Arceus is not omnipotent/powerful

Pokedigifan1178 · May 14, 2019

Vragon2.0 said:
But that's not the issue I had. The issue I had wasn't that he could be reasonably beaten by other beings in fiction, but that you use that to then discredit the being he is in that world. You say what kind of "God" would get owned by [insert situation you put here] and while some of the information I was trying to correct others I was challenging your reasoning.

I don't disagree there are other more powerful beings out there but I don't think you can then just thread titled "Arceus is not omnipotent/powerful" without addressing the different degrees that Gods have existed (which takes out your powerful statement up there) nor is Arceus supposed to be omnipotent. It comes off as not being fair in the analysis of Arceus.

If you don't like him, fine I don't challenge that, but I just think your points here are rather weak with the claim you were making in the initial post.

well for one thing only really like 2 or 3 peeps have participated so I was throwing my hat in the thread and what would be the problem with that. Most of what I noticed in the thread seemed to be talking about his limits which is fine though I think that's forgetting it was his birth that brought about things to happen even if he didn't cause them specifically.

I just was addressing the points you made initially and coming with my own thoughts on the matter.

okay then. i have no issue with that

Fairy · May 14, 2019

The lady doth protest too much, methinks..

Vragon2.0 · May 14, 2019

Fairy said:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks..

Yah have somethin' to add?

Fairy · May 14, 2019

Sorry, I thought that sorta said it all, lol.

What I mean by that is, I think Pokedigifan is so adamant about Arceus being weaker than [insert thing] because he knows Arceus would actually beat them easily. ;)

Pokedigifan1178 · May 15, 2019

Fairy said:
Sorry, I thought that sorta said it all, lol.

What I mean by that is, I think Pokedigifan is so adamant about Arceus being weaker than [insert thing] because he knows Arceus would actually beat them easily. ;)

no because i know for a fact zeedmillenniumon and lucemon or any other high mega level digimon could easily crush arceus.

arceus doesn't even stand a chance against the royal knights or neo or the eaters from cyber sleuth.

also galactus from marvel would destroy arceus. the ultimate nullifier would destroy him

Vragon2.0 · May 15, 2019

Pokedigifan1178 said:
no because i know for a fact zeedmillenniumon and lucemon or any other high mega level digimon could easily crush arceus.

arceus doesn't even stand a chance against the royal knights or neo or the eaters from cyber sleuth.

also galactus from marvel would destroy arceus. the ultimate nullifier would destroy him

Whether or not he can handle these beings I wouldn't know, but if you're using something akin to Galactus's level to discredit what Arceus can do or is as a being then that'd be a bit ... much.

I do agree other beings are stronger, though I will say you shouldn't ignore his plate systems that can make many elemental uses against him nullified. If he can beat these things or not I wouldn't know but considering how some of your statements on arceus have been inaccurate or lessening the effect I'm not entirely sure the approach you're taking is one of a fair analysis.

I mean, Galactus is a devourer of worlds, yet is useless if you freeze time around him. Arceus can create a being of time that would imply he has some semblance of power. Not to mention being able to defy time for his own means also exists (see a certain thing in Explorers of Sky)

My point isn't that he is more powerful or able to win, but that you need to be fair in looking into this instead since from what I've seen so far I think a bit too much of the digifan is in the ring.

Pokedigifan1178 · May 16, 2019

Vragon2.0 said:
Whether or not he can handle these beings I wouldn't know, but if you're using something akin to Galactus's level to discredit what Arceus can do or is as a being then that'd be a bit ... much.

I do agree other beings are stronger, though I will say you shouldn't ignore his plate systems that can make many elemental uses against him nullified. If he can beat these things or not I wouldn't know but considering how some of your statements on arceus have been inaccurate or lessening the effect I'm not entirely sure the approach you're taking is one of a fair analysis.

I mean, Galactus is a devourer of worlds, yet is useless if you freeze time around him. Arceus can create a being of time that would imply he has some semblance of power. Not to mention being able to defy time for his own means also exists (see a certain thing in Explorers of Sky)

My point isn't that he is more powerful or able to win, but that you need to be fair in looking into this instead since from what I've seen so far I think a bit too much of the digifan is in the ring.

galactus can manipulate time as well

Vragon2.0 · May 16, 2019

Pokedigifan1178 said:
galactus can manipulate time as well

and that negates or lessens the point of my comment how?

Pokedigifan1178 · May 16, 2019

Vragon2.0 said:
and that negates or lessens the point of my comment how?

that his time manipulation and arceus's time manipulation cancel out

Vragon2.0 · May 16, 2019

Pokedigifan1178 said:
that his time manipulation and arceus's time manipulation cancel out

referring to this part of my comment which was the main point.

Whether or not he can handle these beings I wouldn't know, but if you're using something akin to Galactus's level to discredit what Arceus can do or is as a being then that'd be a bit ... much.

That was what I was talking about.
However, I can counter your time point by simply referring back to that he did two things that shows he superior to time.
He can create a time deity "Dialga" in the ruins there, so that alone implies something about time.
Confirmation would be that Sky thing I referenced earlier where he did a big fu** you to the results and had things that shouldn't exist....exist.
So he isn't simply a timelord or the like he is a reality distorter on all levels of the 4 dimensional plain while also having his own dimension accessible only by him. Again, I say you aren't taking his power level fully into account if you don't really know his ability to not just be time but above time.

I'm not saying he would defeat Galactus that's up for debate ~~Though Galactus has vulnerabilities and stuff that can weaken him as well as mannerisms that are rather bad for him to do~~, what I am saying is that he's stronger than you're giving him credit for, for one and for two saying he would lose to other more powerful beings doesn't take away from the fact he is the most powerful thing in the pokemon universe.

Pokedigifan1178 · May 17, 2019

Vragon2.0 said:
referring to this part of my comment which was the main point.

That was what I was talking about.
However, I can counter your time point by simply referring back to that he did two things that shows he superior to time.
He can create a time deity "Dialga" in the ruins there, so that alone implies something about time.
Confirmation would be that Sky thing I referenced earlier where he did a big fu** you to the results and had things that shouldn't exist....exist.
So he isn't simply a timelord or the like he is a reality distorter on all levels of the 4 dimensional plain while also having his own dimension accessible only by him. Again, I say you aren't taking his power level fully into account if you don't really know his ability to not just be time but above time.

I'm not saying he would defeat Galactus that's up for debate ~~Though Galactus has vulnerabilities and stuff that can weaken him as well as mannerisms that are rather bad for him to do~~, what I am saying is that he's stronger than you're giving him credit for, for one and for two saying he would lose to other more powerful beings doesn't take away from the fact he is the most powerful thing in the pokemon universe.

okay

i do agree he might be the most powerful pokemon in the pokemon universe.

although is he stronger than the ultra beasts?

Vragon2.0 · May 17, 2019

Pokedigifan1178 said:
okay

i do agree he might be the most powerful pokemon in the pokemon universe.

although is he stronger than the ultra beasts?

I'd gather yes. Even if they are the ultra beasts that get usages of buffs, Arceus would still have his plate system to nullify any damage from moves as well as make his judgement whatever he wanted. Type Null was considered a "Ultra Beast Hunter" and in it's evolution form has abilities akin to arceus. So if Silvally is a creature that can do sort of what Arceus can and from that premise was to hunt down ultra beasts I'd daresay the original being that's more powerful the Sylvally and technically the creator of things in that world would be more than capbale of handling any Ultra Beast, even Necrozma.

Jeppp · Jan 1, 2021

Pokedigifan1178 said:
AYou know, they say Arceus is the most powerful Pokémon. Yes that may be true but he is not as powerful as you think he is.

Here are some reasons why.

1. If he was god then why are you able to capture him. This the problem with all legendary Pokémon as well. If the creation trio and Arceus are gods then why can they be captured into little balls by ten year olds to engage in cockfights.

2. The best feat of Arceus was he created the Pokémon universe. However that was only one universe, and he drained pretty much most of his power in doing it. Lots of people in fiction can create universes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're powerful, especially if they waste almost all their energy in creating just one.

(Also the idea of every Pokémon game, being it's own universe is a fan theory. It does not mean Arceus is multiversal, because since when was Arceus a multiversal being.)

3. If he was god, then why did Arceus almost die from a meteor hitting him. I know a lot people say this is PIS, (plot induced stupidity), but still why did he almost die from a meteor. It's so stupid to see a so called god nearly die from a fucking meteor.

4. Arceus in order to be powerful, needs these so called plates. Since when does a god need something in order to be powerful.

5. He had to struggle to fight the creation trio. He created the creation trio which means he is more powerful than them, yet he had to put up a struggle with them. If he was god he would have just instantly defeated them.

Those are just some of the reasons why I believe Arceus is powerful alright but he is a weakling compared to other gods in fiction. He's just not the powerful god many Pokémon fans believe he is.

One other thing that I say about Arceus was the fact that He was subdued by regular Pokémon and molten Lead or some other metal. I find that both stupid and funny.

Like another person has said here we have to (at least imo) take seriously into account the contexts, 1st it's utterly contradictory to combine anime and games since they have great differences and also the anime sometimes makes even less sense (for instance, teenager characters lifting or carrying on their backs pokemon that exceed 200LBS weight) also in games Arceus can only use 1 plate at once and it just turns him into it's respective type, while in anime he can use all at once and it makes him invulnerable to type attacks, also in games by stats Mega-Rayquaza is supposed to be more powerful, but in Hoopa's movie it pretty much showed how Arceus is massively superior, and other things like in the dex Gardevoir can create a BLACK HOLE, and if Arceus is stronger than Regigigas, why is Regigigas according to the dex a continental mover while Arceus is a mere city level? that's why it's not useful to take these aspects as like one of a same kind, and now the context, it's a GAME, mostly FOR KIDS, obviously for entertainment it has to be able to be used (captured), and anime it would've been weird that we went from destroying cars or trees to literally having characters over Goku and Superman's level, besides how would've they made to create a plot with universal godlike beings when the most shown before it's environmental control, time travel and sea and continent control? It's convenience and context, that's why I'd rather take this by lore and what they're supposed to mean on surface than what the anime/games needs it to be, Arceus has the plates to organize his power and so be the forger of creation, which places him as an Universal/dimensional being since it lives outside other dimensions and can access them, Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are primordial forces created by him which can affect dimensions and the natural order's balance, so they're also universal/dimensional beings but lower grade than Arceus that exceeds their power by a lot, that's why I like to point out it's that this is lore and it seems more fitting since what's REALLY PIS is that a creature than can give form to the universe can get to be killed by a city level attack, that's why in vs battles wiki (it might have a lotta controversies but at least it's based on lore about this) Arceus is on the same tier as Alien X (2-B, Universal+) and for me as concept it's better, cause anime and games seem that can't give a really reasonable and well-grounded power to a supposed godlike being (also the creation trio) and makes sense, since would be to out of the sudden those levels for what pokemon is directed, this is not Dragon ball, Marvel or DC, nigh-omnipotent beings in Pokemon sounds odd and irrelevant for its plot, but for the concept and what technically represent, the lore makes justice putting him as a nigh-omnipotent being with universal/dimensional power.

Pokedigifan1178 said:
Still the creation trio hasn't shown much feats.

In the anime, they barely destroyed a city.

Probably PIS but still they only destroyed like a single city.

That's why I said it's the companies convenience, does pokemon need Dragon ball level fights? There you have it, and in Lore it's taken the part where directing his power through the plates (at least in there the plates are catalyzers, not extra power) can create universes and dimensions, so that's an impressive feat slightly related to the "canon" and also with the creation trio, they are forces of nature, their only existence being attached to the natural order of the universe it's a massive feat itself, and obviously this is taken as what it's "supposed" to be, not as how's shown (since lacks real senseful meaning) and it's lore.

Squirtlenator · Jan 10, 2021

Bishop's Ring said:
I agree that as a monotheistic omnipotent god, Arceus isn't something that makes a lot of sense - but then again, I don't think it's meant to be a monotheistic omnipotent god, especially since even if we're just going on Sinnohan mythology, there are three other "deities" closely linked to Arceus - those being Dialga, Palkia and Giratina - and then the lake guardians, which also seem to have some relation to the creation mythos of Sinnoh. Rather than seeing Arceus as a sort of replica for, say, an Abrahamic deity, it makes more sense to see it as one of the many deities that exist naturally within the Pokemon world. Just like Alola has the tapus, which are worshipped, and Kanto has the mew species (I say species because it's implied that there are multiple mew), Sinnoh has Arceus and the other deities.

Looking at the dex entries for Arceus, it's interesting to note that nothing really paints it as being omnipotent - all it implies is that Arceus is at least as old as, if not older than, the "universe" - but that it created the world, not the universe. In fact, funnily enough, while none of Arceus' dex entries refer to it as a deity, both Palkia and Dialga's do. In that case, it's easier to see Arceus as a world-shaper rather than anything else - and to do that, it uses its plates, which allow it to harness the elements. In Arceus and the Jewel of Life, it's shown that the aforementioned Jewel was formed of the core elemental plates (and a few extras for good measure), so it's clear that Arceus uses these as a method of taking on power it otherwise couldn't have due to being a normal type, which further hammers home the fact that it isn't omnipotent, because it isn't a monotheistic god.

Though people in Sinnoh do build temples to Arceus in a way that resembles churches, that can be played off simply as them showing thanks for the creature that they believe gave them life. Arceus, however, isn't solely responsible for everything - it might have made the world, but if Dialga is the representative of time and Palkia is the representative of space, then Arceus clearly needed these to create the realm within with the world was formed. I also believe the idea that Giratina represents gravity, and that's a fundamental universal force too - but I won't go into that since I don't think that's canon. On top of that, mew is the possessor of all DNA, meaning mew must have been needed to properly form pokemon - and if we believe the Sinnohan idea that humans and pokemon are closely linked in terms of evolution, then mew is also responsible for human life, not Arceus.

These factors all point to one conclusion - Arceus can't be seen as a monotheistic god, and I don't think it should ever be viewed as such. Given that Pokemon is a Japanese franchise and the most popular religions in Japan are apparently Shinto and Buddhism, both of which are technically polytheistic, it makes no sense to apply Western monotheism to the culture of the Sinnoh region, especially since it's a Japanese-inspired region. To Unova, sure, monotheism makes more sense, but this isn't Unova. As such, seeing Arceus as part of a sort of "clan" of deities that also contains Palkia, Dialga, Giratina and, yes, several other legendaries, both from the Sinnoh mythos and from other regions, makes a lot more sense. Just think of Arceus as... the Zeus of them. Probably the most singularly powerful, but by no means invincible - and, like many polytheistic gods, not at all immune to death.

And at the end of the day, more than being a "deity," which is technically a human-created category in the Pokemon world, Arceus is a pokemon. "So-called god" is correct - Arceus didn't label itself that, humanity did. Just because we say something, doesn't mean it's true - but what is true is that Arceus is as much a pokemon as any other. Much like a poke ball works on a wooper, it will also work on Arceus - it's just a little harder to catch it due to its increased power level.

Very well articulated 👍

Arceus is not omnipotent/powerful

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Pokedigifan1178

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[color=#cecfc4]Hasta La Vista, Baby[/color]