your argument has some thruths, however, comparing having a hard life and dying, well, I'd choose the hard life,
Your opinion doesn't hold the same for others. Kids in orphanages are quite prone to depression. They often think that they're at an orphanage because their parents don't want to have anything to do with them. Sometimes they feel that the world would be better off without them. If you want I could pull out a number of news reports about children who have committed or attempted suicide in adoption centers.
I'm all for birth control(morning after pill, contraceptives, condoms, that kind of thing,
What you don't get that condoms, contraceptive pills, etcetera don't work some of the time. People take pills or use condoms and just get on with their lives. By the time that the woman realises that she's pregnant it'll be too late and abortion will be the only remaining option.
which is different from killing something which already is alive,
That depends entirely on what your definition of life is. Why kill bugs, worms and different animals everyday. We eat animals. What makes their lives less important than humans? What gives us the right to take away their lives?
Nothing is ever black and white.
maybe it's "parasitic" but will become a person in little time, remember that.
That is irrelevant. A foetus is not a person. I may become a person eventually but in the current state than it is not it cannot be defined as a human being.
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Humans are humans from conception. You don't "turn into a human" at a certain age. The second sperm meets egg and fertilization occurs, you have a unique person with their own human, not parasite, DNA.
Humans are humans from conception. You don't "turn into a human" at a certain age. The second sperm meets egg and fertilization occurs, you have a unique person with their own human, not parasite, DNA.
Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.
Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion?
someday, someone might just best me
but it won't be today, and it won't be you cosmo | justinguitar
Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.
Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion.
your arm will never develop into a human being, and yes, orphanages can be very hard on the kids there, but do you know what is worse? dying before you are even born
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I agree with both. If I state my reasons, then a flame war is certainly on its way. So I'll just say that I'm someone who would rather 'die' (or 'kill', whatever) than suffer or make others suffer due to that. And this counts to both euthanasia and abortion.
And to the poster above, you give 'life' too much credit.
Foetus' cannot be called fully human. They don't even display all the seven signs of life in the first two trimesters after conception.
Okay, look at this analogy. I am cutting of my arm. What makes it different from abortion?
Cutting off your arm doesn't kill you (unless you bleed to death, of course). And a fetus isn't "fully" human? You're either a human or you're not. And the so-called seven signs of life are a joke. Are children not alive because they're too young to reproduce? Are people in a persistent vegetative state or coma dead because they can't move? Are older people dead because they aren't growing anymore?
Cutting off your arm doesn't kill you (unless you bleed to death, of course). And a fetus isn't "fully" human? You're either a human or you're not. And the so-called seven signs of life are a joke. Are children not alive because they're too young to reproduce? Are people in a persistent vegetative state or coma dead because they can't move? Are older people dead because they aren't growing anymore?
Ok.. No.
The seven signs of life are JOKE? I don't freakin' think so! Let's go through the list, shall we?
1. Organized and complex body? Yes.
2. Need energy to stay alive (metabolism)? Yes.
3. Growth and reproduction (DNA)? Yes. (Your interpretation of "reproduction" is too narrow. Your DNA is constantly reproducing, so that counts. Everyone is constantly growing.)
4. Respond to stimulus? Yes.
5. Homeostasis (internal environment regulated)? Yes.
6. Evolve? Yes.
7. Ecological interactions? Yes.
Also, movement doesn't constitute life. By your reasoning, a tree is not alive because it can't move itself.
Technically, a fetus IS life, But is it human? Let's through the list, shall we?
1. The ability to reason? No.
A fetus is alive, but it isn't human. Not until it has the ability to reason. And that isn't until some trimester.
Oh and I care deeply about the youth in Asia /joke. But seriously, if a pet has cancer or is suffering beyond reason, they should be put down. I mean, do you want to let the one you love suffer because of your greedy beliefs?
Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two equals four. If that is granted all else will follow.
Euthenasia - when the person that wants it/asks for it. I don't think it's right for someone to do it without the patient's consent.
Abortion - Well, if you were raped, would you want to rear up that child knowing that 1) they will never see their father and 2) the memory of the rape lingering on in the existance of the child?
I know it sounds harsh, but rather have the child not live at all than live a painful life knowing he/she was the result of rape. Also, the same for someone who cannot support a child.
Slightly off topic but I thought I'd get this out now:
The horror of rape is highly undermined on the internet. I thought I'd point that out to you all making rape jokes. It's not funny, it's a very serious matter - it's a sexual attack. Just as you wouldn't joke about someone stabbing someone 20 times, don't joke about rape.
The seven signs of life are JOKE? I don't freakin' think so! Let's go through the list, shall we?
1. Organized and complex body? Yes.
2. Need energy to stay alive (metabolism)? Yes.
3. Growth and reproduction (DNA)? Yes. (Your interpretation of "reproduction" is too narrow. Your DNA is constantly reproducing, so that counts. Everyone is constantly growing.)
4. Respond to stimulus? Yes.
5. Homeostasis (internal environment regulated)? Yes.
6. Evolve? Yes.
7. Ecological interactions? Yes.
Also, movement doesn't constitute life. By your reasoning, a tree is not alive because it can't move itself.
Technically, a fetus IS life, But is it human? Let's through the list, shall we?
1. The ability to reason? No.
A fetus is alive, but it isn't human. Not until it has the ability to reason. And that isn't until some trimester.
Oh and I care deeply about the youth in Asia /joke. But seriously, if a pet has cancer or is suffering beyond reason, they should be put down. I mean, do you want to let the one you love suffer because of your greedy beliefs?
I'll admit that the source I first found/relied on for the seven laws of life was inaccurate. Your definitions only work in my favor, though. You just showed that a fetus (and zygote, etc.) is alive, and it's simple to see that something is a human if it's alive and has a human set of DNA.
As for your assertion that a human needs to be able to reason to be a human, that's fully an opinion. It's also discrimination. It would be like me saying all disabled people aren't humans. Personhood isn't determined by ability.
I'll admit that the source I first found/relied on for the seven laws of life was inaccurate. Your definitions only work in my favor, though. You just showed that a fetus (and zygote, etc.) is alive, and it's simple to see that something is a human if it's alive and has a human set of DNA.
As for your assertion that a human needs to be able to reason to be a human, that's fully an opinion. It's also discrimination. It would be like me saying all disabled people aren't humans. Personhood isn't determined by ability.
So, when you put a dog down that's evil or something?
Hmm... I hate this crap where the line is so thin...
Anyways, people who are disabled are capable of reason, unlike a fetus. A fetus does not have a fully developed brain, and until that brain is developed it cannot possibly have potential for thought. That was rather discrimatory on your part, saying that disabled people were not capable of reason.
For God's sake, ducks are capable of logical reasoning. So if something is not capable of reason, then at that time, it is less advanced than a duck. And how many ducks are killed a year?
Besides, considering the population issue, it isn't as "evil" as one may think to use a bit of birth control. And, being male, you would not understand the hardship of the rape of a female, because a dude can screw as many people as he wants without having to really regret it (with the exception of STDs but that's a different matter), but a woman has to live with that fetus, growing in their body, for 9 months. Basically, a horrific experience is literally growing on the inside of them for 9 months. Do you have any kind of idea what that may do to someone's psyche?
And you can tell me to go straight to hell - I already know I'm going *wink*
Sidenote: I have not been raped, but I know someone personally who has. It is not something to take lightly.
I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?
DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.
"I want to tear myself from this place, from this reality, rise up like a cloud and float away, melt into this humid summer night and dissolve somewhere far, over the hills. But I am here, my legs blocks of concrete, my lungs empty of air, my throat burning. There will be no floating away."
— Khaled Hosseini
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whoever disabled my signature:
my signature is not even close to 300px tall.
i dont understand why it was disabled.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
So, when you put a dog down that's evil or something?
I'm not sure how this is relevant. Extrapolate, please.
That was rather discrimatory on your part, saying that disabled people were not capable of reason.
Wow. I never said that. I stated that disabled people are less able than those that aren't. And I was actually referring to physical ability, if that was ambiguous.
For God's sake, ducks are capable of logical reasoning. So if something is not capable of reason, then at that time, it is less advanced than a duck. And how many ducks are killed a year?
Gorillas are stronger than humans. By your logic, humans < gorillas. Again, personhood is not defined by ability.
Besides, considering the population issue, it isn't as "evil" as one may think to use a bit of birth control.
You enjoy making things up, it seems. Did I say I'm against birth control? No. If I get married, I plan to use a condom until my wife and I are ready to have kids, pending us deciding to have any at all. I am against things like the morning after pill which kill zyogtes, but I consider that an abortificant anyways.
As for rape, yes, it's horrible. It's one of the worst crimes imaginable. People that commit it should be locked up for life, as far as I'm concerned. But the child should not have to die for the crime of the father. And I'm not being insensitive to the mother: she should get free counseling and medical services, as well as the ability to put the child up for adoption. And her friends, family, and community should draw together to support her, but that's not something I can control. The consequences of rape are already bad: let's please not add the death of an innocent child to the list.
And you can tell me to go straight to hell - I already know I'm going *wink*
I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?
DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.
Just because a LOT of our DNA is exactly the same as some animals, that doesn't make us animals. As you can see,
How do you define human DNA? "DNA usually occurs as linear chromosomes in eukaryotes, and circular chromosomes in prokaryotes. The set of chromosomes in a cell makes up its genome; the human genome has approximately 3 billion base pairs of DNA arranged into 46 chromosomes."
What about the people who have chromosomal disorders? They're no different than you and I, except that they'll probably die early and such. Our DNA is [I forgot the exact number, but I know it's really high]% exactly like a mouse, but do I have whiskers and a tail and am I really small? No. That tiny % of difference in DNA makes us what we are.
DNA is not junk. Where do you get that from? Seriously, you could just go inside one of your chromosomes, switch around a few base pairs, and die in seconds.
Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two equals four. If that is granted all else will follow.
I don't know about this "human set of DNA" assertion.
How do you define "human" DNA? Every single organism in the world has some part of the DNA in humans.
What about people who have chromosomal disorders (Trisomy 21, Kleinfelter's, Turner's, etc.) who have extra chromosomes?
What if we infected every cell of an animal with human DNA? It would die. Would that count as having killed a human?
DNA is junk, imho. They're nothing but acids mixed into fun shapes.
I'm taking it that you've never even studied genetics for more than 3 minutes. DNA is not just junk, it's a code for life, similar to a programming system.
Wow. I never said that. I did state that disabled people are less physically able than those that aren't.
Hmm... then I must have misenterpretated something.
Gorillas are stronger than humans. By your logic, humans < gorillas. Again, personhood is not defined by ability.
Well, what exactly makes humans better than any particular species? We're still fighting to survive, even if we use intellegence rather than our sheer strength to do it.
And that's not the point I was making. I was saying if we shoot ducks, which are capable of logical reason, then why is it that we can't kill fetuses, which are not?
You enjoy making things up, it seems. Did I say I'm against birth control? No. If I get married, I plan to use a condom until my wife and I are ready to have kids, pending us deciding to have any at all. I am against things like the morning after pill which kill zyogtes, but I consider that an abortificant anyways.
I'm not necessarily talking about you all the time *eye roll* I only mentioned you to point out that rape effects a woman more than a man. I guess I should clarify more often.
As for rape, yes, it's horrible. It's one of the worst crimes imaginable. People that commit it should be locked up for life, as far as I'm concerned. But the child should not have to die for the crime of the father. And I'm not being insensitive to the mother: she should get free counseling and medical services, as well as the ability to put the child up for adoption. And her friends, family, and community should draw together to support her, but that's not something I can control. The consequences of rape are already bad: let's please not add the death of an innocent child to the list.
But should an innocent child have to live with the blight of being the result of rape their entire life? I sure in hell wouldn't. The child would find out. There wouldn't be an escape from it.
Also, based on your logic, the government should also prevent people from using medication or drink coffee, as the contents of those and similar things affect the condition of one's ovaries/sex organs.
I don't think that the government should have the right to control whether or not we are allowed to have abortions. We should have the freedom to make our own decisions to whether or not we can abort a child. Whether or not you think abortion is wrong, both sides will win because there is a decision on the parent's part.
My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?
And the last part was a joke. Most people would tell me to go to hell after a rant like that XD
By the way, to all of those who are making their opinions on their religious beliefs solely, realize this - not everyone is the same dang religion as you. So keep your mouth shut unless you have some non-religious evidence to support your point.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?
By the way, to all of those who are making their opinions on their religious beliefs solely, realize this - not everyone is the same dang religion as you. So keep your mouth shut unless you have some non-religious evidence to support your point.
Quoted. For. Truth.
With my knowledge and your linguistic prowess, we could rule the world!
Freedom is the freedom to say two plus two equals four. If that is granted all else will follow.
Excuse me, but I would like to stop the freaking fight that is happening here. :|
A fetus is alive even before fertilization. Remember sex cells are regular cells with half of the regular chromosones. Those cells, are not human yet.
Fertilization is like any other sort of sexual reproduction. Exactly like a plant. A plant produces seeds, but they are not plants yet because they do not process photosynthesis like real plants and the embryo has to live off the nutrients packed inside the seed.
Just like a human fetus. The fetus is not human because it is not yet its own independent being. It has to develop inside the mother and get nutrients from her. Once it is at the point were a birth would not be premature, then in my eyes I would consider it human now.
Also, I don't agree with any type of death. Abortion only for rapes or life threats to the mother.
Just like a human fetus. The fetus is not human because it is not yet its own independent being. It has to develop inside the mother and get nutrients from her. Once it is at the point were a birth would not be premature, then in my eyes I would consider it human now.
True, but isn't a child usually aborted around 10 months? That's way more than just premature.
Just because a LOT of our DNA is exactly the same as some animals, that doesn't make us animals. As you can see,
How do you define human DNA? "DNA usually occurs as linear chromosomes in eukaryotes, and circular chromosomes in prokaryotes. The set of chromosomes in a cell makes up its genome; the human genome has approximately 3 billion base pairs of DNA arranged into 46 chromosomes."
What about the people who have chromosomal disorders? They're no different than you and I, except that they'll probably die early and such. Our DNA is [I forgot the exact number, but I know it's really high]% exactly like a mouse, but do I have whiskers and a tail and am I really small? No. That tiny % of difference in DNA makes us what we are.
DNA is not junk. Where do you get that from? Seriously, you could just go inside one of your chromosomes, switch around a few base pairs, and die in seconds.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
I'm taking it that you've never even studied genetics for more than 3 minutes. DNA is not just junk, it's a code for life, similar to a programming system.
I meant DNA was junk in that when it all comes down to it, it's just a base, a sugar, and a phosphate. The same DNA in every organism codes for the same proteins; we use vastly the same molecules to sustain ourselves.
In retrospect, I wasn't really being clear at all.
Anyway, in regard to the genome comment - that is completely irrelevant because every human has a different genome and if we define "human" as having the human genome, then everyone is a different being.
edit2 Oh, and if you really want to be technical, DNA isn't a code for life itself. It's the template to make the code to make the parts of an organism that give it awareness and therefore life.
Yes, sure DNA makes the human, but the human defines the DNA (as human, as opposed to as rat). Anyway, my point was that txteclipse's definition of humans as "alive and has a human set of DNA" is a bit faulty -- with this idea, humans are human if they are alive and they are human. And, uh, that's a given.
edit What if you knew the baby was going to die or become terminally crippled once it came out of you anyway?
"I want to tear myself from this place, from this reality, rise up like a cloud and float away, melt into this humid summer night and dissolve somewhere far, over the hills. But I am here, my legs blocks of concrete, my lungs empty of air, my throat burning. There will be no floating away."
— Khaled Hosseini
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whoever disabled my signature:
my signature is not even close to 300px tall.
i dont understand why it was disabled.
Excuse me, but I would like to stop the freaking fight that is happening here. :|
Believe me, this is refreshingly tame compared to some of the other sites I belong to. I wish everyone were more like the people here.
Well, what exactly makes humans better than any particular species? We're still fighting to survive, even if we use intellegence rather than our sheer strength to do it.
And that's not the point I was making. I was saying if we shoot ducks, which are capable of logical reason, then why is it that we can't kill fetuses, which are not?
If humans aren't better than any other species, and both ducks and humans are capable of logical reason, then why can't we shoot humans?
But should an innocent child have to live with the blight of being the result of rape their entire life? I sure in hell wouldn't. The child would find out. There wouldn't be an escape from it.
How would you know if the child was willing to live with it if you killed them?
Also, based on your logic, the government should also prevent people from using medication or drink coffee, as the contents of those and similar things affect the condition of one's ovaries/sex organs.
Not sure about the coffee causing sexual difficulties part, but I believe it is required for problematic drugs to say "do not take if you are pregnant" and such.
My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?
Smokers are pretty much only affecting themselves when they smoke, same with drinkers (if laws are followed). Abortion affects (and outright kills) a person that is not you, without their consent.
And this does affect me, quite badly. Do you understand how it feels to believe that your country condones murder? It's sickening, distressing, angering, and depressing, all at the same time. It goes against everything that I thought America stood for.
EDIT:
with this idea, humans are human if they are alive and they are human. And, uh, that's a given.
Actually, I said something is "a" human if it is alive and it has human DNA. One word changes the whole meaning.
If humans aren't better than any other species, and both ducks and humans are capable of logical reason, then why can't we shoot humans?
We're not better in evolutionary terms. Sure, we're smart, but that doesn't nessecarily make us better. We're better than everything we killed off.
And ducks don't go off killing eachother, unlike some humans.
How would you know if the child was willing to live with it if you killed them?
*COUGH*empathy*COUGH*
Not sure about the coffee causing sexual difficulties part, but I believe it is required for problematic drugs to say "do not take if you are pregnant" and such.
Actually, anything you put in your system affects your sexual organs, like every other part of your body, for the better or for the worse.
Should the government control our entire diet to ensure the health of our organs? Sounds nice on paper, until, woah! That sounds an awful lot like communism.
Smokers are pretty much only affecting themselves when they smoke, same with drinkers (if laws are followed). Abortion affects (and outright kills) a person that is not you, without their consent.
Well, hate to break it to you, but how exactly is a fetus going to have an opinion on the matter, let alone give its consent?
And this does affect me, quite badly. Do you understand how it feels to believe that your country condones murder? It's sickening, distressing, angering, and depressing, all at the same time. It goes against everything that I thought America stood for.
How can it be murder? It's not a fully developed human being! Honestly, it doesn't make everyone sick, and the government should give people a choice! If it makes you sick, that's fine. But if I (and other pro-choice women) don't have a choice, that isn't right!
As I said before, do you think the government should regulate what you do with your penis? Or your testes? Why should the government regulate what I do with my uterus?
A side point:
I'd like to point out right now that I am not a rampant sex machine; before having sex I would think very thoroughly before having sex with someone for a child, and I would most likely not have an abortion. However, if I, for some reason, came under the circumstances that I could not support my child, I would rather have the child aborted rather than live a miserable life.
And I'm sorry if I sound inhuman to you pro-lifers. It's a thin line to cross.
What kind of society are we when we celebrate the weak and help them thrive?
A great example is of a disorder I totally forgot the name of. Before there were treatments for it, all of the people afflicted with it would die during their childhood, thus effectively removing the disorder from their gene pool. The disorder would've eventually become so rare, that when it did pop up, it would be a big event. But now that there's treatment for it, those afflicted are now able to live to about 30, having been able to have gotten married and had a child, possibly passing it on. Now, there's (percentage-wise) a LOT more cases of the disorder.
You mean an indication of a successful society is one that kills the unborn. Wow, that's so amazing.
So you think that they would have wanted to have been aborted? You think they do not want to live? Ask them, ask them if they would prefer death.
What people don't get is that adoption isn't like in those old Disney classics where you get whisked away to some home with a loving family and live happily ever after. Most adoption centers are packed with unwanted children. Living conditions are overall poor; most children don't even get an education. In America especially, children who are non-white or unhealthy rarely get adopted and they have to spend the rest of their life in misery.
Then there's overpopulation. We already have six billion people in our planet and that number is increasing by millions every month. Birth control is becoming a necessity; an abnormaly large population is a liability for a countries economy and shoving children into adoption centers isn't going to change anything.
A common pro-life argument is that the person might become famous, become a genius, cure AIDs or something. But these people don't understand that the child has the same chance of becoming the next Hitler or Stalin or whatever. Imagine how much bloodshed could have been prevented if Hitler's mother decided to abort him.
What I don't get is why people equate the parasitic 'life' of a foetus to a living breathing human being.
I am also for Euthanasia. If a person wants to die with dignity instead of meeting his end as the victim of some horrible disease then I believe he or she has every right too. But I don't believe that the decision should be made hastily. The person should consult with doctors and his/her family members before deciding.
You're over exaggerating as well, claiming that orphanages are some terrible nightmare.
But if the kids are depressed, they should be helped. Counselors are everywhere, and they live together with people in the same situation as them.
And no, killing them does not count as help.
Overpopulation, another often repeated pro-abortion argument. It could stand in poor countries where resources aren't available, but if 20% of the world has control of 80% of the resources (e.g. Developed countries), I think we'll be fine.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Plus who cares what they do with their life, just so long as they have been given that chance to live.
I do get why you folks supporting abortion use words such as "parasitic", "clump of cells" and so on in your arguments - you all try to deny what the unborn child really is: a living human.
Dignity in death. What is that exactly? All I can think of is one without pain. And this isn't last century.
Your opinion doesn't hold the same for others. Kids in orphanages are quite prone to depression. They often think that they're at an orphanage because their parents don't want to have anything to do with them. Sometimes they feel that the world would be better off without them. If you want I could pull out a number of news reports about children who have committed or attempted suicide in adoption centers.
What you don't get that condoms, contraceptive pills, etcetera don't work some of the time. People take pills or use condoms and just get on with their lives. By the time that the woman realises that she's pregnant it'll be too late and abortion will be the only remaining option.
That depends entirely on what your definition of life is. Why kill bugs, worms and different animals everyday. We eat animals. What makes their lives less important than humans? What gives us the right to take away their lives?
Nothing is ever black and white.
That is irrelevant. A foetus is not a person. I may become a person eventually but in the current state than it is not it cannot be defined as a human being.
Is anything being done about their depression? Besides aborting them as a preventative measure?
Abortion shouldn't be an option. When you have sex, babies are made. If you were unable to prevent that, whether it be just bad luck or lack of experience in using contraceptives, it's your mistake. Not the child's.
Cause I'm a human too - I empathise with people better than I do with animals. And your argument is irrelevant if you're all for killing babies and old people.
You just say that to justify your support of abortion.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
Great post, Penguin.
Euthenasia - when the person that wants it/asks for it. I don't think it's right for someone to do it without the patient's consent.
Abortion - Well, if you were raped, would you want to rear up that child knowing that 1) they will never see their father and 2) the memory of the rape lingering on in the existance of the child?
I know it sounds harsh, but rather have the child not live at all than live a painful life knowing he/she was the result of rape. Also, the same for someone who cannot support a child.
Slightly off topic but I thought I'd get this out now:
The horror of rape is highly undermined on the internet. I thought I'd point that out to you all making rape jokes. It's not funny, it's a very serious matter - it's a sexual attack. Just as you wouldn't joke about someone stabbing someone 20 times, don't joke about rape.
People will do it without the consent of the patient. Trust me, it's already being done in Holland.
Would you want the mother to go through post abortion syndrome? Killing anything isn't an easy thing, including an unborn child. Not everyone has an easy life, but they shouldn't be denied that life because of it's difficulties.
People make jokes so they can deal with it.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
So, when you put a dog down that's evil or something?
Hmm... I hate this crap where the line is so thin...
Anyways, people who are disabled are capable of reason, unlike a fetus. A fetus does not have a fully developed brain, and until that brain is developed it cannot possibly have potential for thought. That was rather discrimatory on your part, saying that disabled people were not capable of reason.
For God's sake, ducks are capable of logical reasoning. So if something is not capable of reason, then at that time, it is less advanced than a duck. And how many ducks are killed a year?
Besides, considering the population issue, it isn't as "evil" as one may think to use a bit of birth control. And, being male, you would not understand the hardship of the rape of a female, because a dude can screw as many people as he wants without having to really regret it (with the exception of STDs but that's a different matter), but a woman has to live with that fetus, growing in their body, for 9 months. Basically, a horrific experience is literally growing on the inside of them for 9 months. Do you have any kind of idea what that may do to someone's psyche?
And you can tell me to go straight to hell - I already know I'm going *wink*
Sidenote: I have not been raped, but I know someone personally who has. It is not something to take lightly.
An unborn child has emotions, it can feel pain.
You haven't been raped either, yet you claim to know how bad it is just because you're a woman? Get out, males can show empathy too. Did you know that abortion has traumatised many a woman? I don't think that after rape they need to deal with that.
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
I'm taking it that you've never even studied genetics for more than 3 minutes. DNA is not just junk, it's a code for life, similar to a programming system.
Hmm... then I must have misenterpretated something.
Well, what exactly makes humans better than any particular species? We're still fighting to survive, even if we use intellegence rather than our sheer strength to do it.
And that's not the point I was making. I was saying if we shoot ducks, which are capable of logical reason, then why is it that we can't kill fetuses, which are not?
I'm not necessarily talking about you all the time *eye roll* I only mentioned you to point out that rape effects a woman more than a man. I guess I should clarify more often.
But should an innocent child have to live with the blight of being the result of rape their entire life? I sure in hell wouldn't. The child would find out. There wouldn't be an escape from it.
Also, based on your logic, the government should also prevent people from using medication or drink coffee, as the contents of those and similar things affect the condition of one's ovaries/sex organs.
I don't think that the government should have the right to control whether or not we are allowed to have abortions. We should have the freedom to make our own decisions to whether or not we can abort a child. Whether or not you think abortion is wrong, both sides will win because there is a decision on the parent's part.
My ovaries are mine and mine solely, I think that I should be allowed to decide what to do with their contents, just like what a first time smoker decides to do with their lungs or a first time boozer decides to do with their liver. It may look bad to you, but it's my decision, and to be honest, it's not actually affecting you in any way, so why complain?
And the last part was a joke. Most people would tell me to go to hell after a rant like that XD
By the way, to all of those who are making their opinions on their religious beliefs solely, realize this - not everyone is the same dang religion as you. So keep your mouth shut unless you have some non-religious evidence to support your point.
We fight each other mostly. I don't see why we have to kill our children and grandparents though. Death should not be an option, and doctors, who are meant to heal, should not have to kill.
You speak of innocence, yet you're perfectly alright with condemning an innocent child to death. Quit being a hypocrite.
You mean somebody considers it to be a win if a baby is murdered in the womb?
You can do what you want with your body, but you're talking about another life here as if it's you. It has different DNA, different thoughts (though the unborn child does react to the mother's emotions) and is often a different gender. It is not your life.
Wow, you just like to argue. No one has even mentioned religion in here. Way to go in making yourself look like a fool (b'-')b
Originally Posted by Pokemon Jupiter Version
[ Original Post ]
True, but isn't a child usually aborted around 10 months? That's way more than just premature.
uhh... that's usually a month after the child is born. You're good with killing a baby too huh?
Now now now, we don't have to get all angry because we share different opinions.
The real debate is when the "human spark" of life really begins. I believe it is further in the pregnacy than when abortions take place. Therefore, I believe that an abortion is okay. Your belief is obviously different, so don't call me a murderer.
As I said before, it's my body. I'd most likely not do it, but I support it because it's part of my body, and it's a part of any woman's body. A person should have a choice what to do with thier body.
Now I'm going to shut up now because this place has an imbalance of prolife supporters, and I'm certain I'm going to get flamed. Again.
You can hate me for all you want, call me a murderer, blah blah blah. I don't really care, though. Simply because I understand why you have your opinion, and unless you're not showing it, you don't understand mine. I'm pro-CHOICE. I have my reasons, you have your reasons for being pro-life. Rather than making it a war to prove eachother right, why can't we just get our opinions out?
I'm not going to say any more on the subject. I see no reason to support my opinions if people are only looking to counter mine rather than support theirs and have a friendlier, more understanding debate.
"I want to tear myself from this place, from this reality, rise up like a cloud and float away, melt into this humid summer night and dissolve somewhere far, over the hills. But I am here, my legs blocks of concrete, my lungs empty of air, my throat burning. There will be no floating away."
— Khaled Hosseini
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whoever disabled my signature:
my signature is not even close to 300px tall.
i dont understand why it was disabled.
the moment I saw this thread I knew it would turn into a debate, rather than counter arguments I'll expose reasons for my own: Why do I think the fetus is a separate life? because it is on the way of developing, it depends on the mother to sustain itself, granted, but so does a newborn, a baby, only in the outside, life begins at fertilization and the start of growth. Why do I think it is better to let the child be born and then use an alternative such as adoption?
yes, children who are the product of rape and other events that could make the mother think of an abortion will have a hard time dealing with it, but, what makes death any better for them? instead of just the possibility of a rough life you are giving them...the certainty of no life at all, not even a chance to come to terms with what led to their birth. Abortion=contraception?
absolutely not. contraception is to prevent fertilization, abortion kills the fetus, simple, and completely different. Abortion= amputation, doing what you have the right to do with your own property? Absolutely not, the fetus is another life, not a part of you, sohuld the fetus be successfully transferred to either another person or an artificial nourishment source, it would continue its growth into a human being, any other part of your body would either die or continue to be just that, a body part, performing the same functions as it is not alive by itself. Why do I agree with euthanasia then? I agree only under certain circumstances, i.e the individual in question is facing an inevitable death, doesn't want to wait for it, there is nothing to do, the individual is fully able to decide that and is presumamby mature enough to understand that choice.
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