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Old August 23rd, 2007 (11:54 AM).
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Okay, while reading many threads I keep seeing people posting "Guts does not negate the flame orb's attack drop." Others disagree and say guts does indeed negate the attack drop from the burn. Sorry if there is a thread like this, but I wanna know the truth backed up with a source...or something. That way we don't mislead people who can be noobish, like me.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (11:57 AM).
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Guts does NOT Negate the attack loss. It cancels it out. In other words if you use the flame orb, it's like your pokemon doesn't have a flame orb, or guts. It just gets hurt every turn. Toxic orb is the way to go.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (11:59 AM).
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Okay, anything to back it up? I believe you, it's just I can't take anybody's word if somebady posts the opposite thing...
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (12:01 PM).
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Kazaam is right. Guts boosts attack by 1.5 and burn statud cuts attack by 50%. Simple really.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (12:04 PM).
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Okay. If anyone wants to strenthen the argument please do. That way we can be sure, but I think you're right.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (12:31 PM).
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Wow. Let's actually get a source here please. Guts negates the attack drop from burn.

Proof: Simply really, go on netbattle and have a Dusclops burn a Machamp. Drag your mouse over Machamp and look at it's attack.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (12:41 PM).
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yeah it cancels it out.....no higher no lower.......
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (1:09 PM).
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Quote:
Originally posted by Serebii.net

Guts

Games Text:
Ups Attack if suffering

In-Battle Effect:
Attack raises to 1.5 times the normal when induced with a status (Burn, Paralyze, Sleep, Poison, Freeze). Burns effect of lowering Attack is still applied.
Hope thats proof enough for yas'
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (1:24 PM).
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You all fail at math.

Let's assume both effects take in place, just as Serebii.net mentions:
ATK rating x 1.5 x 0.5 = ATK rating x 0,75 => lower than the original.

That's all hypothetical, based on Serebii data. So Toxic orb is the way to go for the guts bonus.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (1:28 PM).
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Apply the text, to in game. Use netbattle for a source. Even use your DS as a source. Text means nothing.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (3:43 PM).
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As expected, disagreement has occured. I want a source, one that has INDISPUTABLE evidence (or evidence that can only be interpreted one way) so that this question can forever be answered. Really, people need to know. Well, anyone have proof?
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (4:45 PM).
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Read my last post. Thats proof.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (4:55 PM).
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If there's any reasonable proof, I would go with Sean's. Quick Feet's description are much like Guts but applies to speed (and it says speed reduced to 75% instead of 50% when Paralyzed) according to Psypoke.

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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:00 PM).
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-_- did u miss out?

sean didn't give proof, sean gave an equation to how much damage Guts+Flame Orb will do.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:13 PM).
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The equation is pretty good proof. Considering how many systems in Pokemon are worked mathematically like that. (Like 4x Super Effective hits, or 0x damage even when an attack type is super-effective against a Pokemon. i.e Thunderbolt on Swampert) Websites and encyclopedias have been wrong before.

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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:24 PM).
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The game has also been wrong before. I forgot for which move tho >_o
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:30 PM).
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Critical-Hits do inflict double the normal damage and stat changes made irrelevant (only during damage calculation).

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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:35 PM).
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I really don't think it matters anymore, the topic of this thread is which is better, we have obviously found that toxic orb is better so why are we discussing it?
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:40 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Kazaam~ View Post
I really don't think it matters anymore, the topic of this thread is which is better, we have obviously found that toxic orb is better so why are we discussing it?
Actually, you came up with your own answer and said Toxic Orb is better than Flame Orb. The question was: Which of these following statements is true? Guts negate attack being lowered by Burn and raises it, or Burn still reduces attack with Guts.

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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:44 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Actually, you came up with your own answer and said Toxic Orb is better than Flame Orb. The question was: Which of these following statements is true? Guts negate attack being lowered by Burn and raises it, or Burn still reduces attack with Guts.

Jordan.
Well just to let you know, I just misread the name of the post, I thought it said toxic/flame orb but it says burn/flame orb.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:44 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Actually, you came up with your own answer and said Toxic Orb is better than Flame Orb. The question was: Which of these following statements is true? Guts negate attack being lowered by Burn and raises it, or Burn still reduces attack with Guts.

Jordan.
Already answered 3 posts before. The point of this thread was if you use Burn Orb with Guts or not.
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Old August 23rd, 2007 (5:49 PM).
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He said he wanted a definite and indisputable answer. As of current, it is still debated. I guess you are partly right about him asking about Burn Orb, but I still stand by.

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Old August 23rd, 2007 (6:26 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-Pop Culture Warrior 13 View Post
As expected, disagreement has occured. I want a source, one that has INDISPUTABLE evidence (or evidence that can only be interpreted one way) so that this question can forever be answered. Really, people need to know. Well, anyone have proof?
Netbattle/Your pokemon game isn't proof enough?

For further proof, a topic of this nature has been discussed, and about serebii being wrong about this issue:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21056

Enjoy.
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Old August 24th, 2007 (4:22 AM).
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Towlie is right. Guts completely ignores the Attk drop and just multiplies by 1.5, the same as if you were holding a Choice Band. Quick Feet works the same way in ignoring the Paralysis speed drop. Serebii has been wrong so many times before, but I trust Smogon.

If you want proof, get into a battle with a Guts Pokemon holding Flame Orb. Since Flame Orbs activate at the end of the turn, you are not burned for the first turn of the battle. Use a physical attack (not Facade, preferably not very effective so you can note the damage without KOing something), look at the damage done. Then the next turn you will be burned. Attack again, and you will do roughly 1.5x the damage. There's your proof.
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Old August 24th, 2007 (11:24 AM).
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Well, that's the proof we needed. Okay, thanks for that. Well, mods can lock this if they wish, but it's really helpful to know the true answer. Okay, thanks.
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