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  #12576    
Old September 9th, 2009 (11:53 PM).
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    I don't currently have Adventure 02, but I do plan on doing a full episode-by-episode review on it. And I can personally vouch that season four was crap.

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      #12577    
    Old September 9th, 2009 (11:56 PM).
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      If you are going to make statements such as that, it would behoove you to back them up with actual proof.
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        #12578    
      Old September 10th, 2009 (12:03 AM).
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        Behoove me? Oookay...

        I don't see how I can back up a statement of opinion with "proof", but I will attempt to clarify that opinion. The premise was recycled from the first season "Group of kids transported to new world and need to get back home", the animation was stilted and obviously had most of the work put on the 'tweeners, the characters were bland and uninteresting (again recycled from the first season, this time using the characters), and the entire point of Digimon, that of human-Digimon pairing, was replaced with this "Turn into a Digimon" crap. The pantheon of Digimon villains is also vaguely reminiscent of the Devas in Tamers. I found the whole thing to be contrived, as did many of my other Digimon-fan friends.

        (As for Adventure 02, I don't recall any of those three being plot holes. The Dark Ocean, if anything, was simply an unexplored plot line. It didn't destroy the fabric of the story or anything)
          #12579    
        Old September 10th, 2009 (1:14 AM).
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        OK, Dracula.

        1] I found the epistolary style incredibly confusing also, to the point where I didn't actually finish it. Partly out of frustration, and partly as a petty act of rebellion against the English curriculum.
        2] Apparently the ending was a complete and utter anti-climax. Something about killing him in his sleep?
        3] Bram, you fool. Who gives two characters the same name? More to the point, a name as forgettable as John? Eh?
        4] In favour of the book, it utilised a very effective sense of paranoia.
        5] Who's seen Dracula: Dead and Loving It? Hell, that was a good movie!
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          #12580    
        Old September 10th, 2009 (2:16 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Sparkling Dragon View Post
        OK, Dracula.

        1] I found the epistolary style incredibly confusing also, to the point where I didn't actually finish it. Partly out of frustration, and partly as a petty act of rebellion against the English curriculum.
        2] Apparently the ending was a complete and utter anti-climax. Something about killing him in his sleep?
        3] Bram, you fool. Who gives two characters the same name? More to the point, a name as forgettable as John? Eh?
        4] In favour of the book, it utilised a very effective sense of paranoia.
        5] Who's seen Dracula: Dead and Loving It? Hell, that was a good movie!
        I'm rebelling against Geography in (almost) its entirety. As in, not studying, not bringing the right books on the assigned days, and certainly not paying for the field trips...
        Wut? Why would... Never mind.
        He called two characters John? I hope he at least referred to one as Jack, or summat...
        Paranoia = Fear
        Fear --> Anger ---> Hate ----> THE DARK SIDE -----> Chainsaws ---> Cake
        Therefore, paranoia = good.
        *head asplodes*

        I haven't...
          #12581    
        Old September 10th, 2009 (4:55 AM).
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        Originally Posted by Astinus View Post
        It's also the Digimon season that I based buying my car around. (Oh boy, is that story interesting.)
        Oh come on, you gotta tell us, now that you've mentioned it. XD
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          #12582    
        Old September 10th, 2009 (8:11 AM).
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          I'm half-asleep and in pain and I'm ~arguing on the Internet~, so I'm not going to cover everything, but I'll say something that's been bothering me.

          Quote:
          I don't see how I can back up a statement of opinion with "proof", but I will attempt to clarify that opinion.
          I said that the writing of Digimon Adventure 02 is "weak" (opinion) and backed it up with what I believed made it "weak", with evidence pulled from the actual work and various discussions over the years with the fandom.

          You wandered in here and said "Frontier is crap" and figured that you could leave the discussion at that, a situation which really isn't possible, because you could have taken the time to say some reason why you think that. Not all opinions can be backed up with evidence, but ones that deal with media possibly can, since you can pull things from the media to back up your opinion. You have an example of this with how we're discussing Dracula, by using evidence pulled from the text to show that it was confusing to read and where the problems were.

          Also, may I remind you that you said something like that in a forum that's dedicated to looking critically at written (here)/drawn (art boards) work and people give their "opinions" on them that are backed up with evidence from the written/drawn work to back it up? If you had wandered in to a person's fanfiction thread and posted the exact same post you did here there, then you would have been breaking the "no flaming" rule, the "no trolling" rule, and the "not constructive criticism" rule.

          So, yes, it would be rather necessary for you ("behoove") to back up your opinion about a work of media that you posted on a forum dedicated to posting backed-up opinions of works of media.

          I would continue discussing Digimon, but I haven't seen Frontier in years (and it will be next year before I even get a chance to think about watching it), I haven't seen all of Adventure (02) yet in the original (the dub brings up many more plot holes), and I'm more focused on something right now with a better fandom. (In conclusion: socks!)

          Quote:
          3] Bram, you fool. Who gives two characters the same name? More to the point, a name as forgettable as John? Eh?
          Yes, this. John and John running around together. This annoyed me about the book too. Van Helsing was still the best though, though that's just my fangirling of red-head smart teachers/doctors.

          Quote:
          Apparently the ending was a complete and utter anti-climax. Something about killing him in his sleep?
          If I remember correctly, that was their goal, but it wasn't achieved that way. It was still terribly anti-climatic because the ending was written from the point of view of a character who didn't even take part in the final battle. She hid behind a rock quite a distance away that she wasn't fully sure what was happening.

          Feign totally just reminded me that I need to update my LJ.
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            #12583    
          Old September 10th, 2009 (1:08 PM).
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          What is Live Journal anyway? Is it a place where you can easily share fan fics or something? (Like a cross between FF.net and Twitter?). I'm kind of surprised at myself though, that I only stick with Facebook...
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            #12584    
          Old September 10th, 2009 (1:50 PM). Edited September 10th, 2009 by Redstar.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Astinus View Post
            *Your statement in general*
            You offered the opinion that you enjoyed that season and gave reasons why, and I "wandered in" and said I didn't like it. I wasn't trying to be contrary and I didn't argue your opinion at all. I just said I didn't like it, in the same way people in real life can be in a group talking about something and someone else can say "Yeah, I don't like it." Bringing up points and reasons for that opinion isn't necessary because I'm not writing a college thesis.
              #12585    
            Old September 10th, 2009 (4:52 PM).
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              Err... how about a nice question? Haven't seen one of those in a while. Since I have moved on from my bad-karma-inducing character development, I've taken up the reigns of devloping some villains instead. Which begs a question or two:

              Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.

              Oh yes, and I want a Ralts. :C
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                #12586    
              Old September 10th, 2009 (5:13 PM).
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                Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.
                I feature Team Rocket in my main fic since Mewtwo is a major plot point and character. No characters besides Giovanni himself are included, but his role is pretty big.
                  #12587    
                Old September 10th, 2009 (5:35 PM).
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                  Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.
                  Yeah, Team Rocket is going to feature in my story, though I haven’t decided yet if there’s going to be any admins or not. If there are, there’s probably only going to be one since I don’t think I’ll have enough room for a second.
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                    #12588    
                  Old September 10th, 2009 (5:51 PM).
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                  Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.
                  In my future fic, yeah. I"m actually going to use the admins that are revealed just moments ago, considering the story will take place at Johto and I'll use some events from the games too as plot points. However, I'll also put in a few twists with both the admins and the overall plot of my story.
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                    #12589    
                  Old September 10th, 2009 (6:56 PM).
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                  JX Valentine JX Valentine is offline
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Redstar View Post
                    You offered the opinion that you enjoyed that season and gave reasons why, and I "wandered in" and said I didn't like it. I wasn't trying to be contrary and I didn't argue your opinion at all.
                    When you outright state that you thought someone's favorite (insert something here) sucks, they're going to want reasons for it because, yeah, that sort of thing just doesn't make friends, Redstar. It's like someone coming in here and saying fanfiction sucks and we're not real writers and leaving it at that. It's not about writing a college thesis. It's about the fact that, to be equally blunt, you don't really think all that much about what you're saying to people and then wonder why those people start growling at you like kicked Dobermans. You can say you do, and I'm sure on a level, you do. But still, coming in and saying someone's favorite season -- the season they thought excelled in terms of writing and whatnot -- was, in your words, "crap" (and not even "I didn't really care for it, but I can respect your opinion." or "It's just not my favorite season." but instead "I can personally attest that season four was crap.") and leaving it at that seems to me like it exercises all the prudence of sticking your hand in an alligator cage because your cell phone slid between the bars as it's ringing.

                    Sorry to state it like that. Furthermore, frankly, I'm not particularly in the mood for drama. It's just that I'd like to say I can see why Astinus would reply that way to you.

                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Giratina of Never-Turn-Back View Post
                    Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.
                    Admittedly, yes. AEM's got an excuse for abusing the Team Rocket trope because it is Team Rocket. And, well, the military and the Committee. All of them (except the Committee) have sub-bosses, naturally. Team Rocket has, well, yeah. The NDF lets me use military ranks that may or may not be accurate to any branch of military in existence.

                    MKD sort of has them in the form of political parties and the Trio, but everyone face-heel-turns and heel-face-turns so often I'm not even sure any of them can actually be called villainous.
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                      #12590    
                    Old September 10th, 2009 (7:20 PM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                      When you outright state that you thought someone's favorite (insert something here) sucks, they're going to want reasons for it because, yeah, that sort of thing just doesn't make friends, Redstar. It's like someone coming in here and saying fanfiction sucks and we're not real writers and leaving it at that. It's not about writing a college thesis. It's about the fact that, to be equally blunt, you don't really think all that much about what you're saying to people and then wonder why those people start growling at you like kicked Dobermans. You can say you do, and I'm sure on a level, you do. But still, coming in and saying someone's favorite season -- the season they thought excelled in terms of writing and whatnot -- was, in your words, "crap" (and not even "I didn't really care for it, but I can respect your opinion." or "It's just not my favorite season." but instead "I can personally attest that season four was crap.") and leaving it at that seems to me like it exercises all the prudence of sticking your hand in an alligator cage because your cell phone slid between the bars as it's ringing.
                      I understand where you're coming from, and my initial post may have been inflammatory, but it does serve as irritation when anyone suggests interest in things that are typically reviled by critics. Star Wars is just one such example, which I honestly can't understand why anyone likes. It's a crappy story, directed by a crappy director, with harmful messages and shamelessly ripped off from Dune. I can't respect anyone's opinion in liking it.

                      Digimon is a different matter, truly, but I can't say I'll enjoy a show where the only female character transforms into a a fairy wearing a pink armor-bikini.
                        #12591    
                      Old September 10th, 2009 (7:46 PM).
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                      Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.
                      Not so much a Team Noun, but there are certain groups of people that work to thwart the protagonist. Probably the closest to the traditional "Team Rocket" trope in this story is a group of elite assassins known as the Moonlight Squad. There are no mini-commanders in this group, as it consists of about twenty people. :P
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                        #12592    
                      Old September 10th, 2009 (7:52 PM).
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                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Redstar View Post
                        but it does serve as irritation when anyone suggests interest in things that are typically reviled by critics.
                        Incidentally, you happen to be in the Pokémon fandom, whose anime is often given mediocre to low ratings by various anime sites and has had one of its movies ripped apart by the Nostalgia Critic.

                        But it's interesting to see that you've basically just stated that we should just follow the reviews of critics instead of form our own opinions about anything at all. *thumbs up*

                        Seriously, though, I respect your opinion, but you've really got to respect everyone else's. Sure, you might not like it because you think it's crap. The critics might not like it because they think it's crap (although this isn't so with the Star Wars example). But people still like it. If you're going to say something's crap, you might as well phrase it in a way that doesn't sound like you're taking a long leak on someone else's thoughts.

                        And she also transformed into a badass harpy.
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                          #12593    
                        Old September 10th, 2009 (7:59 PM).
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                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                          Incidentally, you happen to be in the Pokémon fandom, whose anime is often given mediocre to low ratings by various anime sites and has had one of its movies ripped apart by the Nostalgia Critic.
                          I'm not exactly sure what the anime has to do with anything, since I haven't watched it in years. And I've never heard of the "Nostalgia Critic".

                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                          But it's interesting to see that you've basically just stated that we should just follow the reviews of critics instead of form our own opinions about anything at all. *thumbs up*
                          I didn't mean to suggest that we shouldn't form our own opinion, but needlessly declaring something badly written or filled with "plot holes" when there are none is something that should be relegated to those that have experience dealing with them. *thumbs down*

                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                          Seriously, though, I respect your opinion, but you've really got to respect everyone else's. Sure, you might not like it because you think it's crap. The critics might not like it because they think it's crap (although this isn't so with the Star Wars example). But people still like it. If you're going to say something's crap, you might as well phrase it in a way that doesn't sound like you're taking a long leak on someone else's thoughts.
                          I do respect others opinions, and I didn't say I had any distaste for Astinus' interest in the fourth season. She gave it a positive recommendation, I gave it a negative one. That's usually how it goes. (And I've yet to see a positive review for Star Wars that wasn't baseless. It's reviled by the science fiction community and writing/literature in general. George Lucas spouts Campbell, but he sure can't write Campbell)


                          Quote:
                          Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                          And she also transformed into a badass harpy.
                          Who?
                            #12594    
                          Old September 10th, 2009 (8:02 PM).
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                          Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.

                          Let's just say... One of them tries to... >.>

                          Hmmm for my history of English class, my prof has alluded to a assignment to do with the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), not that I expect people to know, but it would seem that it has been done before, does anyone know what such an assignment might entail? It would seem as though she wanted us to find a word that the OED had recently added, that is not really English... Though I am unsure.
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                            #12595    
                          Old September 10th, 2009 (8:06 PM). Edited September 10th, 2009 by JX Valentine.
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                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by Redstar View Post
                            I'm not exactly sure what the anime has to do with anything, since I haven't watched it in years. And I've never heard of the "Nostalgia Critic".
                            You just said it irritates you when someone likes something the critics don't approve of. I just gave you an example of something you're probably following (and I will have to look up IGN's review of Emerald, but I have the sneaking suspicion they didn't say it was stellar, either) that isn't approved by critics.

                            Quote:
                            I didn't mean to suggest that we shouldn't form our own opinion, but needlessly declaring something badly written or filled with "plot holes" when there are none is something that should be relegated to those that have experience dealing with them. *thumbs down*
                            So, uh, fans can't have their own opinions of subject material and should only let the critics talk about what was good or bad about something?

                            Not to mention... didn't you do the same thing to describe the fourth season? You know, said it was filled with flat characters when there really are none (according to certain arcs of that season)? Not to mention you're a student and not a professional critic yourself?

                            Quote:
                            I do respect others opinions, and I didn't say I had any distaste for Astinus' interest in the fourth season.
                            You called one of her favorite seasons crap. Your words, even. In response to her post. While you might not have said anything that was meant to be personal, you pretty much walked in, called her favorite thing crap, and walked out thinking that'd be the end of it.

                            Quote:
                            It's reviled by the science fiction community and writing/literature in general.
                            Really? Because it's got quite a massive fanbase, last I checked. Not to mention tentacles everywhere in pop culture (including other sci-fi media and things that are clearly not rip offs of it *hackcoughEragoncoughhack*). I don't really think that's called reviled right there.

                            Quote:
                            Who?
                            The same only-female character who transformed into the pink-armored fairy. She won back points, I feel.
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                              #12596    
                            Old September 10th, 2009 (8:17 PM).
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                              You just said it irritates you when someone likes something the critics don't approve of. I just gave you an example of something you're probably following (and I will have to look up IGN's review of Emerald, but I have the sneaking suspicion they didn't say it was stellar, either) that isn't approved by critics.
                              The anime is for prepubescent kids and serves as advertisement for the games. It doesn't need to have the depth of Gargoyles.

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                              So, uh, fans can't have their own opinions of subject material and should only let the critics talk about what was good or bad about something?

                              Not to mention... didn't you do the same thing to describe the fourth season?
                              No, fans can have their own opinion... But when they start throwing around terms like "Mary Sue" and "Plot Hole" and don't even know what it means, then I get annoyed. (Not saying Astinus did that)

                              [QUOTE=Valentine;5102417]I said it, yes, but I know of many others that feel the same way.

                              [QUOTE=Valentine;5102417]You called one of her favorite seasons crap. Your words, even. In response to her post.
                              I called the season crap. I didn't say her opinion was crap, nor did I say she herself was crap.

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                              Really? Because it's got quite a massive fanbase, last I checked.
                              There's a clear distinction between a visual medium and a written medium. Star Trek, for example, is almost universally applauded for its many advances in story-telling and use of science, while Star Wars is treated as a mild fantasy. The literary side of it is also pretty rabid. I've read one good Star Wars work, and it was a comic.

                              And fanbase doesn't equate to quality. The reviews, critiques, and analysis of Star Wars are pretty bad. (Though the original trilogy fares better, Lucas practically screwed himself with the prequels. All the crap he was subtle about before was shoved down our throats)

                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                              The same only-female character who transformed into the pink-armored fairy. She won back points, I feel.
                              A ninja harpy, Val. That's bonus points. (But she's still sporting a tummy shot, as well as her human form wearing a belly shirt. Previous female characters weren't so sexist)
                                #12597    
                              Old September 10th, 2009 (8:27 PM).
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                                Quote:
                                Originally Posted by Redstar View Post
                                The anime is for prepubescent kids and serves as advertisement for the games. It doesn't need to have the depth of Gargoyles.
                                I think the most-quoted problem critics have with it is the fact that it has no depth. Whatsoever.

                                Quote:
                                But when they start throwing around terms like "Mary Sue" and "Plot Hole" and don't even know what it means, then I get annoyed. (Not saying Astinus did that)
                                Wait. If you're not saying that she did that... then why are you bringing it up?

                                See, this is why I say you might want to give what you're saying a bit more thought. It's not meant to be offensive. It's just meant to say I think you're unintentionally insulting the crap out of the people whose opinions don't align with yours.

                                Quote:
                                I said it, yes, but I know of many others that feel the same way.
                                Well, sure. Frontier's not a popular season, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone thinks it's crap or should think it's crap. Moreover, it doesn't mean it should be shocking if you encounter someone who actually likes it and responds to your statement of dislike (especially if it's only "it's crap") by asking you to back it up in order to make it sound less like you're personally insulting them.

                                Quote:
                                And fanbase doesn't equate to quality.
                                While this is true, what I'm saying is that even if a small group of professionals who might not actually be active participants in the sci-fi community and are more along the lines of simply film or lit experts in general didn't like it, it doesn't mean that it's hated by the entire community. Sci-fi writers, artists, even fans still count as part of the sci-fi community, and it's still overall a positive reception by them.

                                'Course, I've also yet to actually read negative Star Wars reviews that had to do with the first three movies. No comment about the latest ones because, yeah, those I know weren't that well-received by critics or the audience in general.

                                Quote:
                                A ninja harpy, Val. That's bonus points.
                                Exactly.

                                Quote:
                                (But she's still sporting a tummy shot, as well as her human form wearing a belly shirt. Previous female characters weren't so sexist)
                                Eh, it's a shounen anime. You just have to come to expect that it's going to be sexist on some level.
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                                  #12598    
                                Old September 10th, 2009 (8:36 PM).
                                Redstar's Avatar
                                Redstar Redstar is offline
                                   
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                                  Wait. If you're not saying that she did that... then why are you bringing it up?
                                  You wanted to know why I'm irritated by this or that or whatever my brain can't process right now why I posted in the first place.

                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                                  See, this is why I say you might want to give what you're saying a bit more thought. It's not meant to be offensive. It's just meant to say I think you're unintentionally insulting the crap out of the people whose opinions don't align with yours.
                                  It's all a matter of perspective. I didn't say "Oh my god! How can you think that! I hate that season. It's crap." That could feasibly be taken as me insulting her, but really I just said I hadn't seen Adventure 02 in awhile and was going to, and on a side-note "I think Frontier is crap." That wasn't the focus of my post, just an add-on. (Everyone seems to dislike Dracula, but if I ended my post with "And I can personally vouch that I think Dracula was marvelous." would you guys think I was insulting anyone just because my opinion was contrary?)

                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by Valentine View Post
                                  'Course, I've also yet to actually read negative Star Wars reviews that had to do with the first three movies. No comment about the latest ones because, yeah, those I know weren't that well-received by critics or the audience in general.
                                  I'd be glad to message you some instances where the series overall was analyzed as pulp smut, granted they're mostly from the same guy. (But he is a prominent science fiction writer and works for NASA)
                                    #12599    
                                  Old September 10th, 2009 (8:40 PM).
                                  Feign's Avatar
                                  Feign Feign is offline
                                  Clain
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                                  It is possible to show how deep something really is... anything really (but I have a link in my sig for Pokemon and Philosophy). Heck, there is even a book out there for Family Guy and Philosophy. XD

                                  Hmmm we could chalk up some evidence as to why people were or are interested in Pokemon...

                                  I find that I enjoy the movies more though, as they sometimes have a broader view on themes such as heroism, sacrifice and innocence.
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                                    #12600    
                                  Old September 10th, 2009 (8:40 PM).
                                  txteclipse's Avatar
                                  txteclipse txteclipse is offline
                                  Peace & Goodwill
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                                  Do you have villainous teams in your stories? If you do, do they happen to have sub-bosses (or commanders/minibosses/whatever)? Bonus points if they're more than two or three characters and/or are together all the time.

                                  I have a villainous "group," but I wouldn't really call it a "team." It's comprised of a select few individuals that are trying to take over the government by staging a coup. There's one evil guy for every good governmental type, so their idea is to just kill all the higher-ups and take their places, smoothly and effectively.
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