund itself, yes? So why is a different bill, regarding immigration and not funding, what apparently caused the shutdown?

        I'm just kinda not getting what the relation is between DACA and the shutdown is here
        Basically, if the Democrats get the DACA program placed in the budget, it will be funded and approved for the year and won’t end just because the President canceled it.
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        Old January 21st, 2018 (3:34 PM). Edited January 21st, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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          Because these politicians get butthurt when they're side don't get their way, they start conflict with eachother, and temporarily shut themselves down until they get it under control. That's all they know how to do. Rob the US citizens and bicker back and forth over anything and everything. Politicians are doing nothing but proving how much of a tool they are.

          EDIT: IMHO, if the government wants to shut down. That should mean no paychecks for these politicians.. Wait, that would never happen!!
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          Old January 24th, 2018 (10:04 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Nah View Post
          Yeah so could someone explain something to me please?

          Government shutdowns occur when Congress+the President are unable to agree upon a bill to fund itself, yes? So why is a different bill, regarding immigration and not funding, what apparently caused the shutdown?

          I'm just kinda not getting what the relation is between DACA and the shutdown is here
          It's part of negotiation. The Republicans, although they control the Senate by a slim margin, could be blocked by Democrats from moving from the debate stage to the voting stage. Trump ended DACA and told Congress to figure it out, but Congress being Congress they couldn't get anything done because, even though most people are in favor of protecting Dreamers, the Republican leaders wouldn't allow a vote just on the DACA issue alone. Lots of senators and interests want it tied up in "immigration reform" like border security, the "wall", and other issues. Democrats made DACA their sticking point in negotiations.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by ShinyUmbreon189 View Post
          Because these politicians get butthurt when they're side don't get their way, they start conflict with eachother, and temporarily shut themselves down until they get it under control. That's all they know how to do. Rob the US citizens and bicker back and forth over anything and everything. Politicians are doing nothing but proving how much of a tool they are.

          EDIT: IMHO, if the government wants to shut down. That should mean no paychecks for these politicians.. Wait, that would never happen!!
          I wouldn't necessarily characterize it this way, but the general vibe is pretty accurate. Politicians are often too beholden to interests to have honest negotiation so they posture in the public eye in the hopes of maintaining favor for their constituents, who might replace them.
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          Old January 26th, 2018 (3:15 AM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
            I put the fault on the Democrats. They’re fighting to keep an illegal program going.
            For the party that's the legislative minority right now, they sure seem to be easy to blame when things don't get passed for some reason? I guess the republicans that voted with them just faded out of existence afterwards and we don't need to critically look at the (previously near bipartisan) issue at all because it's just Those Dastardly Dems again, doing their dastardly things

            It's.... not at all illegal though? I'm not really sure where you picked that idea up, because they wouldn't be able to do it if it was illegal, and a serious discussion about it wouldn't be had.
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            Old January 26th, 2018 (9:30 AM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
              For the party that's the legislative minority right now, they sure seem to be easy to blame when things don't get passed for some reason? I guess the republicans that voted with them just faded out of existence afterwards and we don't need to critically look at the (previously near bipartisan) issue at all because it's just Those Dastardly Dems again, doing their dastardly things

              It's.... not at all illegal though? I'm not really sure where you picked that idea up, because they wouldn't be able to do it if it was illegal, and a serious discussion about it wouldn't be had.
              http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/05/here-are-four-ways-in-which-daca-is-illegal/
              https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/july-31-2013/federal-judge-rules-daca-likely-violates-law-dismisses-ice-agents-suit-t

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4BIWiWyQg

              Congress refused to pass or amend the immigration laws so Obama bypassed Congress. The only reason it hadn't been removed earlier is that most politicians don't want to be the "bad guy" and go against the President and risk election chances by deporting the "poor children".

              DAPA was an attempt to expand DACA and states sued against it as unconstitutional and illegal. The President can't simply use executive orders to bypass Congress.
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              Old January 26th, 2018 (2:50 PM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
              http://dailycaller.com/2017/09/05/here-are-four-ways-in-which-daca-is-illegal/
              https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/july-31-2013/federal-judge-rules-daca-likely-violates-law-dismisses-ice-agents-suit-t

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw4BIWiWyQg

              Congress refused to pass or amend the immigration laws so Obama bypassed Congress. The only reason it hadn't been removed earlier is that most politicians don't want to be the "bad guy" and go against the President and risk election chances by deporting the "poor children".

              DAPA was an attempt to expand DACA and states sued against it as unconstitutional and illegal. The President can't simply use executive orders to bypass Congress.
              One of the Executive Branch's roles is to enforce the law. DACA is a program that says that the law won't be enforce in one particular area. DACA is not a law and is not illegal.

              I would place a lot of blame on the Republicans for the bill not passing, but I understand why they are obstructing its passage. When Reagan was president, Republicans agreed to grant amnesty to a lot of illegal immigrants (at least a million I think) in return for increased border security. The former occurred, but the latter did not. It makes sense for them to want to have guaranteed border security before doing anything about DACA or granting amnesty. In addition, by securing the border before granting amnesty, the inventive to illegally cross the border is decreased relative to granting amnesty and then securing the border.
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              Old January 26th, 2018 (6:09 PM).
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                When Reagan was president, Republicans agreed to grant amnesty to a lot of illegal immigrants (at least a million I think) in return for increased border security. The former occurred, but the latter did not. It makes sense for them to want to have guaranteed border security before doing anything about DACA or granting amnesty. In addition, by securing the border before granting amnesty, the inventive to illegally cross the border is decreased relative to granting amnesty and then securing the border.
                To add on to this, the issue is that border security is effectively a non-issue when we're talking about immigration (It's mostly overstaying visas and air travel ect rather than physically crossing the border?) and what the GOP is doing is digging in their heels and trying for a hardline stance on immigration.

                This is a very pressing issue with a very hard deadline that's already hurt a lot of people by taking so long to even be talked about, the GOP is offering temporary assurances with a ton of painful and difficult to maintain caveats in what dreamers have to do to keep their status in exchange for what're effectively ridiculous crackdowns on immigration in general. It's not at all workable, and to have a tantrum and blame the minority in all three houses when your genuinely bad bill doesn't pass is just sad
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                Old January 26th, 2018 (7:57 PM).
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                To add on to this, the issue is that border security is effectively a non-issue when we're talking about immigration (It's mostly overstaying visas and air travel ect rather than physically crossing the border?) and what the GOP is doing is digging in their heels and trying for a hardline stance on immigration.

                This is a very pressing issue with a very hard deadline that's already hurt a lot of people by taking so long to even be talked about, the GOP is offering temporary assurances with a ton of painful and difficult to maintain caveats in what dreamers have to do to keep their status in exchange for what're effectively ridiculous crackdowns on immigration in general. It's not at all workable, and to have a tantrum and blame the minority in all three houses when your genuinely bad bill doesn't pass is just sad
                You need 60 votes to pass a CR, which means majority-minority matters little seeing as the majority doesn't have 60 seats. On top of this, Democrats, especially Chuck Schumer openly admitted they were deliberately shutting down the government over DACA and the Dreamers, so to say they aren't to blame is counterproductive.
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                Old January 26th, 2018 (8:18 PM).
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                  Quote:
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                  One of the Executive Branch's roles is to enforce the law. DACA is a program that says that the law won't be enforce in one particular area. DACA is not a law and is not illegal.
                  I refer you back to the this link in which the judge states that DACA is likely illegal as it directly contradicts a congressional mandate. It's doesn't have to be a law to be illegal.


                  https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/july-31-2013/federal-judge-rules-daca-likely-violates-law-dismisses-ice-agents-suit-t
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                  Old January 26th, 2018 (8:25 PM).
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                    Quote:
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                    You need 60 votes to pass a CR, which means majority-minority matters little seeing as the majority doesn't have 60 seats. On top of this, Democrats, especially Chuck Schumer openly admitted they were deliberately shutting down the government over DACA and the Dreamers, so to say they aren't to blame is counterproductive.
                    The issue is that republicans voted with the democrats here against it, and that this very explicitly wasn't just democrats having a tantrum like the republican led, obama era one was.

                    Saying they deliberately shut down the government over the DACA and Dreamers is kind of misleading, because the intent wasn't to shut down the government with the use of those issues/people as mere pawns in the plan, the government shutting down was a result of a refusal to accept the (really, really bad) deal presented for them.

                    I lay the blame solely at the feet of the republicans for creating an unworkable situation.
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                    Old January 26th, 2018 (8:49 PM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                    The issue is that republicans voted with the democrats here against it, and that this very explicitly wasn't just democrats having a tantrum like the republican led, obama era one was.

                    Saying they deliberately shut down the government over the DACA and Dreamers is kind of misleading, because the intent wasn't to shut down the government with the use of those issues/people as mere pawns in the plan, the government shutting down was a result of a refusal to accept the (really, really bad) deal presented for them.

                    I lay the blame solely at the feet of the republicans for creating an unworkable situation.
                    A really bad deal on the basis of DACA. It's hard to claim the Dems refused the bill for all reasons when openly they've admitted DACA is the sole cause of their blocking the CR. Keeping in mind that DACA is an unconstitutional bypassing of the law and the fact that it continues until March and this is January, there was no reason to cause a shutdown. This wasn't over the entire bill, this was over one program, according to the Dems themselves.

                    Also, many of the Dem congress members are still condemning fact that fhe shutdown ended stating they wanted it to continu until they got what they wanted. This also makes it harder to verify they didn't want a shutdown.
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                    Old January 26th, 2018 (9:18 PM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                      The issue is that republicans voted with the democrats here against it, and that this very explicitly wasn't just democrats having a tantrum like the republican led, obama era one was.

                      Saying they deliberately shut down the government over the DACA and Dreamers is kind of misleading, because the intent wasn't to shut down the government with the use of those issues/people as mere pawns in the plan, the government shutting down was a result of a refusal to accept the (really, really bad) deal presented for them.

                      I lay the blame solely at the feet of the republicans for creating an unworkable situation.
                      Republicans didn't have enough of a majority to be able to ignore the demands of the Dems. See other comments about the Dems stating they'd shutdown the gov't other it. It doesn't matter that a few Reps went along with it. It still needed Dem votes to pass.

                      Amusing how if its a Democrat Pres, its the Republicans fault for not going along with demands of the people who voted the Dem Pres in and then when its a Rep Pres, its the fault of the Reps for somehow creating the situation and not the fault of the Dems for not going along with the public that voted the Rep Pres in.
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                      Old January 26th, 2018 (9:49 PM).
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                      I refer you back to the this link in which the judge states that DACA is likely illegal as it directly contradicts a congressional mandate. It's doesn't have to be a law to be illegal.


                      https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/july-31-2013/federal-judge-rules-daca-likely-violates-law-dismisses-ice-agents-suit-t
                      And how many judges would believe that DACA is legal? Each judge interprets the law differently. The opinion of a judge is very important, but to base your argument on that is weak.
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                      Old January 26th, 2018 (11:05 PM).
                      Aliencommander1245 Aliencommander1245 is offline
                         
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
                        Amusing how if its a Democrat Pres, its the Republicans fault for not going along with demands of the people who voted the Dem Pres in and then when its a Rep Pres, its the fault of the Reps for somehow creating the situation and not the fault of the Dems for not going along with the public that voted the Rep Pres in.
                        The obama era shutdown was a part of larger petty republican obstructionism, but was also not in response to actions that were part of the budget itself. Repbulicans, out of options as every other legislative and legal attempt to stop Obamacare failed, refused to pass the budget unless obamacare was defunded in what was effectively a dying gasp of a tantrum.

                        The issue at hand here is very different from an attempt to stop something good that's been legally and legislatively instated


                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
                        Keeping in mind that DACA is an unconstitutional bypassing of the law and the fact that it continues until March and this is January, there was no reason to cause a shutdown. This wasn't over the entire bill, this was over one program, according to the Dems themselves.
                        Which.... was part of the bill, regardless of how you want to spin the portion of the bill that it took up. But you're outright wrong that it's unconstitutional bypassing of the law?

                        It's never been found to be unconstitutional (which is literally the only difference between being unconstitutional and constitutional) and despite legal experts being rather divided on doesn't make illegal or unconstitutional.

                        Quote:
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                        Also, many of the Dem congress members are still condemning fact that fhe shutdown ended stating they wanted it to continu until they got what they wanted. This also makes it harder to verify they didn't want a shutdown.
                        No one is saying that they didn't want a shutdown, just that the shutdown was the inevitable result of putting forward something they wouldn't vote for and attempts to sway them for voting for it by not actually addressing the main issue is neither helpful nor useful
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                        Old January 26th, 2018 (11:32 PM). Edited January 27th, 2018 by KetsuekiR.
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                        Originally Posted by Aliencommander1245 View Post
                        The obama era shutdown was a part of larger petty republican obstructionism, but was also not in response to actions that were part of the budget itself. Repbulicans, out of options as every other legislative and legal attempt to stop Obamacare failed, refused to pass the budget unless obamacare was defunded in what was effectively a dying gasp of a tantrum.

                        The issue at hand here is very different from an attempt to stop something good that's been legally and legislatively instated
                        I agree, what the Republicans did in 2013 was a dying tantrum to stop one part of the bill that they really didn't want. How exactly is this different from what the Democrats did a week ago? And yet, in 2013 it was their fault and in 2018, it's still their fault.

                        As for "something good", DACA is still very much open to discussion. The program hasn't ended and will continue to be open to discussion until March. So in effect, what the Dems did was a dying tantrum to stop one part of a bill they didn't really want but still could be negotiated.


                        Quote:
                        Which.... was part of the bill, regardless of how you want to spin the portion of the bill that it took up. But you're outright wrong that it's unconstitutional bypassing of the law?

                        It's never been found to be unconstitutional (which is literally the only difference between being unconstitutional and constitutional) and despite legal experts being rather divided on doesn't make illegal or unconstitutional.
                        It is very much unconstitutional to use executive power to bypass existing, clear immigration laws. President Obama himself stated he could not do it via Congress and thus had to use his power as the President. Even now, it continues as a bypassing of existing laws, not as a one put through Congress. As per the Constitution, Congress has absolute authority on immigration laws and the President has never had the power to grant amnesty at will to an entire society of illegal aliens.

                        Even if this wasn't the case, how are you comfortable with allocating to a single person the power to overrule immigration laws, completely skipping Congress?
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                        Old January 27th, 2018 (12:27 AM).
                        Aliencommander1245 Aliencommander1245 is offline
                           
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
                          I agree, what the Republicans did in 2013 was a dying tantrum to stop one part of the bill that they really didn't want. How exactly is this different from what the Democrats did a week ago? And yet, in 2013 it was their fault and in 2018, it's still their fault.
                          A dying tantrum after exhausting all other options to try and remove a good thing put legally and legislatively in place isn't at all the same as not voting for a bill because it holds parts that you disagree with and isn't acting on a very pressing issue. There's a very clear difference in doing something in what amounts to shutting down the government for pointscoring versus having it be used to be in a position to actually negotiate something related to the bill that they didn't like (that the majority of the population wants, and that was promised to be negotiated about and yet still not) because you've been put in a bad position to start with.

                          Dreamers having no

                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
                          As for "something good", DACA is still very much open to discussion. The program hasn't ended and will continue to be open to discussion until March. So in effect, what the Dems did was a dying tantrum to stop one part of a bill they didn't really want but still could be negotiated.
                          But it wasn't negotiated, which is why they didn't vote for it? How is voting against the bill based on that part of it somehow a dying tantrum?

                          The program hasn't ended but the position it's in now is progressively cutting people out of it as time goes on, which is why it's such a pressing issue



                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by KetsuekiR View Post
                          It is very much unconstitutional to use executive power to bypass existing, clear immigration laws. President Obama himself stated he could not do it via Congress and thus had to use his power as the President. Even now, it continues as a bypassing of existing laws, not as a one put through Congress.
                          That's not true at all, it's not at all unconstituional and despite going to the courts it's never been ruled as such, and there's no legal consensus if it is or not. Obama didn't state that he "couldn't do it via congress" he said that it was a stop gap until a Dreamers bill could be put through congress (which it still hasn't been).
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