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Old November 10th, 2018 (4:37 AM).
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Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me.
you keep saying this, but I don't see what point you're trying to make here
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Old November 10th, 2018 (6:01 AM).
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    Originally Posted by Catnip~ View Post
    Now maybe I'm wrong, but when people refer to a "bad day" they don't mean just any bad day
    A lot of people suffering from mental illness or depression try to hide it, and can appear just fine on the outside while on the inside they're in a really bad place. When this happens, even small things can add up, so it's not just any bad day, it's a bad day that ends up leading to a mental breakdown
    Unfortunately most antigun people seem to believe that any gun owner will have a bad day and simply lash out in anger.

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    Originally Posted by PhoenixIgnition View Post
    Here's what I think about the gun issue in the US, from my outsider non-american perspective:

    It seems that like a lot of issues in america, a tiny minority of psychos causes wide-spread hysteria which threatens the way of life of the vast majority of people, who are sane and law-abiding.
    There does seem to be a bit of hysteria in the demands to immediately do something.

    Quote:
    From what I know, and correct me if i'm wrong, acquiring a gun legally in the US is not as easy as just going out and buying it. Not just anyone can do it legally. It seems like the problem lies mostly with people who don't have a criminal/mental history, get a gun and then commit a crime with it that's fueled by an undiagnosed, unnoticed mental disorder. Of course there is also the criminals who acquire guns illegally.
    . Most gun control laws affect the law abiding more than criminals. Id rather see more laws that punish criminal use of a gun. Mandatory jail time.

    Quote:
    The thing is... It seems like anti-gunners just want to take away guns from the general population and/or make it unnecesarilly harder for people to get them, rather than trying to attack the root of the problem, which really doesn't lie with the general population or some lenient gun policies and laws, but rather with a tiny minority of the general population, and some criminals who will get guns illegally anyway and aren't affected by the strictness of the law in any state regarding gun ownership.
    Yep.

    Quote:
    The only thing I think can and should be made stricter, is the psych evaluation process. I think any business selling guns should be required to demand a thourough psych evaluation from anyone coming to purchase a gun.
    . And I disagree. Psych evaluations are time consuming and will only catch the obviously and immediately dangerous. It wont predict with any large degree of accuracy the people that may eventually snap. And what shrink will sign off on this? If theyre wrong one way, they get sued by victims. If they are wrong the other way, the buyer sues for denial of a Constitutional Right.
    See the Rosenhan experiment.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
    Values dissonance, my friend. You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me.
    It feels wrong to me that law abiding citizens arent allowed to purchase weapons due to the actions of others.

    Quote:
    I can't help it. That said, every human life is worth the same no matter where they live.
    Most people find their own lives to be of more value than a random strangers. Ask them to give up their own life to save someone else and see what they say. Add negative things to the other person. Save a Nazi or junkie at the expense of your own?



    Quote:
    True. But that still leaves the issue of guns being a 'right' in first place. If you know how, you can easily get one. There's a reason why that isn't the case over here in EU at all. If some people thing we are less free because of it, I think it's obvious they have never been here in first place.
    Its only an issue to you. People who know how can get a gun anywhere. Or make one.
    Less free in certain values. Im not going to get arrested for having a pocket knife or expressing something the government has decided they dont like.
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    Old November 10th, 2018 (7:08 AM).
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      LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws. And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.
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      Old November 10th, 2018 (8:16 AM).
      LDSman LDSman is offline
         
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        Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
        LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws.
        Laws I consider short sighted and often foolish.

        Quote:
        And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.
        I dont consider other peoples lives as worthless. In certain circumstances, a persons life can be worth less than others, ie not as highly valued.

        Would you sacrifice your life for a Nazi? Or a mother of two? Or a cancer patient who will die in days? Not dying saving their lives but some person shows up and says your life or theirs?

        If you could pass a gun law that could in theory save the number of people equal to half of last years US gun deaths (homicides, not suicides) but would result in half the US gun owners being killed or imprisoned would you pass that law?
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        Old November 10th, 2018 (8:17 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
          LDSman: Then ask yourself this: Why we Europeans can't buy weapons in the same manner as you do? It's because of laws. And for a good reason too. And yes, while I do regard my own life as important thank you very much, I'm not heartless to consider other's lives as worthless.

          Stop putting your two cents on a subject that is clearly alien to you.
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          Old November 10th, 2018 (10:13 AM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
            Laws I consider short sighted and often foolish.


            I dont consider other peoples lives as worthless. In certain circumstances, a persons life can be worth less than others, ie not as highly valued.

            Would you sacrifice your life for a Nazi? Or a mother of two? Or a cancer patient who will die in days? Not dying saving their lives but some person shows up and says your life or theirs?

            If you could pass a gun law that could in theory save the number of people equal to half of last years US gun deaths (homicides, not suicides) but would result in half the US gun owners being killed or imprisoned would you pass that law?
            The dilemma is this. Obviously being a Nazi is bad. And so are rapists and other criminal. The thing is, they are still human beings and they all deserve being treated as the human beings they ACTUALLY are. In other words, they're not monsters. I guess you do want the same thing as I, yes? Eradicating all crime. The key is to eliminate the possibility that a crime would ever occur. Take a close look a the circumstances why someone would CHOOSE a life of crime in first place and hopefully you will get it.

            Yes, I would pass such a law. But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.
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            Old November 10th, 2018 (10:27 AM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
              Yes, I would pass such a law. But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.
              ^ You don't understand the USA, so you don't understand why this won't work. Gun owners aren't going to turn their guns into the Government, because they don't believe they are the issue. Why turn in your guns when you are a responsible gun owner? :/
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              Old November 10th, 2018 (11:09 AM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by LDSman.
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                The dilemma is this. Obviously being a Nazi is bad. And so are rapists and other criminal. The thing is, they are still human beings and they all deserve being treated as the human beings they ACTUALLY are. In other words, they're not monsters.
                . I notice you didnt answer the question.


                Quote:
                I guess you do want the same thing as I, yes? Eradicating all crime.
                sure. Pipe dream though.
                Quote:
                The key is to eliminate the possibility that a crime would ever occur.
                . Wrong. Eliminate the desire or need to. If no one wants to rob their neighbors then you wont need to disarm them. It wont matter. That only works for the crimes related to desire though. Wont stop passion related issues.
                Quote:
                Take a close look a the circumstances why someone would CHOOSE a life of crime in first place and hopefully you will get it.
                . Some are forced into others willfully choose it. Why work if I can just take it from someone else?

                Quote:
                Yes, I would pass such a law.
                . And that is why I dislike antigun activists. You would kill or imprison millions to possibly save thousands.
                Quote:
                But the key is doing what Australia did all those years ago. Having to turn your weapons voluntarily with the possibility of a monetary compensation is quite an attractive proposition.
                1. It wasnt voluntary!!
                2. The US govt could not afford to pay the actual cost of the guns.
                3. The US would have no idea who owns what.
                4. Most gun owners would prefer the guns over the cash. Would you give up a family heirloom for a little bit of money?
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                Old November 10th, 2018 (11:52 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by MortalPhoenix View Post
                  ^ You don't understand the USA, so you don't understand why this won't work. Gun owners aren't going to turn their guns into the Government, because they don't believe they are the issue. Why turn in your guns when you are a responsible gun owner? :/
                  Sure. But the dilemma is that guns aren't a 'right' over here and I'm ok with it. If you absolutely MUST have a gun, self-defence isn't concidered a valid reason for owning one in first place. Again, values dissonance you know. I'm just concerned over the future of America's children. I don't need to be afraid of some madman waiting to shoot some place up.
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                  Old November 10th, 2018 (12:14 PM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                  Sure. But the dilemma is that guns aren't a 'right' over here and I'm ok with it. If you absolutely MUST have a gun, self-defence isn't concidered a valid reason for owning one in first place. Again, values dissonance you know. I'm just concerned over the future of America's children. I don't need to be afraid of some madman waiting to shoot some place up.
                  "Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.

                  And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by MortalPhoenix View Post
                  Stop putting your two cents on a subject that is clearly alien to you.
                  I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.
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                  Old November 10th, 2018 (12:22 PM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by BronzeHeart92.
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Nah View Post
                    "Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.

                    And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.
                    Yes, that might be true. But hey, that's why I'm concerned really. No one needs to die needlessly after all. And since nothing lasts forever, the day when people of cities such as Newark can stop living in fear might come after all. All that's needed is patience.

                    Quote:
                    I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.
                    Absolutery agree with you. That's how they win everytime really. They ramble on and on in hopes that the ones opposing their ideology gives up and quit. And rest assured, even if I was born and raised in USA, I would never touch a gun regardless. Because that goes against my very nature.
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                    Old November 10th, 2018 (12:45 PM).
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                    Honestly? I still think it's a complicated problem with no immediate answer. I mean sure we could say "haha let's ban guns" but then I'm certain there are more than enough gun owners who aren't thinking about shooting up a Madden tournament that would feel their right to bear arms (as well as right to self-defense) are immediately thrown out the window. And the people who are out here snapping with guns would probably find a way to get their hands on one anyway. Not really interested in punishing a (presumably) legal majority for that. That said these ARE lives we're talking about...

                    I think having more guidelines on who gets a gun may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sure. Other people in the thread mentioned discouraging gun crimes in the first place, which while a good idea that I agree with, how would that work in practice? A lot of mass shooters end up killing themselves anyway or definitely don't care about getting a death penalty if they were planning to shoot up -insert establishment here- anyway. That sort of thing would really only be effective on an individual level, which is a nice small step, but doesn't really stop bar and school shootings.

                    Of course, I'm speaking hypothetically, so feel free to tell me "You're wrong and you're stupid" at any point.
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                    Old November 10th, 2018 (12:58 PM).
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                      Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.
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                      Old November 10th, 2018 (1:18 PM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by Hakumen.
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                      Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.
                      Problem with America is that you have a lot more places that deal with crippling poverty and more than enough people willing to break in someone's house or something of the sort under the pretense of "Doing what I gotta do". Granted, since I'm from a very volatile environment (Thanks Detroit this is your fault), my outlook on needing guns is different because of the odds that someone will try to mug you, or break into your house, or hold you up, or any number of things that I can think of. You have places where your chances of being a target of a crime is like 1 out of 200 people or maybe less, and considering the population of cities, that's pretty damn high. So you'll have sides of the fence where you got people who get their hands on guns regardless of method to go commit crimes or you have people owning guns because crime rates lean you in the direction of owning one since you could step outside for a store run and be threatened for no reason other than "I was outside at the wrong time" and that's just how it is. Sounds crazy but it's very true.

                      I COULD talk on why guns are a right and why they should/shouldn't be but I'm not really here to talk about that. I think that's another discussion for another time.
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                      Old November 10th, 2018 (3:04 PM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by LDSman.
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Nah View Post
                        "Values dissonance" doesn't offer an explanation on why it's right or wrong though. I'm sure that no one in this thread likes seeing all these innocent people die.
                        I know I don't. I'd rather see armed people fighting back instead of unarmed people trying to be human shields.

                        Quote:
                        And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole if I do get shot.
                        Most of the US gun homicides are confined to large cities that are huge gun control areas. There was something showing the breakdown. It also mentioned that if you aren't involved in or involved with someone who is involved in the drug trade or gang lifestyle, you really have nothing to fear about getting shot. Odds are greater for lightning strikes.

                        Quote:
                        I would rather that we not tell people to stop talking and go away.
                        Be nice if it was an actual debate.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                        Yes, that might be true. But hey, that's why I'm concerned really. No one needs to die needlessly after all. And since nothing lasts forever, the day when people of cities such as Newark can stop living in fear might come after all. All that's needed is patience.
                        People die needlessly of many other things. Plan to ban alcohol, cars, the medical field? And you are right that nothing lasts forever. That includes peaceful times. Can you defend yourself and your family if society is collapsing around you?



                        Quote:
                        Absolutery agree with you. That's how they win everytime really. They ramble on and on in hopes that the ones opposing their ideology gives up and quit. And rest assured, even if I was born and raised in USA, I would never touch a gun regardless. Because that goes against my very nature.
                        But you are rambling? I'm still waiting and hoping you'll defend your comments. You should actually learn more about firearms. And one of the ways you learn is by going to a gun class or gun range and using a gun.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Hakumen View Post
                        Honestly? I still think it's a complicated problem with no immediate answer. I mean sure we could say "haha let's ban guns" but then I'm certain there are more than enough gun owners who aren't thinking about shooting up a Madden tournament that would feel their right to bear arms (as well as right to self-defense) are immediately thrown out the window. And the people who are out here snapping with guns would probably find a way to get their hands on one anyway. Not really interested in punishing a (presumably) legal majority for that. That said these ARE lives we're talking about...
                        Well, Bronze has stated he'd be willing to kill or imprison gun owners in the hope of saving lives.

                        Quote:
                        I think having more guidelines on who gets a gun may be a step in the right direction, but I'm not sure. Other people in the thread mentioned discouraging gun crimes in the first place, which while a good idea that I agree with, how would that work in practice?
                        For the basic gun crimes, IE not mass shootings, extra jail time. Jail time for people that commit straw purchases for the felon friends or family.

                        Quote:
                        A lot of mass shooters end up killing themselves anyway or definitely don't care about getting a death penalty if they were planning to shoot up -insert establishment here- anyway. That sort of thing would really only be effective on an individual level, which is a nice small step, but doesn't really stop bar and school shootings.
                        Short of turning every establishment into a secured building, I'd go for allowing more citizens to carry concealed. There were and have been people who normally carry concealed not carrying because of laws or rules and end up regretting that.

                        Quote:
                        Of course, I'm speaking hypothetically, so feel free to tell me "You're wrong and you're stupid" at any point.
                        You aren't wrong and contributing isn't stupid.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                        Hakumen: Well, the obvious dilemma is that WHY guns are a 'right' over in USA when practically everywhere else it's not. Do we Europeans need guns for example? Well, outside of very specific situations, the answer's obviously no. And i'm sure it would do USA good in the long term to adopt that mindset too.
                        That's not a dilemma. The Founders of the US recognize that governments can become corrupt tyrannies and an armed populace can prevent that from happening.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Hakumen View Post
                        Problem with America is that you have a lot more places that deal with crippling poverty and more than enough people willing to break in someone's house or something of the sort under the pretense of "Doing what I gotta do".
                        There are places in the EU that are just as bad or worse. Multiple break ins per year. Last forum I debated this topic in, I shared links to surveys and whatnot that showed that people were less scared to walk around at night in the US that in the UK.

                        Quote:
                        Granted, since I'm from a very volatile environment (Thanks Detroit this is your fault), my outlook on needing guns is different because of the odds that someone will try to mug you, or break into your house, or hold you up, or any number of things that I can think of. You have places where your chances of being a target of a crime is like 1 out of 200 people or maybe less, and considering the population of cities, that's pretty damn high. So you'll have sides of the fence where you got people who get their hands on guns regardless of method to go commit crimes or you have people owning guns because crime rates lean you in the direction of owning one since you could step outside for a store run and be threatened for no reason other than "I was outside at the wrong time" and that's just how it is. Sounds crazy but it's very true.
                        There are any number of scenarios where guns are necessary for protection. Hurricane Katrina, King Riots, random attacks for no freaking reason.

                        Quote:
                        I COULD talk on why guns are a right and why they should/shouldn't be but I'm not really here to talk about that. I think that's another discussion for another time.
                        Well the thread is US Gun Control and it might help Bronze to understand it.
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                        Old November 10th, 2018 (3:06 PM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Nah View Post
                          you keep saying this, but I don't see what point you're trying to make here
                          I think it's cause he doesn't understand America's history and how it's completely different.. America has guns cause it's America... America is corrupt, more corrupt than people think. America's supposed to be the "land of opportunity" and most "freedom". Tho our country isn't "free" it's more free than the rest of the world. But we're still slaves.. People ignore the history involved in America.. History has proven those that ban guns commit genocide on their own people. Not all countries but lots of leaders did so.
                          America has guns cause it's the "superpower" of of the world.
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                          Old November 10th, 2018 (3:52 PM).
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                          Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
                          -snip-
                          I'm on mobile so I'm not gonna sit and format this like I want, but you raised some valid points that I just wanted to touch on for a second.

                          Quote:
                          For the basic gun crimes, IE not mass shootings, extra jail time. Jail time for people that commit straw purchases for the felon friends or family.
                          This kinda goes into what I mentioned on an individual level. Admittedly, it's a very slippery slope to climb, but it would make sense to try and tackle it, even if the gains are small. I'd much rather some sort of attempt been made to improve the situation as a whole. Some may argue it's unfair, but if you simply don't break the damn law....

                          Quote:
                          Short of turning every establishment into a secured building, I'd go for allowing more citizens to carry concealed.
                          I do agree that giving citizens more power to defend themselves in situations like that would probably give better peace of mind if NOTHING else. More buildings being secure would be a great alternative, but I can't say everyone is willing to have what is basically TSA at a fast food resturant. I wouldn't mind the "inconvenience" for the sake of my safety, but it ain't just about me. But regarding the rules, I find that odd. I know people can get a license to carry concealed (hell in 7 states you don't even need a license to), so is there something I'm missing there?

                          Quote:
                          There are places in the EU that are just as bad or worse. Multiple break ins per year. Last forum I debated this topic in, I shared links to surveys and whatnot that showed that people were less scared to walk around at night in the US that in the UK. There are any number of scenarios where guns are necessary for protection. Hurricane Katrina, King Riots, random attacks for no freaking reason.
                          Yup. Reality is, society is enough of a hotbox where your own home isn't as safe as you might think it is. Times of crisis are even WORSE. So it's like...."Damned if you do, damned if you don't" because we can easily say "Well you know with guns, you enable all sorts of scenarios like this to happen", because you can't really control what someone does with a gun. You just pray that a gun owners has a good conscious. Cause someone could pass a psyche evaluation and then all of a sudden be on the news. At the same time, you don't have guns around an environment, but you still have wild crime rates and victims of incidents. Many of which could have PROBABLY been mitigated or even avoided if a gun was present.
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                          Old November 10th, 2018 (3:57 PM).
                          LDSman LDSman is offline
                             
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                            Originally Posted by Hakumen View Post
                            I'm on mobile so I'm not gonna sit and format this like I want, but you raised some valid points that I just wanted to touch on for a second.



                            This kinda goes into what I mentioned on an individual level. Admittedly, it's a very slippery slope to climb, but it would make sense to try and tackle it, even if the gains are small. I'd much rather some sort of attempt been made to improve the situation as a whole. Some may argue it's unfair, but if you simply don't break the damn law....



                            I do agree that giving citizens more power to defend themselves in situations like that would probably give better peace of mind if NOTHING else. More buildings being secure would be a great alternative, but I can't say everyone is willing to have what is basically TSA at a fast food resturant. I wouldn't mind the "inconvenience" for the sake of my safety, but it ain't just about me. But regarding the rules, I find that odd. I know people can get a license to carry concealed (hell in 7 states you don't even need a license to), so is there something I'm missing there?
                            A lot of places have laws about bringing guns into places where alcohol is served. Or if the place posts specific signs saying guns arent allowed at all regardless of permit.
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                            Old November 10th, 2018 (4:02 PM). Edited November 10th, 2018 by Hakumen.
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by LDSman View Post
                            A lot of places have laws about bringing guns into places where alcohol is served. Or if the place posts specific signs saying guns arent allowed at all regardless of permit.
                            Oh yeah, those. Well anywhere with alcohol as the main thing on the menu make sense. You know, drunk person with a gun and all. I feel like what you said earlier about more secure establishments would go hand in hand VERY well for places that don't allow citizens to carry firearms in them. ESPECIALLY including bars.
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                            Old November 11th, 2018 (1:53 AM). Edited November 11th, 2018 by BronzeHeart92.
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by LDSman View Post

                              People die needlessly of many other things. Plan to ban alcohol, cars, the medical field? And you are right that nothing lasts forever. That includes peaceful times. Can you defend yourself and your family if society is collapsing around you?
                              Well, if a war did break over here, it's all up to the military to fight the enemy no questions asked. And generally speaking, thinks have been real peace and quiet over here though. If a society has collapsed around here, chances are it would have happened already. Being prepared is of course important but I'm at least contend knowing that everyday will be just as peaceful as the last.

                              Quote:
                              But you are rambling? I'm still waiting and hoping you'll defend your comments. You should actually learn more about firearms. And one of the ways you learn is by going to a gun class or gun range and using a gun.
                              Yes, I can ramble sometimes, that I can agree with it. That said, my heart's in the right place. And really, me going to a gun class? Again, gun is a 'privilege' around here. Even if I did know how to get a gun, would there be an actual NEED for me to do so?

                              Quote:
                              That's not a dilemma. The Founders of the US recognize that governments can become corrupt tyrannies and an armed populace can prevent that from happening.
                              Are you suggesting that Finland/EU can in fact become tyrannical one day? Ha, fat chance. Lemme assure you that a dictatorship we are not. And besides, when you look at all of the good things EU has given us, I guess you would like to live here as well? Yes, we do have problems of our too, that's a fact. But really, it's useless trying to bash us like that. As for USA turning rogue, I'm pretty sure they could defeat you pea-shooters easily if they ever wanted to. And really, would they have any INTEREST in actually trying to take over EVERY little aspect of your lives?
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                              Old November 11th, 2018 (2:12 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              At the same time, you don't have guns around an environment, but you still have wild crime rates and victims of incidents. Many of which could have PROBABLY been mitigated or even avoided if a gun was present.
                              As far as I can tell, there are very few examples of mass shootings (in particular) being stopped by a civilian with a gun. Of the few I've found mention of, those civilians tend to be ex-army or have some kind of combat training back story (some examples here).

                              Overall, Western-World countries with less guns have less total murders per million people. According to the information on this website (unfortunately limited to 2011 statistics) you can see that the US's murder rate is 42.01 vs Canada at 16.23, UK at 11.68, France at 10.54, etc. Whilst murders might not be the be-all and end-all of crime, its clearly one of the most important indicators.

                              ---

                              I noticed one or two of the commentators on this thread say they're not scared of the shootings, could I ask why? Is it just that the area you live in feels particularly safe? When most of the big reported shootings are happening at schools/bars/etc. I'm not sure how safe I'd feel as a visitor.
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                              Old November 11th, 2018 (4:29 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Mana View Post
                              I noticed one or two of the commentators on this thread say they're not scared of the shootings, could I ask why? Is it just that the area you live in feels particularly safe? When most of the big reported shootings are happening at schools/bars/etc. I'm not sure how safe I'd feel as a visitor.
                              I mentioned why in one of my posts, but I don't blame anyone for missing it, so I'll copy-paste it here again for people:
                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Nah
                              And personally, as an American, I don't live every day fearing that I'm going to be shot and killed by some gangster or America's Next Top Shooter. Though I suppose part of that has to do with the fact that I live in a little town where nobody does anything instead of say Newark or Detroit or whatever cities are considered dangerous these days, and that I don't care a whole lot if I do get shot.
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                              Old November 11th, 2018 (5:39 AM). Edited November 11th, 2018 by LDSman.
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                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by Hakumen View Post
                                Oh yeah, those. Well anywhere with alcohol as the main thing on the menu make sense. You know, drunk person with a gun and all. I feel like what you said earlier about more secure establishments would go hand in hand VERY well for places that don't allow citizens to carry firearms in them. ESPECIALLY including bars.
                                I get why but don't particularly agree. The vast majority of people that go to bars don't get so wasted as to cause problems.

                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                                Well, if a war did break over here, it's all up to the military to fight the enemy no questions asked. And generally speaking, thinks have been real peace and quiet over here though. If a society has collapsed around here, chances are it would have happened already. Being prepared is of course important but I'm at least contend knowing that everyday will be just as peaceful as the last.
                                Not talking about a war. At least not specifically. Natural disasters, terrorist attacks, wild animals etc. Sure if a war broke out, you hope your military can handle it but if they can't or if they are deployed away from where you are?



                                Quote:
                                Yes, I can ramble sometimes, that I can agree with it. That said, my heart's in the right place.
                                Do you know how many awful things can be justified by "at least my heart was in the right place"? I'd rather have your brain engaged in the debate. Your heart has you killing or imprisoning tens of millions for a few thousand people.

                                Quote:
                                And really, me going to a gun class? Again, gun is a 'privilege' around here. Even if I did know how to get a gun, would there be an actual NEED for me to do so?
                                I bet the rich and the politicians can easily exercise that "privilege". Why is that? Are their lives more important than yours?



                                Quote:
                                Are you suggesting that Finland/EU can in fact become tyrannical one day? Ha, fat chance. Lemme assure you that a dictatorship we are not.
                                All governments can become tyrannical. All it takes is slowly letting them dictate what you as a citizen can or can not do. All for your own good of course.

                                Quote:
                                And besides, when you look at all of the good things EU has given us, I guess you would like to live here as well?
                                :laugh-squinted::laugh-squinted::shaking-head-no: No.
                                Quote:
                                Yes, we do have problems of our too, that's a fact. But really, it's useless trying to bash us like that. As for USA turning rogue, I'm pretty sure they could defeat you pea-shooters easily if they ever wanted to. And really, would they have any INTEREST in actually trying to take over EVERY little aspect of your lives?
                                I'm not "bashing" anything. Easily? Not really. A lot of the gun owners in the US are former military.

                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by Mana View Post
                                As far as I can tell, there are very few examples of mass shootings (in particular) being stopped by a civilian with a gun. Of the few I've found mention of, those civilians tend to be ex-army or have some kind of combat training back story (some examples here).
                                3 out of 10.
                                Great numbers. Link also points out that a lot of these shooting took place in "gun free zones" where law abiding gun owners tend not to have guns.

                                I like this study.
                                http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/


                                Quote:
                                Overall, Western-World countries with less guns have less total murders per million people. According to the information on this website (unfortunately limited to 2011 statistics) you can see that the US's murder rate is 42.01 vs Canada at 16.23, UK at 11.68, France at 10.54, etc. Whilst murders might not be the be-all and end-all of crime, its clearly one of the most important indicators.
                                I dislike limiting information like that. Two easy to distort things by limiting your data set.


                                Quote:
                                ---

                                I noticed one or two of the commentators on this thread say they're not scared of the shootings, could I ask why? Is it just that the area you live in feels particularly safe? When most of the big reported shootings are happening at schools/bars/etc. I'm not sure how safe I'd feel as a visitor.
                                "Reported" is the key word there. The media makes money of off viewers so they tend to exaggerate the dangers and will spend days covering an event and discussing other events. The Columbine School shooting happened almost 20 years ago and the media still brings it up. Being caught in a mass shooting is like being hit by lightning. As far as the rest of gun homicides, staying out of really bad neighborhoods and not buying drugs from strangers and you are perfectly safe.
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                                Old November 11th, 2018 (8:27 AM). Edited November 11th, 2018 by ShinyUmbreon189.
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by BronzeHeart92 View Post
                                  Values dissonance, my friend. You Americans having guns just feels alien and wrong to me. I can't help it. That said, every human life is worth the same no matter where they live. If those massacres keep happening, is there any value in human beings at all? Will it truly be a dog eats dog world where only the fittest deserve to live?
                                  It's already kinda like that.. Not just humans.. It's animal instincts in general.. Just like animals humans have to prove their dominance to be a leader or "alpha male". Animals are violent. Humans are violent.. You're expecting us to live in a utopia which is clearly a fantasy world. Where there's good there's evil and vise versa. It's just the way it is. It's survival tactics. And the more "divided" the people grow, the more violence and heinous acts come into light.



                                  Quote:
                                  True. But that still leaves the issue of guns being a 'right' in first place. If you know how, you can easily get one. There's a reason why that isn't the case over here in EU at all. If some people thing we are less free because of it, I think it's obvious they have never been here in first place.
                                  A gun is not a "right" to a felon or someone who's mentally ill and has a record of it..
                                  A majority of the people who want a gun and don't have a gun don't want to go through the hassle of getting a gun. It's not as easy as you think to get a gun.. Unless you're in Texas or something where everyone has a gun.. Or the ghetto for example but those guns have some serious heat... Getting caught with it will land you in a very worrisome situation...
                                  Besides.. People whom are that mentally ill most likely lack the ability to hold any real position at a job due to their mental issues. These mentally ill people don't have the funds to purchase a cheap pistol.. What makes you think they can afford a rifle? You just get the few that slip through the cracks... These are usually the highly intelligent ones.

                                  And I don't live in EU but I got a friend that lives in UK that I befriened when he lived here in America... 4 years in EU is enough for him as he feels America's the better country to live in.
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                                  Old November 11th, 2018 (8:57 AM). Edited November 11th, 2018 by Mana.
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by LDSman
                                  3 out of 10.
                                  Great numbers. Link also points out that a lot of these shooting took place in "gun free zones" where law abiding gun owners tend not to have guns.

                                  I like this study.
                                  http://dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

                                  I dislike limiting information like that. Two easy to distort things by limiting your data set.
                                  Hmm, I see you saying this a lot about statistics, but then you post to a clearly bias source that has independently googled 10 shootings to make up some numbers for comparison. Meanwhile, the website for statistics I have linked is one giant global meta study. It seems to me you only like statistics that fit your point of view.

                                  I'm happy to concede if you can present a reliable source - but that seems unlikely. The number of documented civiliian-saviour shootings seems very small when you consider there have been 300+ mass shootings this year in the US, many with multiple casualties.

                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by LDSman
                                  "Reported" is the key word there. The media makes money of off viewers so they tend to exaggerate the dangers and will spend days covering an event and discussing other events. The Columbine School shooting happened almost 20 years ago and the media still brings it up. Being caught in a mass shooting is like being hit by lightning. As far as the rest of gun homicides, staying out of really bad neighborhoods and not buying drugs from strangers and you are perfectly safe.
                                  Ah, I see your POV now. Media elite are covering it up and brainwashing us, basically?

                                  If I take the cases in the last month with the most injured/dead (including some of the most high profile cases):
                                  https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/1249561
                                  https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/1241819
                                  https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/1246489
                                  https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/sites/default/files/source-screenshots/1237930-weartv.com-1540168257.png

                                  Only one is thought to be gang related, the others are innocents in 'safe' places (whether that means gun-free, I can't confirm, although pretty sure the Synagogue shooting was gun-free?).

                                  This isn't the media exaggerating these cases - they happened, they resulted in more deaths than the usual shooting. Your comment about Columbine School is interesting, do you know how many school shootings have happened since then? You think that past shootings are brought up to manipulate the public rather than serve as a tragic reminder?

                                  Antimedia retort excuses the perpetrators and blames the people informing the public.
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