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  #1    
Old September 12th, 2017 (3:58 PM).
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    Just now, a Poketuber who goes by the username False Swipe Gaming has made a video about the competitive history of Ice types and how terrible they've become over the past generations in OU.



    I tend to wonder if the series is better off without Ice types as they have proven themselves to be terrible Pokémon in battle, even after the introduction to Fairy type. Buffing Ice types would go against the main theme (powerful but fragile at the same time), but we all know how much Game Freak loves to keep giving us defensive Ice types even though it never worked. That would mean removing the type altogether and retcon mono-Ice types into a different mono-type and Pokémon with Ice as a secondary type into either mono-types or replaced by a new type that thematically makes sense. And all Ice moves would be retconned to Water moves with freezing effects. The Dragon type advantage Ice has would also have to be replaced by another type to keep that type from being OP again (I would suggest Steel). I doubt Ice's absence would change the whole type balance outside of that problem because Ground types are still usually slow and have problems against Water and Grass types, Flying types have both Stealth Rock problems and Electric types to worry about, and Grass still has common weaknesses to keep most of its members from moving into OU.

    So, would the competitive metagame be better off without Ice types, or do you still believe the type can be salvaged into OU?
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    Old September 12th, 2017 (5:19 PM). Edited September 12th, 2017 by Choice Specs.
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    Ice is a great offensive type that helps balance the type chart. Sure, Ice typed Pokemon are generally bad in OU sans a few such as Kyurem-B, Weavile, Ninetales etc., but Ice Beam coverage is a must have on every team due to the sheer amount of mons it can hit for super effective damage. Removing the type completely would change the landscape for worse, IMO.

    Idk if anything can be done to salvage Ice typed Pokemon themselves though. An Ice typed Pokemon with Magic Guard could be cool to eliminate the severe hazard weakness, but even then unless it had a good movepool and stats to back it up, you'd be better off just slapping Ice Beam on a bulky Water.
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    Old September 12th, 2017 (5:42 PM). Edited September 12th, 2017 by Pinkie-Dawn.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by lopunny View Post
      Ice is a great offensive type that helps balance the type chart. Sure, Ice typed Pokemon are generally bad in OU sans a few such as Kyurem-B, Weavile, Ninetales etc., but Ice Beam coverage is a must have on every team due to the sheer amount of mons it can hit for super effective damage. Removing the type completely would change the landscape for worse, IMO.
      That is the exact problem. What's the point of Ice types when only the moves are used and not the actual Pokemon associated with the type for STAB purposes? I remember there was a post made here mentioning how STAB is as important as type coverage. Besides, it's mostly Water types that use Ice moves in OU. I don't see how it would change the landscape for the worse when I mentioned Ground, Flying, Dragon, and Grass have their own share of problems in the metagame when Ice isn't one of them.
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      Old September 12th, 2017 (5:59 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
      That is the exact problem. What's the point of Ice types when only the moves are used and not the actual Pokemon associated with the type for STAB purposes? I remember there was a post made here mentioning how STAB is as important as type coverage. Besides, it's mostly Water types that use Ice moves in OU. I don't see how it would change the landscape for the worse when I mentioned Ground, Flying, Dragon, and Grass have their own share of problems in the metagame when Ice isn't one of them.
      I don't see your argument here. STAB is important, yes, but that doesn't mean that Ice typed moves aren't important even if not used by an Ice typed mon. Boltbeam coverage is one of the most essential things when building a competitive team. Just because those types you mentioned have other weaknesses besides Ice does not mean Ice is not a threat for them. It just highlights how important Ice is because IT IS a threat for them. If you take away the Ice type completely, you are needlessly buffing numerous types and taking away the viability of mons that could otherwise just carry moves such as Ice Beam for coverage.
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      Old September 12th, 2017 (6:19 PM). Edited September 12th, 2017 by 5qwerty.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
      That is the exact problem. What's the point of Ice types when only the moves are used and not the actual Pokemon associated with the type for STAB purposes? I remember there was a post made here mentioning how STAB is as important as type coverage. Besides, it's mostly Water types that use Ice moves in OU. I don't see how it would change the landscape for the worse when I mentioned Ground, Flying, Dragon, and Grass have their own share of problems in the metagame when Ice isn't one of them.
      Yes, Ice is a terrible defensive typing, but I don't think you can just remove Ice-type Pokémon. Maybe it's because of the few specific strong Ice-type Pokémon that already exist to fill some niches. Mamoswine, Weavile, and Alolan-Ninetales, while not in OU, are still very strong if put on the right team. Removing Alolan-Ninetales would change the meta completely, as Aurora Veil teams would be almost impossible to pull off. Mamoswine basically has no switch-ins other than Rotom-Wash, and defensive Celesteela and Skarmory (also Rotom-Heat, Rotom-Freeze, but they are rarely used in the tier), and removing it from the game, while not entirely meta-defining, will limit some teambuilding options. Weavile, while not as strong as Mamoswine, is very fast and can pull off some feats of its own as well (trapping Latis, Low Kick), though Magearna basically shuts it down.

      Aside, I think you're mistaking the meaning of that post. Most likely what Zeffy meant was that super-effective moves don't always have more power than STAB moves. For example, if you have a Zapdos vs. Zapdos matchup, you would go for Thunderbolt over HP Ice since 90*1.5 = 135 > 60*2 = 120.

      edit: got ninja'd

      edit2: are we talking about ice pokes or the actual type
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      Old September 12th, 2017 (7:22 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by 5qwerty View Post
        edit2: are we talking about ice pokes or the actual type
        Both to be exact because if you remove the actual type because of how bad the Ice Pokémon are competitively, then it would benefit former Ice Pokémon who will be retconned to a different type that's more competitively reliable. And correction, Alolan Ninetales is currently in OU.
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        Old September 12th, 2017 (8:16 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
        Both to be exact because if you remove the actual type because of how bad the Ice Pokémon are competitively, then it would benefit former Ice Pokémon who will be retconned to a different type that's more competitively reliable. And correction, Alolan Ninetales is currently in OU.
        Oh whoops, dexsearching on our server must have used the old tier list.

        Ok, I'd still be for keeping the type. Very unpredictable things would occur if the type were to be removed.
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        Old September 13th, 2017 (1:58 AM).
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        You know what's really cool about Ice types? They get STAB on Ice moves. STAB on one of the most dangerous offesnive types. There's a lot of mon that can't switch into that.
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        Old September 13th, 2017 (5:03 AM).
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        This is the key bit here:
        Quote:
        but we all know how much Game Freak loves to keep giving us defensive Ice types even though it never worked.
        I think I've said this before, but you'll notice that the OU-worthy Ice types have generally been the ones that are more offensively inclined--the ones that make use of the type's strengths. It's like the Fire type, when was the last time you heard of a successful defensive fire type that wasn't named Heatran?

        The solution is not to eliminate the type really, just for Game Freak to stop trying to make defensive Pokemon out of what is likely the worst defensive typing in the entire game.
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        Old September 13th, 2017 (8:18 AM). Edited September 13th, 2017 by Pinkie-Dawn.
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Nah View Post
          I think I've said this before, but you'll notice that the OU-worthy Ice types have generally been the ones that are more offensively inclined--the ones that make use of the type's strengths. It's like the Fire type, when was the last time you heard of a successful defensive fire type that wasn't named Heatran?
          I've been hearing from one Poketuber that we need more defensive Fire types like Arcanine if they want to survive a hit or two after Stealth Rocks.

          Quote:
          The solution is not to eliminate the type really, just for Game Freak to stop trying to make defensive Pokemon out of what is likely the worst defensive typing in the entire game.
          But we also want to buffed those older Ice Pokémon too in order to have less power creep from newer gen Pokémon.
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          Old September 13th, 2017 (8:21 AM). Edited September 13th, 2017 by Kevin Garrett.
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            The video is only a glimpse at Ice-types throughout the generations. It starts leaving out good Ice-types after the first generation. There is also no mention of the major roles Ice-types have played through various tier shifts in more modern generations (4+). One of Ice-types biggest threats is the direction of tiering decisions and not necessarily wrongly so.
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            Old September 13th, 2017 (12:33 PM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Pinkie-Dawn View Post
            I've been hearing from one Poketuber that we need more defensive Fire types like Arcanine if they want to survive a hit or two after Stealth Rocks.
            It's not exactly necessary for the type to be able to take hits, regardless of SRs or no SRs, and this extends to many Pokemon really, not just any particular type.

            Quote:
            But we also want to buffed those older Ice Pokémon too in order to have less power creep from newer gen Pokémon.
            I mean, yeah, that's something could be done too

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Kevin Garrett View Post
            There is also no mention of the major roles Ice-types have played through various tier shifts in more modern generations (4+). One of Ice-types biggest threats is the direction of tiering decisions and not necessarily wrongly so.
            Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Just curious to hear more.
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            Old September 13th, 2017 (4:36 PM). Edited September 13th, 2017 by Kevin Garrett.
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Nah View Post
              Would you mind elaborating on this a bit? Just curious to hear more.
              Yeah, sure. It's very likely that the content was condensed for the general viewing audience (seeing as though they included VGC strategy for each applicable generation).

              Starting with Gen 2, there isn't any mention of Jynx. It's not an A-list threat, but it's extremely potent in the right hands. This is the bulkiest generation, so even things like Gengar and Jynx can sustain repeated hits with thoughtful play and many of the standard builds have very little answer for this if any kind of breakdown occurs. I think you would be surprised to see just what Jynx can get through in Gen 2.

              For Gen 3, I think it's generally mischaracterized in the video. Regice is a really unique cover for certain squads, particularly offensive squads. It can tank damage from a wide variety of things. To frame it, since Dugtrio is a popular concept in the modern game, in ADV with Adamant CB it's barely getting a 2HKO on Regice (and reference that Jolly is the most common nature). It can cut off the bleeding of CM teams with Psych Up, or even be a pivot with a powerful Explosion. Cloyster isn't mentioned, which is unique for being the best Spikes user not trapped by Magneton. Selling it off as only being good because of it's access to Spikes and defense is selling it short since Gengar can't switch in more than once to block Rapid Spin and it also has a powerful Explosion. And then you have the forgotten Articuno, which admittedly lost some luster with CM spam teams and probably more importantly, the Sleep Talk mechanic fix, but it has some capacity beyond Zapdos for fitting niche roles in certain teams.

              For Gen 4, Ice gained so many tools. Yes, Stealth Rock did away with the pre-existing Ice-types, but Abomasnow's impact is largely understated (especially in a historical context). Quite a few eras of DPP were dominated by Hail teams (to an overwhelming extent in UU, but also in OU at different points). Abomasnow's value isn't purely as a one-on-one staller with Leech Seed and attacks. As is the nature with DPP, it's quickly met with resistance. Abomasnow is one of the best 'chippers' in the game. Hail is the greatest asset of them all because it will inflict residual on essentially everything and extend its life with Seed. These teams lean on strong spinning and prediction. I would say it works well for both offense and defense, and this was really apparent in some of the suspect test eras (Abomasnow and Hail teams in general were one of the major centralizing forces in Garchomp era DP, Latios and Manaphy tests in DPP).

              In Gen 5, Hail had dominance at different points because of how centralizing Rain was on the metagame. Perhaps the most surefire way to defeat Rain in BW was Hail. Even looking outside of Abomasnow and Hail, Weavile is represented in the video as if it was taking a nap this generation. Weavile was a key piece in two of my prolific Sun squads. It was punishing to the popular Gliscor-Ferrothorn-Jellicent cores that Spikes-stacked and played the Magic Guard game with Alakazam or Reuniclus. With the post-generational tiering change that brought Excadrill back, it greatly affected the viability of every Ice-type, maybe with the exception of Mamoswine since that was relegated to a particular style of team.

              This is why I said Ice-types have been greatly impacted by tiering decisions. Minus the Snow Cloak / Froslass ban in DPP, none of the decisions directly implicated Ice mons in anything. However, at almost every stop, they were major players in the balance and health of those metagames prior to the format adjustments. So no, I don't think Ice-types are garbage or useless. As with more than half of the types in the game, they are only going to see moderate usage because the majority of them aren't going to be dominating standard OU. And that's perfectly fine.
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              Old September 17th, 2017 (8:07 PM).
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              Totally wrong to say Ice types are terrible given the massive impact they've had on virtually every metagame this generation (and every generation). Yes it's a truly atrocious defensive typing, but Ice types have many tools that make them viable. Weavile, Kyurem-B and Mamoswine, while not fantastic in OU, are viable there. Ninetales-A is a fantastic threat that is both metagame defining in its niche of Snow Warning + Aurora Veil and also a huge anti-metagame threat in its ability to maul Pelipper and all of its friends. It can set up a truly devastating sweep for even the most frail teammates.

              Further down in the lower tiers, we have seen the havoc Aurora Veil has unleashed. With 3 viable hail setters in NU, Cryogonal and Sandslash-A were becoming truly broken in their ability to set up teammates like Vivillon and Virizion for easy sweeps. RU has caught onto this strategy and it won't be long before it's deemed uncompetitive there too.

              If this has anything to do with the fact that the powerful Ice types of RBY OU are all bad (with the exception of Cloyster) then that's quite silly. There are viable Ice types in every tier.
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              Old September 23rd, 2017 (3:02 AM).
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                Well you can use quite a few Pokemon in OU for example Weavile, Mamo, Alolan Ninetales and Kyurem-B, or if you want you can even go with Abomasnow, Shell Smash Cloyster and Kyurem-C because they feel very much usable.
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                Old September 26th, 2017 (8:38 AM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Kevin Garrett View Post
                  This is why I said Ice-types have been greatly impacted by tiering decisions. Minus the Snow Cloak / Froslass ban in DPP, none of the decisions directly implicated Ice mons in anything. However, at almost every stop, they were major players in the balance and health of those metagames prior to the format adjustments. So no, I don't think Ice-types are garbage or useless. As with more than half of the types in the game, they are only going to see moderate usage because the majority of them aren't going to be dominating standard OU. And that's perfectly fine.
                  Quote:
                  If this has anything to do with the fact that the powerful Ice types of RBY OU are all bad (with the exception of Cloyster) then that's quite silly. There are viable Ice types in every tier.
                  It is not perfectly fine though because OU has been seen by newcomers, who we should all be more concerned about, as the "best of the best" and anything lower than OU and BL as garbage or useless, even if OU-viable Pokemon are trapped in the lower tiers because of the limited number of Pokemon OU could only allow. It's even worse for them when Fairy types took their jobs as the better Dragon slayers since other types do a better job at countering types Ice is also super effective against (most common being no Stealth Rock weakness). This is why Game Freak needs to somehow buff older gen Ice types, including the ones who were once OU in RBY, so they can be more viable in OU instead of UU, RU, NU, and PU or else being ridiculed by newcomers to the competitive metagame.
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                  Old September 27th, 2017 (5:27 PM).
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                  I still think your argument is quite poor. Why not make the same one about Normal types? There is 1 viable Normal typed Pokemon in OU(Lopunny) and that is because Scrappy allows it to make use of it's strong Normal typed STAB.

                  I'm not trying to say that is even a good argument either, just pointing out that Ice isn't the worst type out there.
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                  Old September 28th, 2017 (3:54 AM).
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                  As a TYPE, Ice is fantastic and probably one of the strongest out there. Ice Beam is a fantastic coverage move that makes its way onto nearly every special set and I mean, BoltBeam has been a thing since forever. Even its lesser counterpart HP Ice finds its way onto most sets, due to how hard it stomps on some of the tier's threats. Ice Shard is an amazingly useful priority move and Ice Punch is also a good option RE coverage that makes its way onto a few sets.

                  In terms of Ice-type Pokémon, they have been quite prominent since.....R/B/Y. They've kept that all the way through the series, mostly due to their amazing offensive potential. So they aren't a great defensive typing due to hazards, but I mean has that really hampered them? No. Look at Mamoswine and Weavile, they are very good offensive Pokémon which actually cause troubles for switch-ins. Then we move onto the inclusion of Alolan-Ninetales and Aurora Veil, a great defensive option as well as great setup potential and actually a pretty damn good offensive option too thanks to lolBlizzard.

                  Mayhap not worth basing everything on that one video :P
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