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  #26    
Old May 22nd, 2011 (1:35 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digimon Kaiser View Post
Personally, I think Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, etc., were real people, but were just normal men with nothing beyond the ordinary about them.
Anybody disagree here?
I agree.

After the story being told for so man years, they all have seemed to be exaggerated.


@Nurse: Yes they are. :/
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  #27    
Old May 24th, 2011 (10:15 AM).
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    Well, hello people!

    I'm christian. I admit it openly. I am actually here for a good debate, since all the idiots i try.... dont exist. Meh. no one for me to debate seemed to be there.

    I was raised christian. My family is christian. etc.

    I'm not sure im here to join, but I would like to point out a few things in you guys' talk.


    Spoiler:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NurseBarbra View Post
    I'm guessing they're christian so..Have you ever argued that MOST of the bible contridicts itself? Like, seriousally, There are parts which PROMOTE SLAVERY AND SEXISM. Not very christian is it?
    Could you list a few passages?
    I know of one passage about slavery, and that is philemon. But, I am quite sure the slavery refered to is the type of prisoner-of-war. They had a lot of war etc at the time. The Bible does not support racism. I am not aware where it promotes sexism tho....




    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Landorus View Post
    The bible itself was written by man, not God. And man at that time did promote slavery and sexism, if God existed, and God really did have man write that, 99% of it would be things they added into it, and not what God wanted.

    This is why Christianity (and all other religions) have been poisoned by man.
    According to the Bible, God actually wrote the Bible himself. Only, he did it through prophets who wrote it down for him. Kinda like scribes.




    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Digimon Kaiser View Post
    Personally, I think Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, etc., were real people, but were just normal men with nothing beyond the ordinary about them.
    Anybody disagree here?
    They were normal men alright. But men guided by God. At least, IMO. Except Jesus, we beleive he was the son of God.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Landorus View Post
    o: People!

    So, everyone, what did you do during the rapture?
    I hate the man who said the rapture shall happen on May 21, 2011. Or October 21, 2011 as he now says. He just made my life harder...


    OK to just talk here as a christian, right? You can have both sides of the topic! lol.
      #28    
    Old May 25th, 2011 (12:26 AM).
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      To be honest, I think a lot of atheists started out Christian. I, myself, started out very heavily Christian - in fact, I hated everybody who wasn't Christian, almost. I was an ignorant little twit when I was about 13. Just an angry little tyke, I suppose. In my experience, I've found that religion, especially holy books, are usually the best tools to use to turn people into atheists...you know, because that's the goal, conversion.
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        #29    
      Old May 25th, 2011 (3:27 PM).
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      If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?

      I'm guessing it would be more of a 'spirit' force kind of thing. I'm not to sure how to explain it, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't really be in a human shape. Possibly more like an ancient spirit that can control the world at whim. But, that's just my opinion.
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        #30    
      Old May 25th, 2011 (4:26 PM).
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      Shining Raichu Shining Raichu is offline
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Merzbau View Post
      To be honest, I think a lot of atheists started out Christian. I, myself, started out very heavily Christian - in fact, I hated everybody who wasn't Christian, almost. I was an ignorant little twit when I was about 13. Just an angry little tyke, I suppose. In my experience, I've found that religion, especially holy books, are usually the best tools to use to turn people into atheists...you know, because that's the goal, conversion.
      I wouldn't necessarily say that conversion is the goal, but living a life in fear of something that was never there is no way to live a life, and if I can help even one person to be see that, and be happier because of it, then my life has had some purpose.

      I agree that the books, the core of the religion, if people read them with open eyes rather than blind faith, are the best ways to make an atheist out of a religious person. It's funny in a way, you exit a religion in the same way you enter it - through the books lol
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        #31    
      Old May 26th, 2011 (5:13 AM).
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      What are your family's general religious beliefs?

      Well, my whole blood related family is Hindu. They strongly believe everything or most of what the gita (Hindu bible) says and they tried to raise me to do the same. But sadly, (according to them) I'm just a kid who is under knowledged and I'll grow up to be Hindu again :x
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        #32    
      Old May 26th, 2011 (10:59 PM).
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      HarrisonH HarrisonH is offline
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
        Could you list a few passages?
        I know of one passage about slavery, and that is philemon. But, I am quite sure the slavery refered to is the type of prisoner-of-war. They had a lot of war etc at the time. The Bible does not support racism. I am not aware where it promotes sexism tho....
        Contradictions as to who Joseph's father is: Matthew 1:16, Luke 3:23
        Contradictions as to who found the empty tomb: Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1, John 20:1
        Those are just a few examples, go here for more.

        As for the "prisoner of war" type slavery you think it is, where have you ever read anything about prisoners of war being sold and bought?
        Slaves as property: Leviticus 25:44-46
        Hebrew slaves: Exodus 21:2-6
        Selling daughters as slaves: Exodus 21:7-11
        Beating slaves: Exodus 21:20-21

        Sexism in the bible, oh so much
        1 Corinthians 11:3
        1 Corinthians 11:7-9
        1 Corinthians 14:34-35
        Ephesians 5:22-25
        Colossians 3:18
        1 Timothy 2:9-15
        Romans 7:2
        Titus 2:3-5
        And so on.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
        According to the Bible, God actually wrote the Bible himself. Only, he did it through prophets who wrote it down for him. Kinda like scribes.
        Cool. According to Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, it was written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship. That doesn't mean it was actually written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship.
          #33    
        Old May 27th, 2011 (9:41 AM).
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        FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by HarrisonH View Post
          Contradictions as to who Joseph's father is: Matthew 1:16, Luke 3:23
          Contradictions as to who found the empty tomb: Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1, John 20:1
          Those are just a few examples, go here for more.

          As for the "prisoner of war" type slavery you think it is, where have you ever read anything about prisoners of war being sold and bought?
          Slaves as property: Leviticus 25:44-46
          Hebrew slaves: Exodus 21:2-6
          Selling daughters as slaves: Exodus 21:7-11
          Beating slaves: Exodus 21:20-21

          Sexism in the bible, oh so much
          1 Corinthians 11:3
          1 Corinthians 11:7-9
          1 Corinthians 14:34-35
          Ephesians 5:22-25
          Colossians 3:18
          1 Timothy 2:9-15
          Romans 7:2
          Titus 2:3-5
          And so on.


          Cool. According to Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, it was written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship. That doesn't mean it was actually written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship.
          The contradictions of Joseph leave me astounded. Sorry, no answer to that. As to mary, they all say she went to the tomb, its just they give various tidbits as to why. It was Mary Magdalene who went, along with the two other women. Why two books fail to mention the two other women I have no idea, but Mary Magdalene is undoubtly said to have went to the tomb.

          Example of Prisoner-of-War slavery would be in Africa. Europeans didn't actually go and catch slaves, rather, they bought them off of Kings who sold them war-captives from various skirmishes.

          Sexism in the Bible:
          Spoiler:
          Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

          25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.


          It is saying that the woman is undoubtly below the man. Its just the natural order of things. The woman came from man, if you believe the Bible that is. Also, about the passage in corinthians (in spoiler), it is saying that Husbands should love their wives and look after them as if they were their own body. It does not just say that wives should submit. Dont stop midverse. In a marriage, the spouses should both look to God, and love him, and also love each other.

          If you call that sexism, sorry, thats how its written. Not that women should be meek and do nothing, but that they should submit to the husband and not get above them, or in other words take over the marriage by making important decisions. Similarily, the husband is to take counsel from the woman, and they are to act as a team, but the ultimate decision comes down to the man.

          Some slave laws that were in the old testament are no longer in effect. We don't sacrifice lambs anymore, similarily slave laws don't really apply anymore. That would have been Judaism, I think. And in the occasion of having slaves, you are to treat them as humanly as possible.
            #34    
          Old May 27th, 2011 (10:25 AM).
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          HarrisonH HarrisonH is offline
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            The contradictions of Joseph leave me astounded. Sorry, no answer to that. As to mary, they all say she went to the tomb, its just they give various tidbits as to why. It was Mary Magdalene who went, along with the two other women. Why two books fail to mention the two other women I have no idea, but Mary Magdalene is undoubtly said to have went to the tomb.
            While they do all say that Magdalene went, they disagree as to who she went with and why. Additionally, if we expand to the following verses, they all disagree on what happened after the tomb was visited.

            Matthew 28:1-10: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary go to the tomb. An earthquake happens as a angel comes down. The angel scares the guards away, rolls the stone to the side, and proceeds to sit on it. The angel speaks to the women, who then run away. Jesus appears to them as they flee.

            John 20:1-10: Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. Upon seeing that it has been opened, she runs and tells Simon Peter and "the other disciple". Peter and the other disciple run to the tomb. The other disciple arrives first, but stays outside looking at linens. Peter goes in and observes more linens, and soon the other disciple follows.

            Mark 16:1-8: Mary Magdalene, Mary, and Salome go to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. Upon arrival, they see that the tomb has been opened. They walk in, and see a man in white sitting off to the side, who tells them that Jesus has risen. The women all flee, and speak to no one.

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            Example of Prisoner-of-War slavery would be in Africa. Europeans didn't actually go and catch slaves, rather, they bought them off of Kings who sold them war-captives from various skirmishes.
            It's no longer prisoner of war slavery once they are sold from the kings. From then on they are just normal slaves. And even then, why does that make slavery okay? Hint: It doesn't.


            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            It is saying that the woman is undoubtly below the man. Its just the natural order of things.
            That's pretty blatant sexism. There is no way you can argue that it isn't.

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            The woman came from man, if you believe the Bible that is. Also, about the passage in corinthians (in spoiler), it is saying that Husbands should love their wives and look after them as if they were their own body. It does not just say that wives should submit. Dont stop midverse. In a marriage, the spouses should both look to God, and love him, and also love each other.
            And is also says again that "the husband is the head of the wife". That is still sexism, even if it's followed by saying that they love each other.

            What do you have to say about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
            1 Timothy 2:9-15? "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." That's the main juicy part. Again, submission for being lesser than men. Again, blatant sexism.

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            If you call that sexism, sorry, thats how its written. Not that women should be meek and do nothing, but that they should submit to the husband and not get above them, or in other words take over the marriage by making important decisions. Similarily, the husband is to take counsel from the woman, and they are to act as a team, but the ultimate decision comes down to the man.
            I don't call that sexism; That IS sexism. It's absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not the Bible says that men should love their wives, the fact is that the Bible continually stresses that women should also submit and be lesser than the men. That is sexism.


            Quote:
            Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
            Some slave laws that were in the old testament are no longer in effect. We don't sacrifice lambs anymore, similarily slave laws don't really apply anymore. That would have been Judaism, I think. And in the occasion of having slaves, you are to treat them as humanly as possible.
            One would hope that all slave laws in any book were no longer in effect. Where does the Bible say to "treat them humanly"? It says to treat them as property (Leviticus 25:44-46).

            Additionally, how can you argue that Exodus 21:20-21 is in any way humane? "Oh yeah, you can beat them as much as you want. Just don't kill them!"
              #35    
            Old May 27th, 2011 (11:01 AM).
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              I feel like this thread will... Eventually turn into a church for atheists on PC (which is kind of inappropriate seeing as how atheism isn't a religion). Can we not let that happen, please?

              I'm also offended that Darwin is being associated with atheism. If I had to introduce myself, I'm an evolutionist and evolutionary theorist (yeah, there's a difference). As I've expressed countless times in my writing, evolution and religion have nothing to do with each other, are neither opposites nor even in the same sphere of thought. While Evolutionary Theory is a parallel to Creationism (which is often backed by religious individuals), it by no means refutes or is refuted by any religious principle. Regardless, Evolutionary Theory is different from evolution--you can't "believe" in evolution because it's not something you /can/ believe in... It's like saying "I believe blue."

              But honestly, this is the one thing that pisses me off the most. You don't need to be an atheist to know evolution occurs, nor should evolution ever be associated with the atheist philosophy.

              Also, http://www.godlessquotes.com/ -- some pretty strong quotes there, but a lot take unnecessary stabs.

              What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
              • Yes, pro-choice, and circumstantial. I'm not going in-depth about these because my reasonings are far beyond anything religion-based or otherwise.
              Why are your beliefs the way they are?
              • Religion doesn't make any sense to me. I like the moral aspect of it, but everything else is completely absurd to me. I'm a skeptic. How can something portray itself as good when it propagates so much hatred? Religion has persecuted many of my personal beliefs in the past and I've grown far from agnostic due to that. Sure, not all religions are alike, nor are all religious people extremists, but I feel like things would have turned out different if religion never existed.
              Do you believe in any form of life after death?
              • No, but I want there to be... Just to see what it's like.
              Do you believe in aliens?
              • Potentially. The chances of extraterrestrial lifeforms on other planets isn't zero, but it's infinitesimally small (if we're going by abiogenesis, that is).
              Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
              • My friends know that I am a staunch atheist, but that doesn't mean I'm an imposer. My family is generally too lazy to have a religion, though most of them are Buddhist superstitious.
              If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
              • I'm sort of offended that God is capitalized in that question. Anyway, if a god or gods existed, I'm sure that they would be imperceivable by human beings. After all, human perception is far from perfect--we can't see what shrimp see, smell what sharks smell, etc. If a god is omnipotent, then it makes sense that it is on a level that makes it truly transcend its... Underlings?
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                #36    
              Old May 28th, 2011 (6:10 AM). Edited May 28th, 2011 by Shining Raichu.
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              Shining Raichu Shining Raichu is offline
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Gymnotide View Post
              I feel like this thread will... Eventually turn into a church for atheists on PC (which is kind of inappropriate seeing as how atheism isn't a religion). Can we not let that happen, please?

              I'm also offended that Darwin is being associated with atheism. If I had to introduce myself, I'm an evolutionist and evolutionary theorist (yeah, there's a difference). As I've expressed countless times in my writing, evolution and religion have nothing to do with each other, are neither opposites nor even in the same sphere of thought. While Evolutionary Theory is a parallel to Creationism (which is often backed by religious individuals), it by no means refutes or is refuted by any religious principle. Regardless, Evolutionary Theory is different from evolution--you can't "believe" in evolution because it's not something you /can/ believe in... It's like saying "I believe blue."

              But honestly, this is the one thing that pisses me off the most. You don't need to be an atheist to know evolution occurs, nor should evolution ever be associated with the atheist philosophy.
              "A church for atheists" is kind of the idea. Non-atheists are welcomed to join and contribute to the discussion, but at the core, this is a group of people who don't believe in God and who have come together to talk about that.

              Darwin and evolutionary theory may not have been intended to refute religion, but that does not put them in separate spheres of thought. They have been brought together for a reason, and that reason is that a lot of religious people do reject the concept of evolution because it's inconsistent with creation theory. I agree that evolution is common sense and the volume of evidence for it makes it not something one has the option whether or not to believe in, but lol, some people still don't.

              Also - "I believe blue." - I lol'd :P

              AND also - 500th post woo! XD
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                #37    
              Old May 29th, 2011 (12:06 AM).
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              Gymnotide Gymnotide is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
                "A church for atheists" is kind of the idea. Non-atheists are welcomed to join and contribute to the discussion, but at the core, this is a group of people who don't believe in God and who have come together to talk about that.

                Darwin and evolutionary theory may not have been intended to refute religion, but that does not put them in separate spheres of thought. They have been brought together for a reason, and that reason is that a lot of religious people do reject the concept of evolution because it's inconsistent with creation theory. I agree that evolution is common sense and the volume of evidence for it makes it not something one has the option whether or not to believe in, but lol, some people still don't.

                Also - "I believe blue." - I lol'd :P

                AND also - 500th post woo! XD
                My point was that being a "church" is inappropriate because atheism isn't a religion... 'Cause it's an anti-religion.

                Only fundamentalists reject evolution--evolution is merely a process, not the way the process occurs. It's irrefutable that change occurs in species. The only argument you can make is denying it occurs without any grounds, which is the fundamentalist viewpoint. Also, to note Evolutionary Theory is a completely different thing. It describes how and why evolution occurs.

                My point, though, was that evolution can still be a religious force (i.e. God uses evolution to spur creation). Creationism and evolution aren't in the same sphere. Evolution isn't about the creation of life, but its change. You can be Creationist and evolutionist too (but not Creationist and Evolutionary Theorist).

                Furthermore, Evolutionary Theory, as expressed in the thread's titular Darwin fish image, while the opposite of Creationism, isn't an atheistic concept. Sure, radical Creationists or Bible fundamentalists may oppose it, but that doesn't mean ET itself goes against religion (as atheism does). I know quite a few religious individuals who fully understand evolution (and believe Evolutionary Theory).

                Yes, evolution is pseudo-atheistic to certain radical individuals, and Evolutionary Theory even more so. However, that doesn't make it something that should be associated with atheism.

                It's a fine line to draw, I know... But it's also one that needs to be expressed... For the sake of evolutionists.

                'Grats on 500 :)
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                  #38    
                Old May 31st, 2011 (10:02 AM).
                FrostPheonix's Avatar
                FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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                  Spoiler:
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by HarrisonH View Post
                  While they do all say that Magdalene went, they disagree as to who she went with and why. Additionally, if we expand to the following verses, they all disagree on what happened after the tomb was visited.

                  Matthew 28:1-10: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary go to the tomb. An earthquake happens as a angel comes down. The angel scares the guards away, rolls the stone to the side, and proceeds to sit on it. The angel speaks to the women, who then run away. Jesus appears to them as they flee.

                  John 20:1-10: Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. Upon seeing that it has been opened, she runs and tells Simon Peter and "the other disciple". Peter and the other disciple run to the tomb. The other disciple arrives first, but stays outside looking at linens. Peter goes in and observes more linens, and soon the other disciple follows.

                  Mark 16:1-8: Mary Magdalene, Mary, and Salome go to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. Upon arrival, they see that the tomb has been opened. They walk in, and see a man in white sitting off to the side, who tells them that Jesus has risen. The women all flee, and speak to no one.


                  It's no longer prisoner of war slavery once they are sold from the kings. From then on they are just normal slaves. And even then, why does that make slavery okay? Hint: It doesn't.



                  That's pretty blatant sexism. There is no way you can argue that it isn't.


                  And is also says again that "the husband is the head of the wife". That is still sexism, even if it's followed by saying that they love each other.

                  What do you have to say about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
                  1 Timothy 2:9-15? "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." That's the main juicy part. Again, submission for being lesser than men. Again, blatant sexism.


                  I don't call that sexism; That IS sexism. It's absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not the Bible says that men should love their wives, the fact is that the Bible continually stresses that women should also submit and be lesser than the men. That is sexism.



                  One would hope that all slave laws in any book were no longer in effect. Where does the Bible say to "treat them humanly"? It says to treat them as property (Leviticus 25:44-46).

                  Additionally, how can you argue that Exodus 21:20-21 is in any way humane? "Oh yeah, you can beat them as much as you want. Just don't kill them!"


                  lol, some parts for some reason made me laugh. no idea y tho ^^.

                  Ok, first part:
                  The part about woman not talking in church, and to keep quiet: you have to keep this in context. It is saying that women are not to take part in the deciphering of prophecies. For reasons unknown to me, it is the male members of the congregation that are to try and make sense of the prophecy.

                  When it says that the woman does not have permission to be in authority over the man, it is meaning in the church. Women are not to teach men in the about the bible. Not that women are not to become president etc. Its not talking about secular positions such as teachers or president; its talking about positions in the church.

                  And yes, you might take it as sexism, we take it as the Bible. It is NOT irrevelant that husbands should love their wives; if that is true, the power given to them over the woman will not be misused. Bringing no real harm for the woman. The woman still has a lot of power in the household; in case you don't know, women can manipulate men to do their bidding. No offense meant to any girls here, but women do manipulate men actively. not that they should though.

                  Slave laws were really only there because the Isrealites, the people to whom God gave the law, wanted them (slaves). Similarily, the Isrealites got a king only because they begged God for one, even if he said they don't need one and shouldn't get one. It eventually leads to their downfall, with bad kings of Israel and Judah leading to the kingdoms being razed and captured by the Assyrians and Babylonians, I think.



                  Sorry that I took so long to post a reply, I needed time plus I needed some help from some other christians I knew to answer them. Since I have exams next week, I might not reply as soon next time.
                    #39    
                  Old May 31st, 2011 (10:38 AM).
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                  Åzurε Åzurε is offline
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                    I'd like to clarify something. Don't get antsy though, I'm just passing through.

                    For now.

                    Joseph's genealogy: to my understanding, Heli was Mary's father, and Joseph's father-in-law. Jacob was his literal father. As you may have realized, Jews had a very patriarchal culture, so this would have made good sense to them.

                    Keep on with it, Frosty. Nice to see another debate-inclined Jesus Freak around here! Visit Other Chat sometime, we'll have a ball.
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                      #40    
                    Old May 31st, 2011 (11:24 AM).
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                    FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Åzurε View Post
                      I'd like to clarify something. Don't get antsy though, I'm just passing through.

                      For now.

                      Joseph's genealogy: to my understanding, Heli was Mary's father, and Joseph's father-in-law. Jacob was his literal father. As you may have realized, Jews had a very patriarchal culture, so this would have made good sense to them.

                      Keep on with it, Frosty. Nice to see another debate-inclined Jesus Freak around here! Visit Other Chat sometime, we'll have a ball.
                      Yeah, the explanation makes sense.

                      Nice to hear that someone supports me, hope to see you around!
                        #41    
                      Old May 31st, 2011 (1:50 PM).
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                      NurseBarbra NurseBarbra is offline
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
                      Slave laws were really only there because the Isrealites, the people to whom God gave the law, wanted them (slaves). Similarily, the Isrealites got a king only because they begged God for one, even if he said they don't need one and shouldn't get one. It eventually leads to their downfall, with bad kings of Israel and Judah leading to the kingdoms being razed and captured by the Assyrians and Babylonians, I think.
                      What ever happened to threating eachother as you wish to be treated.. Wait... Did all the Isrealites wish to be treated as slaves?
                      That's just further proof that religion can be bent to a person's individual desires.
                      (I like this thread.I normally don't get this much intelligent conversation in a month , let alone a day.)

                      And I think we strayed off topic a SLIGHT bit... So... NEW TOPIC!

                      If you could create on creature, based on evolution, what would it look like, where would it live, and what would it's value be to the world?
                        #42    
                      Old May 31st, 2011 (7:04 PM).
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by NurseBarbra View Post
                        What ever happened to threating eachother as you wish to be treated.. Wait... Did all the Isrealites wish to be treated as slaves?
                        That's just further proof that religion can be bent to a person's individual desires.
                        (I like this thread.I normally don't get this much intelligent conversation in a month , let alone a day.)

                        And I think we strayed off topic a SLIGHT bit... So... NEW TOPIC!

                        If you could create on creature, based on evolution, what would it look like, where would it live, and what would it's value be to the world?
                        Honestly, I wouldn't change a thing. With the immense diversity we have now, every species on Earth as of now is an evolutionary titan. We have komodo dragons that intentionally infect their mouths to gangrene to make them deadlier predators to sea slugs that can turn themselves photosynthetic by stealing chloroplasts from plants. Axolotls stay infant forever because it grants them regeneration and underwater breathing. Some creatures can break their own bones and use them as weapons while others can speak telepathically using pheromones.

                        I don't think I can do any better than nature.
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                          #43    
                        Old May 31st, 2011 (7:16 PM).
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                        I'm just here to point out that nitpicking the Bible to disprove Christianity is pure fallacy. The gospels themselves were scribed several generations after Jesus had died by four evangelists from different corners of the known world at the time. Several generations of verbal tradition will make awkward inconsistencies. The important thing is to get the general theme of a passage, not the details.

                        In addition, every book in the Bible was written, edited, and compiled by imperfect men and translated and re-translated more times than anyone can tell. It's hardly worthy of being labelled "the absolute word of God" anymore...

                        ...but that doesn't disprove anything. It's all human error. This just means that Christians and other theists in general have to find their own way to God rather than put too much faith in their books.
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                          #44    
                        Old May 31st, 2011 (8:06 PM).
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                        I will start by saying that I was raised Roman Catholic, but very loosely. And I independently decided on the thinking of an Agnostic. Also loosely, so the proper definition would be that I simply do not pay attention to what is not in the material world.

                        I believe all religions are flawed. People were killed over the beliefs of others throughout history. The source of all this was ignorance. Scary how we still see so much ignorance today, isn't it? I can just smell the World War III within my lifetime.

                        Socrates said: "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."

                        I'm just barely beginning studies in philosophy, and yet I feel like a lot of things are and will become clear to me. Faith is not Knowledge. And if Socrates's words are words to live by, then Faith is not good.

                        As I said, people killed over their believes- over their faiths- in the past because people were ignorant. So the cause of the spread of one's faith was ignorance. Ignorance being evil, the concept of faith itself should be evil.

                        And even today, Faith still has elements of that evil as a result of ignorance, the ignorance towards the truth because one is preoccupied with emotions in the immaterial/supernatural. We do not know anything about the immaterial. So there is no good in faith, and faith is based on the evil of mankind.

                        Ignorance could also mean being blind to the concept of merely seeking the truth. 'Extremist' Christians do not seek knowing the truth, they merely believe blindly. To know means to justify and prove that belief. But of course it's not always a Christian's fault that he is Christian, for the ignorance of the parents is forever imprinted into the wet concrete of a child.

                        And maybe... that's the greatest evil of all: To forever imprint your ignorance on youth.


                        I also have to say something about extreme Atheists. These people claim to 'know' there is no God. But that is of course philosophically wrong, because you can't prove there is no God just like you can't prove there is one. By being Agnostic, you refuse to know that God does or does not exist. You might believe, given you can distinguish between belief and knowledge, one or the other. But I also refuse to pass judgment on what I believe.

                        I believe the bible was written by ordinary men. We don't know if there is a God. So we might not know that the bible is the 'Word of God'. However, it is more reasonable to believe it simply isn't. By claiming the bible is the Word of God, we must assume that God exists. If we claim the bible is not the Word of God, we do not necessarily claim that there is no God, but simply that the book people place so much faith in is just a collection of stories meant to provide moral guidelines, and nothing more.

                        I also believe people should live a life with two objectives: The avoidance of pain for oneself and others, and the seeking of truth. That is all. I do not believe I need a set of moral guidelines. I can form my own morals from what I can deduce from the truth.
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                          #45    
                        Old May 31st, 2011 (9:28 PM). Edited May 31st, 2011 by Gymnotide.
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                          Can we ban talking about loopholes in the Bible and other religious texts? They aren't conducive to positive discussion and only perpetuate unresolvable quarrels on the grounds that "things can be interpreted differently". After all, this is atheism club, not disprove religion club. There's a slight difference.

                          Atheism isn't the rejection of religion; it's the rejection that there are deities, hence a + theos from Classical Greek.
                          Are there any atheistic Buddhists or Hindus here? :)
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                            #46    
                          Old June 1st, 2011 (9:23 PM).
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                          HarrisonH HarrisonH is offline
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by AdvancedK47 View Post
                            I also have to say something about extreme Atheists. These people claim to 'know' there is no God. But that is of course philosophically wrong, because you can't prove there is no God just like you can't prove there is one. By being Agnostic, you refuse to know that God does or does not exist. You might believe, given you can distinguish between belief and knowledge, one or the other.
                            This is a rather common misconception. Agnosticism is not the middle ground between atheism and theism. Agnostic and gnostic have only to do with knowledge of anything, not exclusively the belief in gods. Agnosticism is not knowing for certain, gnosticism is knowing for certain.

                            Examples:
                            Agnostic Theist - "I don't think we can know if there's a god or not, but I choose to believe in one"
                            Agnostic Atheist - "I don't think we can know if there's a god or not, but I don't think there is."
                            Gnostic Theist - "I know for certain that there is a God."
                            Gnostic Atheist - "I know for certain that there is no god."

                            That's just the simplest way to put it. If you want to see the differences more in-depth, see this infographic..


                            Now, for a question a bit more meaningful:
                            What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three?
                              #47    
                            Old June 2nd, 2011 (2:37 AM).
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                            FrostPheonix FrostPheonix is offline
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                              I guess it is good that they are upholding the law, but why are they making such a wind about a simple prayer? I mean, its kinda against the law, but its abt a minute. Whats so bad about that?
                                #48    
                              Old June 2nd, 2011 (6:51 AM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by FrostPheonix View Post
                              I guess it is good that they are upholding the law, but why are they making such a wind about a simple prayer? I mean, its kinda against the law, but its abt a minute. Whats so bad about that?
                              Unfortunatally, People just can't learn to shut up for all of 5 minutes. Like seriousally, Why can't they just listen to the view point, weigh it objectivally, and then make a rational decision. Just because they don't like a prayer banner, doesn't mean they should go on a warpath. What ever happened to just ignoring the matter for the greater good, It's not like the poster dramatically changes their life so much that they can't live anymore...

                              (Yes, It's amazing, The one time that I actually DEFEND religion... It burns to think about it let alone do it.....)
                                #49    
                              Old June 2nd, 2011 (2:29 PM).
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                                Quote:
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                                Now, for a question a bit more meaningful:
                                What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three?
                                Radicalism is the bane of rationality.
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                                  #50    
                                Old June 3rd, 2011 (7:50 AM).
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                                Steven Steven is offline
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                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by HarrisonH View Post
                                What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three?
                                Hurray for fighting against hypocrisy in the law!

                                Freedom of Religion also gives you the freedom from Religion. Schools doing that shouldn't be allowed.
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