Proposition 8 (California) Page 3

Started by St. Anger October 31st, 2008 2:17 PM
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Prop 8

Nick

Seen 4 Weeks Ago
Posted July 28th, 2021
17,572 posts
18.6 Years
It doesn't matter religion. Chances are you have commited another sin or something against Christianity, so you would go to hell anyway.
You seem to be missing the point that some people are trying to make:

There are more religions in the world than Christianity. Therefore, how can someone be defined in a Christianity sense if they are not a Christian to begin with?

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font></i>

Age 27
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Seen February 13th, 2019
Posted October 4th, 2015
5,175 posts
17.3 Years
I am not gonna cower, I will not give a fudgein damn about my rep. I will express myself in public, with my truthful opinion: Yes

I beleive Gay marriage is wrong. I may live in Texas, but I will College in California. If Gay Marriage is not illegalized, it will be abused, thus, more conflict. So I believe and immediate stop from the government is necessary on this.

I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong. Man-kind has developed into morals that consider homosexuality wrong. As wrong a Pedophilia, Necrophilia, Zoophilia, and sometimes Polygamy.

Go ahead, rep me if I just shot you up and uped you shot. Just remember: It's either a stop now, or a stop in the future with more technology, wisdom, and conflict.
Age 30
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Ontario
Seen January 21st, 2013
Posted March 13th, 2011
981 posts
15.2 Years
I am not gonna cower, I will not give a fudgein damn about my rep. I will express myself in public, with my truthful opinion: Yes

I beleive Gay marriage is wrong. I may live in Texas, but I will College in California. If Gay Marriage is not illegalized, it will be abused, thus, more conflict. So I believe and immediate stop from the government is necessary on this.

I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong. Man-kind has developed into morals that consider homosexuality wrong. As wrong a Pedophilia, Necrophilia, Zoophilia, and sometimes Polygamy.

Go ahead, rep me if I just shot you up and uped you shot. Just remember: It's either a stop now, or a stop in the future with more technology, wisdom, and conflict.
Care to explain how you think gay marraige will be abused? It's marraige, bud... how much can you abuse it?

Spinor

<i><font color="b1373f">The Lonely Physicist</font></i>

Age 27
Male
Seen February 13th, 2019
Posted October 4th, 2015
5,175 posts
17.3 Years
With the issues going on. Not many gays are getting married.

But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side. More will get married. More Anti-Gays will be angry.

Either now, or later with cruelty.

Ivysaur

Grass dinosaur extraordinaire

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Seen 1 Day Ago
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With the issues going on. Not many gays are getting married.
And? Having rights doesn't mean you have to use them. It just means you are free to use them whenever you want.

If straight people suddenly stopped getting married, would you suggest illegalizing the straight marriage?

But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side. More will get married.
Okay, may I ask why would the government NOT be with a group of citizens who want to have their rights? Just wondering. The government is supposed to support the rights for all the citizens.

More Anti-Gays will be angry.
If you illegalize it, gays and right-supporters will be angry too. But yeah, let's ban Obama from the presidency because he'll make anti-black people angry.

Either now, or later with cruelty.
That sentence scares me o_O
Care to explain, please?

Aegis

The Savage Nymph

Age 29
Male
Canada
Seen May 20th, 2015
Posted October 30th, 2012
4,558 posts
17.3 Years
I do not hate gays. But I do not like their way of expression. Gay bars are morally wrong.
So, you're saying that every homosexual person will go to a gay bar in their life? That's like saying every straight person will go to a non-gay bar in their lifetime. Just because their out there doesn't mean that the majority goes to them. The homosexual people who go to gay bars just make up a percent of all homosexual people, there are a good many who're just like straight couples, and don't do anything "immoral" like that. There's a good many heterosexual strip clubs out there, but not all heterosexual people will go to one in their life, now will they?

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Age 30
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Ontario
Seen January 21st, 2013
Posted March 13th, 2011
981 posts
15.2 Years
But if it does not become illegalized. They will think the Government is on their side.
Uh, yeah... that's the idea. By keeping gay marraige legalized, the government is basically saying that they are on their side.

And tough luck if anti-gays get their panties in a knot. By illegalizing it, more gays/lesbians will be angry. There's no win-win solution, here. However, there is a win-win solution for the majority of the people: keep it legalized. The number of gays plus the amount of straights who are pro gay marraige is obviously more than the number of anti-gays. See what I'm getting at here?

Xaviar

I left my brain in its jar

Age 30
Male
Wisconsin
Seen March 17th, 2012
Posted August 7th, 2010
161 posts
14.6 Years
It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful.
Well, at least children raised by homosexual couples will be more open-minded than the lot of anti-gays out there...

I think denying the right to have a homosexual marriage is unconstitutional. And by the way, everyone who is using the argument of "My tax dollars are being spent on what I don't want!"... What about the single mothers filing for benefits? Not letting homosexuals marry is like forcing single mothers to get married so the government no longer has to pay for further education, etc.

txteclipse

The Last

Age 32
Riverside
Seen March 23rd, 2023
Posted November 2nd, 2016
2,322 posts
15.7 Years
Aaand I'm sucked directly back in. I never can pull off extricating myself from this type of thing. :\

So what? Whether it's a straight couple or a gay couple, you're still paying for it. *cough*discrimination*cough*
Don't be roundabout. I can take you calling me a discriminator directly. Anyways, my point was that all of the money would be going to conventional couples. If gay marriage stays legal, gay couples would absorb some of the funds that should be going to conventional couples.

So just because you're Christian means everyone else has to live by you're rules? Not everyone in the world is Christian, txt. If you're gonna try to force your religion on people, force it on everyone; not just gays/lesbians. Why don't you go run up to a couple Muslim's on the street and preach your corruption to them, too? What you're doing is discriminating, no matter what half-assed excuse you try to put over it.
Okay. If the majority of the country decides a rule should be in effect, it must go into effect. This is democracy. I've said this many times already. I'm not saying the entire country is Christian. I'm saying a good portion of it is, and we want equal representation. When the few have the majority vote, democracy has failed.

So you're basically saying that everyone else who isn't gay has sex only to reproduce? Why do you think they invented condoms? While a man and a woman are able to reproduce, it doesn't mean they want to do it everytime they engage in sexual activities.
They invented condoms because people have so little control over their sexual desires that they needed a way to stop us from having so many babies. That and it's a good business venture: lots of money is made through sales of birth control.

Anyways, people have sex to a) have babies, b) feel good, and/or c) to express love.

But wait! Couples expressing their love for one another and not wanting to have a baby is a sin!
If you are referring to married couples, I have no trouble with them using birth control. They should be the only people having sex in the first place, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously this is not the case, but...tolerance.

Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to love.
I am willing to sit here and defend what is me and mine from immoral actions that are slowly polluting the world around me. And guess what? I have plenty of male friends that I have no desire whatsoever to be sexually active with. I would consider some of them to be closer than I could ever come to a woman. Love and sex are exclusive: you keep acting like they aren't. There is such a thing as platonic love.

Don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're willing to sit here and tell another human being they're not allowed to be who they are.
And here we go again with the majority of society deciding what is acceptable. You can do whatever you want as long as the rest of society is okay with you doing so. If they feel you shouldn't be doing it, and they are in the majority, you have no right to do it anyways. See Exhibit 1: shoplifters.

On top of this, being gay is a choice. You decide what your sexual orientation is. You decide what impulses to act on. It is your responsibility. Saying otherwise is a cop-out. It would be like my shoplifter example saying they have to steal because they were born that way.

If being gay was genetic, it would have been bred out of the human race by the first few generations. Gay = no children, except in rare instances. In fact, it is such a direct reproductive deterrent that it would be foolish to say it could last this long.

and last, but not least, don't you dare call yourself a Christian when you're the one committing the most deadly of the Seven Deadly Sins: Pride.
You think I enjoy doing this? You think I enjoy watching people do things like this to themselves? Homosexuality is one of the most tragic lies Satan has ever fed into society. I take no pride in seeing what is happening to people. This isn't an ego trip for me: it's a spiritual war in which there are too many casualties. Please don't think that I'm doing this to feel good about myself or whatever. This is about me protecting myself and mine from what I regard as a destructive lie.

And I'm not without fault: I would never, ever claim that. In fact, without going into details, I have some fault in this matter, or one like it. But at least I do not hide behind pretenses of righteousness. I recognize that what I do is wrong, and I try to correct it. And if I were harming society, I would expect society to keep me from doing so, per their wishes. I can't force you to think in the same manner, but that's where tolerance comes in.

Tamaki

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Age 28
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Dream Land
Seen March 6th, 2013
Posted November 2nd, 2009
2,432 posts
15.8 Years
Being only 14, I can't vote yet... but I would definitely vote no on 8 if I could.

I'm not a lesbian, but I think gays, lesbians and bisexuals should be able to get married if they want. Why shouldn't they be able to? Marriage has to do with love, not gender.

I live in California, and almost every morning on my way to school I hear radio commercials telling people to vote yes on 8, so that we can "protect traditional marriage." Excuse me, but wtf? We're not forcing straight people to get into a gay relationship, and we're not taking away heterosexual marriage. Just because you think it's wrong, why should other people should have to suffer?

And, to all of you who think gay marriage/love is "morally wrong..." there are a lot of people here who are gay and would take a lot of offense to your posts. Some of my best friends are gay, and I don't think they'd be very happy reading this thread. And, the Bible was meant to be didactic, not literal. You guys don't need to take everything in it so seriously.

Besides, aren't we all God's children? :] Or does that only apply to straight people?
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txteclipse

The Last

Age 32
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Seen March 23rd, 2023
Posted November 2nd, 2016
2,322 posts
15.7 Years
And, the Bible was meant to be didactic, not literal. You guys don't need to take everything in it so seriously.
The Bible is very clear, in a very literal and non-strictly-didactic way, that practicing homosexuality is a sin.

Marriage has to do with love, not gender.
It has to do with both. You don't have to be the opposite gender to someone in order to love them, but you don't have to be in a sexual relationship with someone to love them either. Marriage is for opposite-sex couples to have a loving and sexual relationship the way God intended.

And, to all of you who think gay marriage/love is "morally wrong..." there are a lot of people here who are gay and would take a lot of offense to your posts.
I can't see how someone could be offended by a discussion that has thus far not erupted into anything resembling a flame war or name-calling fest. This is a fairly mature debate.

Besides, aren't we all God's children? :] Or does that only apply to straight people?
We are, but this doesn't mean we try to justify wrong. You can't simply sin with the mindset that God is going to cover for you. It doesn't work that way.

Netto Azure

Kiel

Age 30
Male
Alistel, Vainqueur
Seen November 17th, 2021
Posted September 29th, 2021
9,467 posts
15 Years
I understand the Yes argument, but I must say NO on California Proposition 8. Once we the government is given the authority to infringe ones civil rights, I'm afraid where will we stop? I'll add more reason's but I have no time.... D=

Yamikarasu

Wannabe Hasbeen

Age 29
Male
On the Battle Subway to Anville Town.
Seen October 22nd, 2012
Posted December 18th, 2011
1,199 posts
14.9 Years
On top of this, being gay is a choice. You decide what your sexual orientation is. You decide what impulses to act on. It is your responsibility. Saying otherwise is a cop-out. It would be like my shoplifter example saying they have to steal because they were born that way.

If being gay was genetic, it would have been bred out of the human race by the first few generations. Gay = no children, except in rare instances. In fact, it is such a direct reproductive deterrent that it would be foolish to say it could last this long.
Being gay is not genetic, you are right, it is hormonal. Being gay cannot be passed down from parent to child. A gay male would simply have had a higher dose of female hormones in the womb, and vice versa for a gay female. There are many different theories for how this occurs. Here is an interesting article from the Boston Globe concerning this topic.

If gay was a choice, why would anyone choose to be gay? If it goes against our brains and our bodies, like you claim, why would they? Why would they choose to belong to a group that is so discriminated against by people such as yourself?

And I find it interesting you seem to be saying that "the majority gets what the majority wants," and this is true in the sort of system we have now, but does that make it right? If the majority didn't want to allow interracial marriages, would they be right in banning them? Do you think the minority does not deserve to have their rights protected if the majority feels otherwise?

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Tamaki

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Posted November 2nd, 2009
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We are, but this doesn't mean we try to justify wrong. You can't simply sin with the mindset that God is going to cover for you. It doesn't work that way.

I know. I don't think you can, say, murder someone and get away with it, or steal from someone and get away with it. Yes, murder and theif are sins. Homosexuality? Just because a book written by men who claim to have spoken with God say it's wrong doesn't mean it is a sin.

If you don't like gays, okay. I think it's very discriminatory, but it's your belief. But just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean they should have to adhere to your beliefs.

That is all I am trying to say.
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Pear
Sun

professor plum

Age 31
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On top of this, being gay is a choice. You decide what your sexual orientation is. You decide what impulses to act on. It is your responsibility. Saying otherwise is a cop-out. It would be like my shoplifter example saying they have to steal because they were born that way.
Really? It is a choice?
Mind if I ask how you know this?

Find a sound-of-mind homosexual who claims it was a choice, then.

You're stretching your analogies, AGAIN.
A person IS born gay or straight or another variation - whether or not they realize it/come to terms with it is a whole different story.

If gay marriage stays legal, gay couples would absorb some of the funds that should be going to conventional couples.
What does that matter?

They invented condoms because people have so little control over their sexual desires that they needed a way to stop us from having so many babies. That and it's a good business venture: lots of money is made through sales of birth control.

Anyways, people have sex to a) have babies, b) feel good, and/or c) to express love.
However, condoms are also used to try to help prevent other things, such as the spreading of a few diseases.
Plus doesn't the Bible say something about only having sex to reproduce? D:
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Shiny

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The Bible is very clear, in a very literal and non-strictly-didactic way, that practicing homosexuality is a sin.
You make homosexuality sound so cold

AssonantalZ

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Posted November 7th, 2008
4 posts
14.6 Years
I find it funny how in modern times, people are quick to judge the ethics of same-sex marriage, yet no one addresses any of the other marital issues that might be seen as unholy in the eyes of the Christian Bible. For example...polygamy. I think even txteclipse would agree with me that polygamy, for one, violates the sanctity of marriage between ONE man and ONE woman. On top of that, polygamy acts as a far superior carrier of STI's than homosexuality with frequent and diverse partners. Let alone the implications of our tax dollars.

Secondly, interreligious couples. Jewish people marrying Christians. Christians marrying Muslims, etc. How does that fit into the sacred plan of the Bible? To marry one with religious viewpoints differing from your own? The Christians have a long history of being religiously intolerant of other people... The Crusades. The Spanish Inquisition. Even modern times where it could be speculated that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are President Bush's ways of lashing out on the Islamic people. Yet, on a daily basis, men and women of differing religions unite under some god anyway.

Finally, the actual sanctity of modern-day marriage. Same-sex couples would not be violating anything that straight couples have not already made infamous throughout the course of history. Marriages under a justice of the peace, for example. Is there really anything holy about getting married before a presiding judge? Or eloping. I think I can safely say there is nothing sacred to the context of an eloping couple. To say that same-sex marriage would be violating the sacred words of the Bible seems a bit hypocritical when more and more non-worshippers marry under local officials each year. If we are going to be so critical of people who undermine the ideals of the Bible, then we should be sure to be critical of ALL people if we are going to make the Bible our basis for state law. And I am certainly not condoning that.

I personally have nothing against gay marriage. I feel the intimate love between two human beings in itself is sacred and should not be something that is censored "for the sake of our youth." It is no different in terms of a child's upbringing than raising a Caucasian child with a group of a different cultural background. It is merely a new experience in life that the child is allowed to have in order to identify with him or herself even better. Be it with a different culture, a different religion, or a different sexual orientation.

In the end, I feel it's just a matter of what side you speak for. The legal or the religious. If it's the legal side (which, frankly, has no right delving into religious affairs based on the very foundation of this country's ideals, "separation of church and state") then be sure to include the other issues such as polygamy. If it's for the religious side, then address the other problems as well...justice of the peace, eloping, etc.
Age 32
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Posted October 28th, 2010
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If people feel they should have the right to marry others of the same sex, I'll tolerate it as long as a) this is the majority vote and b) people that perform marriage ceremonies are not forced to perform said ceremonies. This is how democracy functions.

I'm voting yes, anyways. I consider gay marriage to be unethical. On top of that, gay couples would take benefits that are funded by my tax money which would normally be reserved for traditional couples.

Finally, this thread should be locked. There's no way in heck it's going to stay peaceful for long.
Sorry I didn;t realise it was 1820 still. Speaking of which, don't you have some jewish people to blame for your life problems right about now? Maybe after that we could enslave some Africans and force them to work for us, then possibly bomb London a few times and try and conquer Europe?

You absolute Bigot. Hardly any of your tax goes on married couples anyway, it mostly goes on War, politicians salaries and health care. Grow up.

revelp8

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Posted April 7th, 2012
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ok first off, you guys need to simmer down. everyone is getting heated up just because of the stance they have.

Im voting no as far as the thread is concerned.

as far as the myths go about gays and marriage are completely untrue. there is just as much chance of receiving an STD man X woman. its all about being SAFE and using condoms etc. etc.

as far as the gay bars go, that's completely UNCALLED for. im straight, so that must mean i have a horrible time in gay bars. WRONG! but thats just me though correct? if you went in one, and had a horrible time just being in there, that's understandable. to tell you the truth, i've had more fun in gay bars than straight ones. but that has NOTHING to do with gay marriage in the first place, so why does that even come up in debate? i sense a little hatred...

[sarcasm]when two people love each other, is that NOT sacred? oh, i forgot to put which gender in there. sorry [/sarcasm]

Times are changing regardless people. firstly, it was interracials who couldn't get married back then. now its the same gender. whats next? are we, as a society going to stop each other from our own rights?
Age 32
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Seen May 16th, 2011
Posted October 28th, 2010
5,058 posts
18.4 Years
I think that gay marriage is wrong. That was my point. Note the bit about shoplifting if those examples aren't cutting it for you.

And it may, in fact probably will, be harmful to allow gay marriage, at least in my eyes. I do not want my children brought up in schools where teachers can take them on field trips to lesbian weddings, or to let teachers be able to teach them in sex ed that being gay is okay. For me, that would be like allowing teachers to tell kids to shoplift. It is morally unacceptable.



It is a holy union between a man and a woman, no matter how that definition has been twisted thus far.



Why did you link to my visitor page?

Anyways, I am a Christian, and I am sure that you are well aware that my religion considers homosexuality to be a sin. This is really all the explanation I need, but it's not all you'll get, as I have others.

First, homosexuality causes physical harm. I probably don't need to go too in-depth here. It can spread STD's as well, which is made worse by the fact that it is not a viable form of procreation: it is an unnecessary method to spread such diseases. It can also cause sexual confusion in those exposed to it at a young or relatively young age, which can also be harmful. It can lead to depression, feelings of low self-worth or not belonging, and the desire to get cosmetic surgeries such as sex changes, which aside from being unnecessary always carry the risk of infection, disease, and all of the other complications normally associated with surgery.
Are you actually mentally inept? A STI doesn't pick and choose it's victims based on sexual orientation.

You do realise 56% of aids suffers are heterosexual don't you?

I Laugh at your Misfortune!

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Seen August 1st, 2016
Posted August 22nd, 2011
2,629 posts
14.9 Years
Sorry I didn;t realise it was 1820 still. Speaking of which, don't you have some jewish people to blame for your life problems right about now? Maybe after that we could enslave some Africans and force them to work for us, then possibly bomb London a few times and try and conquer Europe?
Sorry, I just found that hilarious, though I agree with you completely.

I just want to say - If two people are in love and want to marry, why should anyone have the right to stop them? Don't try and use the shoplifter comparison, because these two people getting married is not going to directly affect anyone else is it? If this is a crime (which I don't think it is), its a victimless crime, so really, what's the problem?

Just my two cents, though it doesn't really matter what I think, seeing as I'm 14 and in the UK :D

Venia Silente

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Hey people, calm down!

What happened here? I read Neko Hima's post last time, and two hours later they are already calling each other names and "stupid" or "inept". Didn't txteclipse said a couple of hours ago we were not going into flame wars?

OK, so coming on topic, here's my opinion.

If I had the ability to vote, which I don't, I would vote Yes on P-8. Not because I have something against gays (I don't; I just happen to not have met enough of them yet) but rather because as with all legalese, when rushed by irrational religious fears, they tend to come up very, very, very wrong, and cause more harm than good. If we hold on gay marriage for a while until we (not we, but our legislators) can understand the consequences and can decide what are we really abiding by, then by all means, yes to gay marriage. But until that happens, it's better to study the complex reactions such a dictinary combinatin will have in society. After all, law exists not to prevent new situations, but to regulate their behavious and effects once they become common enough.

If we say No to P-8 now, and five years later things happen to go very, very, very, very wrong again, it will be too late, the genie will be already out of the bottle, as there will be married gay couples. We may know better, but our legislator don't, they are not intelligent enough, so we have to wait for them to figure things out. It is unfortunate, but those are the consequences when mankind as a whole forsakes millenia of gained knowledge that come in the form of common sense and rely instead on a bunch of rules written only to temporarily accomodate those who wrote them to the eyes of the populace: law (mostly law), religion, science, the list goes on.
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