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Old May 8th, 2008 (9:11 PM). Edited May 9th, 2008 by Anti.
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We all know standard SpecsMence. It's used quite often and hurts anything but standard special walls. Let's look at that moveset:

Salamence @ Choice Specs
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump

Just from the look of this set, you know Blissey and friends are going to wall you. I will now turn your attention to Hydro Pump. Is ask you, what is it for exactly? I turned to Smogon's analysis and I will quote what it said:

"The Salamence of choice is no longer bound to use physical attacks (yes, that's a pun on Choice Band). Salamence's oft-overlooked 110 base Special Attack now has the 140 base power Draco Meteor to work with. Since only Steel-type Pokémon resist Dragon Attacks, Flamethrower (for Skarmory, Metagross, etc.) and Hydro Pump (for Heatran, Probopass and Bastiodon) hit 99% of the Pokémon in the game with at least a 2HKO. That, in part, is why you see two direct-damage-dealing attacks of the same type and category (in this case, special) on the same Pokémon—in practice you should be using Draco Meteor primarily, in the early and middle stages of battle, then Dragon Pulse to sweep up at the end, predicting the above otherwise "trouble Pokémon" accordingly."

It clearly states that Hydro Pump is for Heatran, Bastiodon, and Probopass. Probopass and Bastiodon are never used in OUs anyways, so rule them out. Basically, Hydro Pump is for Heatran. However, you must wonder if there are better options.

At first, you can look at HP Ground, since it OHKOs Heatran and 2HKOs Empoleon, a common counter. You still lose to Blissey and friends though. Hpwever, let's have a look at Salamence's base stats:

HP - 95
Atk - 135
Def - 80
Spd - 100
SAtk - 110

SDef - 80

As we can see, SpecsMence uses Salamence's inferior attacking stat because Draco Meteor is much stronger than Dragon Claw. However, you must realize that without any Atk EVs and a neutral nature, Salamence has an impressive 306 Atk stat with a 31 Atk IV. Now let's look at Sala's movepool. All standard special walls are weak to one type: Fighting. Salamence happens to have access to Hidden Power Figthing, but that will not hurt any special wall at all. Its physical fighting move, however, is interesting.

Brick Break on a CBmence does 73% - 86% to 252HP/252Def Bold Blissey. Even without the Choice Band boost, you must think Brick Break is going to hurt Blissey a lot. The new standard for Blissey that has pooped up has been a 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef Calm Blissey, who can take special attacks way better than a bold 252/252 blissey can. If you give Salamence 120 Atk EVs (taken out of speed, which gives salamence 270 speed, which outspeeds adamant CB Heracross), it will do 46.29% - 54.46% to a Blissey like the one I just mentioned - that's a 2HKO. That's now even including the possibility of entry hazards like Spieks and SR or weather conditions.

Now we must look at other special walls, since Blissey isn't the only one. Snorlax can survive a Brick Break better than Blissey, but it doesn't have access to Ice Beam meaning Salamence will win regardless of what Snorlax does. Regice is 2HKOed by specs Fire Blast, and we should not forget its SR weakness. It is also weak to Brick Break though it can take it fairly well.

Now you might ask, what would you replace for Brick Break? It's simple really. Hydro Pump was mostly used for Heatran, but Brick Break offers the same coverage against Heatran (and Probopass and Bastiodon as well) just like Hydro Pump, so it could go over Hydro Pump without it hindering SpecsMence's effectiveness at all. It also beats up Empoleon, another common SpecsMence counter.

In short, a more effective SpecsMence than the stand set would be something along the lines of:

Salamence @ Choice Specs
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 120 Atk / 136 Spd / 252 SAtk
Mild / Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Brick Break

With this set, only pokemon that can survive two Draco Meteors will wall you (and those pokemon walled the other version anyways, so it is a step up regardless of that).

In conclusion, I think SpecsMence would be above and beyond more effective with Brick Break. It has far fewer counters and covers every single pokemon the original version does. With that, I must say one cannot deny the viability of Brick Break on Choice Specs Salamence.

EDIT: Just to give you an example of how this version of SpecsMence can help you, I'll give you one. It was down to Salamence and Machamp against the opponent's Blissey and Magnezone. Draco Meteor had been taken by blissey and so had a Fire Blast. I switched Salamence in on Maggy. My opponent knew this was SopecsMence and smartly switched to Blissey. However, Brick Break was there ready to 2HKO, which it did pull off with great success. I then Brick Breaked the Magnezone to win the fight. the funny thing is, I was quite horribly outplayed but SpecsMence saved me at the end.

In other words, if you save your surprise for the right time (which can be at various points in the game), SpecsMence can really turn things around. It's nothing revolutionary, but Brick Break definately ups Salamence's usefulness when running a Choice specs set.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (11:59 AM).
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I can see your obvious points here Anti. Hydro is pretty much for Heatran in this situation. This version does hit more things and becomes walled by less, but now it's running a lack of some speed, making it less useful as a lead IMO.

This is pretty much a MixMence with a Choice Specs. I don't know much more to say than that.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (12:27 PM).
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Also, anti, there is more pp, accuracy and it has the ability to break the rare light screen or reflect. However, ghosts can come in and force switches, which is bad with SR. Still, I do agree with Brick break over hydro pump.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (12:40 PM).
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Honestly I don't like the speed loss and the -Def or -Sp.Def. It loses viability and gets outsped by common sweepers like Lucario, Porygon-Z, Roserade, and others that can HP ice it. The Brick Break damage does not 2HKO Blissey with Leftovers.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (12:59 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Syaoran View Post
Honestly I don't like the speed loss and the -Def or -Sp.Def. It loses viability and gets outsped by common sweepers like Lucario, Porygon-Z, Roserade, and others that can HP ice it. The Brick Break damage does not 2HKO Blissey with Leftovers.
I see your point, but those sweepers can't switch in on Salamence. While your attacking opportunities are somewhat limited because of the speed drop, you can hit more things. The Def drop it really doesn't mind (especially with a mild nature, as Intimidate is a really helpful ability for Salamence).

Also, Blissey has to not switch in on SR/Spikes/Toxispikes and hardful weather cannot be in play for it to survive, not to mention it has to be at full health. Blissey can survive, but the odds are very slim.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (1:12 PM).
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Hey, you really hit on something with that, Empoleon can really annoy you with any dragon witout EQ or a fighting move, that counters it. That's the best idea to do with Salamence i have ever seen.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (3:34 PM).
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Salamence
- Draco Meteor
- dragonclaw
- Flamethrower
- Hydro Pump

try that, i like it i keep the dragon type (no resistance) and the 1.5 multi (sametype) and its not a spec attack :)
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Old May 9th, 2008 (3:38 PM).
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Dragon Claw doesn't do a whole lot to Blissey though, or really anyhting that Dragon Pulse would cover.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (3:40 PM). Edited May 9th, 2008 by Valarauca.
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Nothing does alot to a blissey...
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Old May 9th, 2008 (3:44 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowman080 View Post
Nothing does alot to a blissey...
Blissey is ridiculously easy to counter though, and Thunder Wave is great for Heracross or better yet Machamp to come in and destroy the opposing team with boosted attacks.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (3:59 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti-Pop View Post
Blissey is ridiculously easy to counter though, and Thunder Wave is great for Heracross or better yet Machamp to come in and destroy the opposing team with boosted attacks.
personally the blissey im currently raising is something like this... or will be

Blissey @ working on it
Relaxed
Ev: 508 def (kind of puts a stopper in your plan)
-Soft boil
-Aromatherapy
-psychic
-toxic

has around 500 physical def.. (well its Iv is in speed *shrugs* so it should have around 510?)

P.S. this helped my team alot, the salamence disscusion
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Old May 9th, 2008 (4:01 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowman080 View Post
personally the blissey im currently raising is something like this... or will be

Blissey @ working on it
Relaxed
Ev: 508 def (kind of puts a stopper in your plan)
-Soft boil
-Aromatherapy
-psychic
-toxic

has around 500 physical def..
P.S. this helped my team alot
If only Blissey could exceed 130 physical defense >_> Besides, the max EVs for any stat is 255.

EDIT: Heracross and Machamp would still massacre it.

Can we stay on-topic please?
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Old May 9th, 2008 (4:11 PM).
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Well Blissey has lets say a neutral nature... and gets hit first it survives

then blissey attacks with psychic... say if machokes trainer put all half of his ev's in spec def then blissey with a spec attack positive nature could do around 230 damage to machoke.. if machoke had a negative hp nature he would be gone...
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Old May 9th, 2008 (4:51 PM). Edited May 9th, 2008 by Lalapizzame.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowman080 View Post
Well Blissey has lets say a neutral nature... and gets hit first it survives

then blissey attacks with psychic... say if machokes trainer put all half of his ev's in spec def then blissey with a spec attack positive nature could do around 230 damage to machoke.. if machoke had a negative hp nature he would be gone...
No professional Blissey user has Psychic on it and there is no such thing as a "Negative HP nature".No one would use Machoke since...there's a pokemon called Machamp that's superior to Machamp in stats. that's bulkier which means a lot.Also,who puts that many Special Defense Effort Points on a Fighting type?
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Old May 9th, 2008 (5:29 PM).
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First I would like to touch on the EV spread. What warrants a 136 speed and a further investment in Attack for Bliss?

What DOES 136 speed outrun?

Neutral 252 base 85s, 81s, 77s, 75s (Heracross, Gyarados, Heatran, Smeargle)
+nature 252 base 71s and below
no speed base 105 and below

What does 252 speed outrun?

+nature 252 base 85s and below (Heracross, Gyarados, Heatran, Smeargle)
252 base 95s and below (Electivire, Lucario, PorygonZ, Moltres)

It would arguably be in your best interests to outrun Heracross, Electivire and Lucario as an offensive sweeper.

You would also have to consider the roles of Mixmence and Specsmence. Mixmence is primarily a wall-breaker, and Specsmence is a sweeper.

SpecsMence WANTS to outrun Heracross, some Electivire and Lucario, to KO, and it can come in on these sweepers quite easily.

Adding a Mild/Rash nature would further hinder Salamence abilities to switch in and deal damage. Have you looked at SpecsMence's resists? Well, here goes:

2x Fire
2x Water
4x Grass
2x Fighting
2x Bug

Immunity to Ground

The Fighting and Bug resistance, coupled with Intimidate makes Sala a good switchin into Fighters, and the ability to follow up with a Specs Boosted attack makes SpecsMence want the extra defence provided with Modest.

Then, what if you run Rash?

Salamence also has the three Fire, Water and most importantly Grass resistances. Salamence also can use these three resistances to its advantage.

If you lock Salamence into a 75 power move with no modifier at all, Salamence would suffer given the majority of Fighting resistances and neutralities in the metagame. I am inclined to say that this set is actually walled more easily than Mixmence, due to the horrid initial power of Brick Break, making Empoleon and Heatran laugh at it.

In conclusion, Hydro Pump > Brick Break.
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Old May 9th, 2008 (5:36 PM).
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I certainly see your point. I agree MixMence is more for breaking walls, but Brick Break certainly does come in handy a lot :P I agree, for a special sweeper standpoint and with speed and defenses factored in, Hydro Pump is probably more useful. Brick Break is still a good little toy to play around with :)
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Old May 10th, 2008 (1:25 PM).
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Maybe you have more coverage, but I really see many other pokemons outspeeding your Mence. Anyways Brick Breack is a good idea. This dude doesn't make a good lead, but he's a good "Mix sweeper". Maybe it'll work better with Orb.
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Old May 10th, 2008 (4:36 PM).
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Maybe you have more coverage, but I really see many other pokemons outspeeding your Mence. Anyways Brick Breack is a good idea. This dude doesn't make a good lead, but he's a good "Mix sweeper". Maybe it'll work better with Orb.
"Mixmence"

Salamence @ Life Orb
Mild/Rash
120 Attack/136 Speed/252 SpA

Brick Break
Draco Meteor
Fire Blast/Flamethrower
Dragon Claw/Crunch/Roost

Mixmence already exists as a set, and as I stated in my last post, these two have vastly different roles, and thus a Mixmence set should not be used with Specs.
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Old May 10th, 2008 (6:28 PM).
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Question.

I have always doubted Brick Break on a Mixmence set. Is its only purpose is to hit Blisey? Are there no other options?
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Old May 10th, 2008 (6:48 PM).
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ttar is all i can think of where brick break would do more damage then hydro pump. snorlax won't make much of the brick break (at best, it's a 3HKO).
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Old May 10th, 2008 (7:12 PM).
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I've been corrected so instead of this thread taking up the place of something more worthy you can go ahead and close this.
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