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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:10 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funke View Post
I agree with the Modest. I just seem to always OHKO with tri attack and not as often with
icebeam tbolt and shadowball.
Well that should be a given. Porygon-Z gets a double STAB off of Tri Attack, it should be hurting things more than its other moves (and BTW Dark Pulse > Shadow Ball). Life Orb boosts everything, not just one attack.
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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:19 AM).
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Thing is, he isn't nearly as fast with Modest, so I say, why bother? Make it more bulky, if that's the case.
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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:23 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sims796 View Post
Thing is, he isn't nearly as fast with Modest, so I say, why bother? Make it more bulky, if that's the case.
True, the only time id ever consider Modest, is to OHKO Blissey, with an Adaptability Nasty Plot Life Orb'd Hyper Beam =/
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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:40 AM).
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My vote definitely goes for ModestSpecs Porygon-Z. Even when Tri Attack is NVE, it still usually 2HKO's.

Anyway, Porygon-Z's Tri attack 3HKO's Blissey if you use ModestSpecs.
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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:45 AM).
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WOW WOW WOW Guys ? Why are we concerned about power, it has Frikkin Nasty Plot and a Life Orb. Good luck getting outsped by Lucario, mence, Electivire and god know what else....
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Old March 28th, 2008 (10:54 AM).
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Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post
WOW WOW WOW Guys ? Why are we concerned about power, it has Frikkin Nasty Plot and a Life Orb. Good luck getting outsped by Lucario, mence, Electivire and god know what else....
Please tell me how exactly those are going to survive the switch-in.

EDIT: Porygon-Z is all about power. I see your argument, I just don't care if the practically obsolete Electivire outspeeds me. Also, don't most Lucario have a priority move to kill you anyways and isn't DDmence extemely common? That said, I'm not too worried.
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Old March 28th, 2008 (11:09 AM). Edited March 28th, 2008 by Dark Azelf.
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Please tell me how exactly those are going to survive the switch-in.

EDIT: Porygon-Z is all about power. I see your argument, I just don't care if the practically obsolete Electivire outspeeds me. Also, don't most Lucario have a priority move to kill you anyways and isn't DDmence extemely common? That said, I'm not too worried.
279 SPEED with Modest really isnt sweeping speed, having to switch out of threats who you should be outspeeding, is kinda lol....


306 speed with Timid is so much better, it even outspeeds neutral Garchomps, besides this porygon has Nasty Plot, and it can easily make up the the sp.att loss, it even has a Life Orb. However, it cant make up its speed.
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Old March 28th, 2008 (11:21 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post
279 SPEED with Modest really isnt sweeping speed, having to switch out of threats who you should be outspeeding, is kinda lol....


306 speed with Timid is so much better, it even outspeeds neutral Garchomps, besides this porygon has Nasty Plot, and it can easily make up the the sp.att loss it even has a Life Orb. However, it can make up its speed.
I completely agree with D_A on this one Anti.

I mean come on after you set up a Nasty plot whats modest doing for you? Almost nothing whatsoever and then having to switch out after setting up because of threats that out speed you is pretty much fail. ;p
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Old March 30th, 2008 (8:41 AM).
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Good I see some pokemon are stalling your enemy.Not what I'd do but it's a smart move. A your Umbreon is a healer to itself.

Ten to One, it's a good and decent team.
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Old April 4th, 2008 (11:56 PM). Edited April 5th, 2008 by Goldeneyes.
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okay ive reposted peeps sorry about the wait
take a look!
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Old April 5th, 2008 (9:22 PM).
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Get rid of the wide lens on garchomp i would recommend life orb or expert belt instead.
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Old April 6th, 2008 (12:20 AM).
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yeh i agree with pew

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Old April 6th, 2008 (12:29 AM).
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[email protected] Life Orb(eved in spatk252/speed252/hp6)
Modest
Psychic
Tri Attack
Ice beam
Recover

I like this one, but maybe a Togeikiss would be a better choice?
8/10


[email protected] Expert Belt ( eved in atk252/speed252/hp6)
Jolly
Swords Dance
Stone Edge
Dragon claw
Earthquake

I'm not much of a fan of attacks that raise/ lower stats, but it's still good.
9/10



[email protected] Focus Sash ( eved in speed252/hp252/def4)
Jolly
Toxic
Confuse Ray
Roost
aerial ace

Doesn't have good enough attacks in its moveset, I'd probaly replace it.
7/10


[email protected] Leftovers (eved in hp252/def129/spdef129)
Toxic
Confuse Ray
Dark Pulse
Moonlight

Once again, I don't like the moveset, and I think Tyranitar (Rock/Dark) would bea better choice.
6/10

[email protected] Leftovers(eved in hp252/spdef252/def4)
Sing
Softboiled
Toxic
Focus Blast

I really think you should consider replacing the weak Blissey. All it is is Hp and Special Defense.
5/10

[email protected] Choice Specs(eved in spAtk252/spe252/hp4)
Energy Ball
Sludge Bomb
Shadow Ball
Double Team

I like this choiceand I think the moeset is ok, just ok.
8/10


I rate this team 7.5/10
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Old April 6th, 2008 (9:55 AM).
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Dadboys121, the rules clearly state not to rate without proper team rating knowledge which, I'm afraid, is exactly what you're doing. Take a look around other topics and don't post before you know how team rating is done. It may sound harsh, but let's face it, your rate isn't helping anyone. Magnem101, your post was just pointless. Don't spam.
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Old April 7th, 2008 (6:38 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daboys121 View Post
[email protected] Life Orb(eved in spatk252/speed252/hp6)
Modest
Psychic
Tri Attack
Ice beam
Recover

I like this one, but maybe a Togeikiss would be a better choice?
8/10

No,it would not be a better choice.Togekiss is meant to be bulky in some sort of way.While Porygon-Z is meant to try to destroy everything and is weak in defense.Psychic is wrong because it has minor type coverage and your whole moveset is walled by Steel types.Psychic should be replaced with HP Fighting to give a chance to fight Steel types and Dark Pulse over Recover since this thing isn't meant to be bulky and I believe Dark+Fighting hits everything in the game for at least neutral?


[email protected] Expert Belt ( eved in atk252/speed252/hp6)
Jolly
Swords Dance/Fire Blast
Stone Edge
Dragon claw
Earthquake

I'm not much of a fan of attacks that raise/ lower stats, but it's still good.
9/10

Excuse me?You're not a fan?Curselax would not be Curselax without Curse.It wouldn't be able to boost it's offensive force and 65 Base Defense without Curse and could easily die to a Close Combat from Flame Orb Heracross.I believe Life Orb or Leftovers is prefered for this set.Fire Blast could actually do something to kill Bronzong and hurt Skarmory.



[email protected] Focus Sash ( eved in speed252/hp252/def4)
Jolly
Toxic
Confuse Ray
Roost
aerial ace

Doesn't have good enough attacks in its moveset, I'd probaly replace it.
7/10

I think Aerial Ace has been replaced with a better move called Brave Bird have you ever heard of it?Focus Sash just doesn't work thanks to weather like Sandstorm and Hail.I forgot the standard moveset for this but you can look for it,right?


[email protected] Leftovers (eved in hp252/def129/spdef129)
Toxic
Confuse Ray
Dark Pulse
Moonlight

Once again, I don't like the moveset, and I think Tyranitar (Rock/Dark) would bea better choice.
6/10

Honestly,Umbreon just can't live in the current generation.Specsmence crushes it with Draco Meteor,Garchomp uses Outrage/Earthquake to kill it,Gyarados uses Taunt and you can only Dark Pulse which would bounce off of Gyarados.It's HP really isn't helping it either.It's defenses at least need to be bulky to last and 129 EVs just isn't enough.So take this thing off and replace it with something else Skarmory since this team has no physical wall.
[email protected] Leftovers(eved in hp252/spdef252/def4)
Sing
Softboiled
Toxic
Focus Blast

I really think you should consider replacing the weak Blissey. All it is is Hp and Special Defense.
5/10

Bad advice.Blissey is one of the most famous walls and can easily be called one of the best with it's huge HP and ability to be a fine special wall and one of the few that can last this generation.


[email protected] Choice Specs(eved in spAtk252/spe252/hp4)
Energy Ball
Sludge Bomb
Shadow Ball
Double Team

I like this choiceand I think the moeset is ok, just ok.
8/10

Sludge Bomb has horrible coverage so Leaf Storm could go over it for mass destruction since I assume it can 1HKO a Bulkydos.Double Team is banned so no.I suppose Leaf Storm could go over that if you stay with Sludge Bomb.
I rate this team 7.5/10
We do not need a huge rating.This isn't a rating either.It's just mocking one of the greatest walls,allowing Double Team to be used and useless ratings with words that aren't even spelled right.
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Old April 7th, 2008 (8:37 PM).
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How many neutral Garchomps are out there? Seriously ._.

Predicting switch-ins is very easy once you've scouted for awhile, nothing can survive Tri Atatck more than once except those that resist it and hardcore special walls, and we have Nasty Plot for that. Very few of what I mentioned can take a Tri attack will outspeed Porygon-Z.

Heracross doesn't have sweeping speed either, yet people run Adamant CB Heracross, which is a very good set BTW. LO Tri Attack has power like those CB attacks, only you can choose your attacks and have Nasty Plot. IMO, it's a special version of CBcross that is improved.

Timid doesn't help Porygon-Z, it might outspeed a lot of things it can't with Modest, but most of those can't switch in and many are rarely seen anyways. For me, the Z is all abouit power. When I used Timidm it was outperformed by Modest. Pory Z is one of those sweepers I actually use (or when I actually went on shoddy), Modest really has outperformed Timid, at least for me.

Sorry, but I've always thought speed is overrated and I think it's true here more than ever. Porygon-Z is slow either way, you might as well make other things switching into it take 70% from Tri Attack, and you can wall whatever that threat is if it's so fast, and then come back in and all of a sudden that isn't a safe switch anymore.

What I'm saying is that Modest > Timid basically because Timid has no benefits I really care about, and I don't think anybody else should really care about outspeeding neutral Garchomp, who is extremely rare.

I always enjoy a good, civilized argument though :) I don't really think we can prove each other wrong, so maybe we should just shut up with our differences of opinion, lol :P

Also, correcting a rate that Smarties already established as being bad isn't really helping either. In other words, I think after being told once, Daboys121 understands the rate wasn't good. I don't see how reinforcing that fact really helps.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (6:38 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-Pop View Post
How many neutral Garchomps are out there? Seriously ._.

Predicting switch-ins is very easy once you've scouted for awhile, nothing can survive Tri Atatck more than once except those that resist it and hardcore special walls, and we have Nasty Plot for that. Very few of what I mentioned can take a Tri attack will outspeed Porygon-Z.

Heracross doesn't have sweeping speed either, yet people run Adamant CB Heracross, which is a very good set BTW. LO Tri Attack has power like those CB attacks, only you can choose your attacks and have Nasty Plot. IMO, it's a special version of CBcross that is improved.

Timid doesn't help Porygon-Z, it might outspeed a lot of things it can't with Modest, but most of those can't switch in and many are rarely seen anyways. For me, the Z is all abouit power. When I used Timidm it was outperformed by Modest. Pory Z is one of those sweepers I actually use (or when I actually went on shoddy), Modest really has outperformed Timid, at least for me.

Sorry, but I've always thought speed is overrated and I think it's true here more than ever. Porygon-Z is slow either way, you might as well make other things switching into it take 70% from Tri Attack, and you can wall whatever that threat is if it's so fast, and then come back in and all of a sudden that isn't a safe switch anymore.

What I'm saying is that Modest > Timid basically because Timid has no benefits I really care about, and I don't think anybody else should really care about outspeeding neutral Garchomp, who is extremely rare.

I always enjoy a good, civilized argument though :) I don't really think we can prove each other wrong, so maybe we should just shut up with our differences of opinion, lol :P

Also, correcting a rate that Smarties already established as being bad isn't really helping either. In other words, I think after being told once, Daboys121 understands the rate wasn't good. I don't see how reinforcing that fact really helps.
Yes,I get it.I also tryed to help the original person who asked for a rating.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (7:35 AM). Edited April 8th, 2008 by Dark Azelf.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-Pop View Post
How many neutral Garchomps are out there? Seriously ._.

There are quite a few on shoddy ive seen actually. Mainly be used on the SUB Bright Powder Swords Dance sets.

Predicting switch-ins is very easy once you've scouted for awhile, nothing can survive Tri Atatck more than once except those that resist it and hardcore special walls, and we have Nasty Plot for that. Very few of what I mentioned can take a Tri attack will outspeed Porygon-Z.

So, once youve killed something, your gonna switch out ? due to getting outsped. Porygon-z CANNOT switch in for crap, it cant afford to keep coming back in, once your in OUTSPEED and do as much damage as possible.


Heracross doesn't have sweeping speed either, yet people run Adamant CB Heracross, which is a very good set BTW. LO Tri Attack has power like those CB attacks, only you can choose your attacks and have Nasty Plot. IMO, it's a special version of CBcross that is improved.


hera different, its more bulky and can actually take a hit when it comes in. Porygon -z can not due to lack of resistances.


Timid doesn't help Porygon-Z, it might outspeed a lot of things it can't with Modest, but most of those can't switch in and many are rarely seen anyways. For me, the Z is all abouit power. When I used Timid it was outperformed by Modest. Pory Z is one of those sweepers I actually use (or when I actually went on shoddy), Modest really has outperformed Timid, at least for me.


Sorry, but how does timid not help ? You have nasty plot and a Life Orb on your dam set, it needs the speed not the power. Things are gonna wall the dude either way, its what comes in after. It they send in Salamence, Elecitivire and god knows what else is in that base 90 and 100 speed area your gonna have to switch out and lose your nasty plots.


Sorry, but I've always thought speed is overrated and I think it's true here more than ever. Porygon-Z is slow either way, you might as well make other things switching into it take 70% from Tri Attack, and you can wall whatever that threat is if it's so fast, and then come back in and all of a sudden that isn't a safe switch anymore.

How is it overated, in a speed orientated metagame =/


What I'm saying is that Modest > Timid basically because Timid has no benefits I really care about, and I don't think anybody else should really care about outspeeding neutral Garchomp, who is extremely rare.

Apart from outspeeding all base 100 neutral nature speed pokemon.

I always enjoy a good, civilized argument though :) I don't really think we can prove each other wrong, so maybe we should just shut up with our differences of opinion, lol :P
Tier 2 (90 to <110 base speed)


* 306 - +nature/252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)

Tier 3 (70 to <90 base speed)

* 303 - 252 Garchomp (102)
* 299 - 252 Zapdos, Celebi, Slaking, Flygon, Salamence, Jirachi, Regigigas, Staraptor Manaphy, Shaymin(100)
* 295 - +nature/252 Heracross, Suicune, Kingdra (85)
* 289 - 252 Houndoom, Jynx, Drapion, Yanmega, Leafeon, Gliscor, Uxie, Electivire (95)
* 287 - +nature/252 Gyarados (81)
* 284 - +nature/252 Dragonite, Blaziken, Gardevoir, Medicham, Mesprit,Togekiss, Mamoswine (80)
* 279 - 252 Moltres, Lucario, Pikachu, PorygonZ, Roserade, Zangoose (90)

Ive bolded all the important dudes that it will be outrunning with timid.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (9:02 AM).
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Don't take the critisiscm to the heart, but if you're going to keep Crobat teach it some attacks, as Umbreon can be a wall and an annoyer
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Old April 8th, 2008 (9:07 AM).
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Don't take the critisiscm to the heart, but if you're going to keep Crobat teach it some attacks, as Umbreon can be a wall and an annoyer
Umbreon has really lost it's touch as a wall this gen, the main reasoning being the addition of Focus Blast, Aura Sphere, Close Combat, etcetera.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (9:14 AM).
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Yeah, Umbreon best job is Trap passing.


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252 HP / 252 def / 6 sp.DEF
Sassy Nature
- mean look
- Baton pass
- Yawn
- Wish


Evs and nature here give you pretty much equal defenses :

Yawn stuff and mean look something thats cant do ass to you on the switch, Yawn again and pass to a counter for a few turns of set up whilst the opposing poke falls asleep.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (9:20 AM).
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Originally Posted by Dark_Azelf View Post
Yeah, Umbreon best job is Trap passing.


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252 HP / 252 SP.DEF / 6 DEF
Relaxed Nature
- mean look
- Baton pass
- Yawn
- Wish


Evs and nature here give you pretty much equal defenses :

Yawn stuff and mean look something thats cant do ass to you on the switch, Yawn again and pass to a counter for a few turns of set up whilst the opposing poke falls asleep.
Yup. That's all it can really do is trap a pokemon that it can survive and switch with BP.

Even then, it hardly does a "good job" at it, since usually, 1-2 pokes is the max on what you're going to be killing. But then again, It's just a wall, and Isn't meant for sweeping or anything.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (11:29 AM).
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Porygon-Z just switches in on outmatched walls and can set up or attack. It isn't the kind of sweeper that is fast and can stay in and NP sweep, in all honesty hit and run is much more effective with it from my experiences. Really, it's frail, slow even with Timid...I don't see why trying to outspeed things is going to help you.

Also, the metagame is wrong. Speed is terribly overrated as an asset, especially for sweepers like Porygon-Z. If you want speed, Scarf it. That's the way I see it. Also, Garchomp is officially uber here, is it not?

I reiterate, outspeeding base 100 sweepers and all that is tremendously overvalued. I might not be out best battler skill-wise in 4th gen, but I can tell you with 100% conviction that you do NOT need speed to win, even with attacking pokemon.

I think our real disagreement (yes, I'm going to pull a Dr. Phil here) lies in the fact that we use the same set in two totally different ways. The way I use it doesn't require it needs speed, while you intend to try to sweep more things more quickly, which probably would require timid. Personally, I don't think it's best used that way...but you do.

So in that regard I'm going to say we're both correct. Writing off Modest is a very bad idea though, I assure you. Modest NP Porygon-Z is a beast. I suppose it depends on the thread starter's style of play as to which nature he or she chooses.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (11:34 AM).
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I completely agree with Anti's side of the argument.

In a way, Specsmence doesn't have Timid, it has Modest, so I guess that's a fair comparison.
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Old April 8th, 2008 (11:40 AM).
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Well, that's a bit different, I just think Modest is just as viable if Modest, if not better.

I will say though, you almost have to play them differently (though that largely depends on the opponent). I'm not saying timid is terrible, but the extra speed is really overvalued IMO. Put in all the pokemon you want, most are rare occasions to come across, like a specs Gyarados.

Either way, I think we've both presented or arguments about as much as possible. I say we call it a draw...
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