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Old March 23rd, 2010 (8:16 AM).
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It's been signed into law today, but 14 states are taking legal action against it. And Texas awhile ago said they'd leave the union if they didn't like what the President was doing. :/ really interesting this is getting.

Honestly, will people notice if texas is gone?
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (8:17 AM).
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Honestly, will people notice if texas is gone?
It's the biggest donor state to the government. The government will notice, but no, your right, no one else will.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (9:20 AM).
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It's been signed into law today, but 14 states are taking legal action against it. And Texas awhile ago said they'd leave the union if they didn't like what the President was doing. :/ really interesting this is getting.
Man, I just gotta love my home state. XD

...because secession is the best way to deal with dissatisfaction over federal laws...instead of...you know, calling for judicial review or something like that. >_<
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (9:26 AM). Edited March 23rd, 2010 by Netto Azure.
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US President Barack Obama signs landmark US healthcare bill into law


Mr Obama now has to sell the reforms to a divided American public


Quote:
US President Barack Obama has signed his landmark healthcare bill into law in a ceremony at the White House.
The new law will eventually extend health insurance cover to about 32 million Americans who currently do not have any.
Mr Obama said he was signing the bill for people like his mother "who argued with insurance companies even as she battled cancer in her final days".
The bill is strongly opposed by the Republicans, who say it is too costly.
Immediately after the signing, attorneys general from 13 states - 12 Republicans and one Democrat - began legal proceedings against the federal government seeking to stop the reforms on the grounds that they are unconstitutional.
Mr Obama was joined at the White House signing ceremony by healthcare reform supporters including Democrats from both Houses of Congress who supported the measure.
He said the bill's provisions were "desperately needed", adding: "The bill I'm signing will set in motion reforms that generations of Americans have fought for and marched for and hungered to see."
He hailed the "historic leadership and uncommon courage" of the Democratic leadership in Congress that secured the bill's passage, singling out House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid for particular praise.
He concluded: "Today after almost a century of trial, today after over a year of debate, today after all the votes have been tallied, health insurance reform becomes law in the United States of America. Today.
"All of the overheated rhetoric over reform will finally confront the reality of reform."
Mr Obama now has to sell the reforms to a divided American public before November's mid-term elections.
On Thursday, he will go to the state of Iowa to talk about how the new law will help to lower healthcare costs for small businesses and families.
After a heated debate, the House of Representatives voted 219-212 late on Sunday to send the 10-year, $938bn bill to Mr Obama. Not one Republican voted for the bill, and some Democrats also voted against it.
The measure, which the Senate passed in December, is expected to expand health insurance coverage to about 95% of eligible Americans, compared with the 83% covered today.
It will ban insurance company practices such as denying coverage to people with existing medical problems.
Correspondents say the bill represents the biggest expansion of the federal government's social safety net since President Lyndon Johnson enacted the Medicare and Medicaid government-funded healthcare programmes for the elderly and poor in the 1960s.
Mr Obama's campaign to overhaul US healthcare seemed stalled in January, when a Republican won a special election to fill the late Edward Kennedy's Massachusetts Senate seat, and with it, enough Republican votes to prevent the bill from coming to a final vote in the Senate.
But Democrats came up with a plan that required the House to approve the Senate-passed measure - despite its opposition to many of its provisions - and then have both chambers pass a measure incorporating numerous changes after the president signed it into law.
So yes, the The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is officially law on March 23rd 2010. :D

Now on to reconciliation.

Anyways:

Parliamentarian Rules Against GOP Challenge

Quote:
Senate Parliamentarian Alan Frumin ruled against a Republican challenge to the health care reconciliation package, Roll Call reports.

However, Senate Republicans "remain confident that Frumin will rule in their favor on at least one of the many challenges they plan to raise."

Said one GOP aide: "One down, many more to go."
Also:

Waterloo
By David Frum

"
No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?"

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Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.
It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:
(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.
(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.
So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:
A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.
At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.
Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.
This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.
Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.
Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.
No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?
We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.
There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?
I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.
So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.
As for the court battles. Federal Law trumps (>) State actions.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (10:12 AM). Edited March 23rd, 2010 by Prince_of_Light.
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Yes and that federalistic education system is falling to pieces right now. :D If you look at countries where education is centralized and controlled and, for the most part, every child learns the same thing, oh wow they do better on test scores than places that don't. With no bottom level standard for what students can and must learned beyond rigged standardized tests [that your teachers let you cheat on using things like Graphic Calculators etc] that never accurately judge a student's ability [Why is Algebra on the test at the beginning of the year when that is the level of math the student is begining that year? etc etc]

Why do you think Private and Homeschooled chlidren do better academically than public school chlidren? Mmm? It's really not that hard to figure out.



I hate to be Devil's advocate but since the topic is now swinging both ways, that same policy can be applied to the democrats and the education system because of the lucrative amount of fiances they receive from teacher's unions. Teachers don't want to be held accountable for how they teach, or have any standard like that. They like the one they're in currently even though, for students, it doesn't work in the least. :D

[/devil's advocate]
I agree with most of what you have stated, minus the obvious fact that our federal government would never be able to regulate how millions of kids get educated at a centralized level. That's why it was left out of the powers delegated to the federal government in the Constitution. The Constitution stays silent about it, therefore this power applies to the states.

But yes, I would agree. Home schooling and private schooling PWNZ public schooling. Centralized schooling works well in smaller countries because there's less population to regulate (most of these countries are about the size of a state anyway). The founders knew that eventually America would encompass both shores of the continent, so they left education up to the states.

However, I also disagree with your statement that it is because of the federalist system that our education is falling to pieces. The system isn't the problem, it's the local administrations failing to keep a high standard so they can get a good score on No Child Left Behind (HATE!) coupled with downright lack of student effort.

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Originally Posted by Timbjerr View Post
Man, I just gotta love my home state. XD

...because secession is the best way to deal with dissatisfaction over federal laws...instead of...you know, calling for judicial review or something like that. >_<
LOL. If Texas were to ever secede I would definitely move there. Texas has always been like that though, ever since they were separate from the republic before they actually became a state. Same deal with California, although they love what's going on too much to be rebellious.

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Originally Posted by Netto Azure View Post
As for the court battles. Federal Law trumps (>) State actions.
The states can still challenge the constitutionality of the bill, which they will win on unless the courts are stuffed with liberal activist judges who don't actually care about the Constitution.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (10:31 AM).
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Prince, there are court battles that maybe be happening 14 or so states are filing or thinking about sueing the US Government over this bill. If it goes to the Supreme Court, the bill could be Nullified alltogether. Because if I recall, the Supreme court has mainly Conservatives on it.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (10:48 AM).
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Prince, there are court battles that maybe be happening 14 or so states are filing or thinking about sueing the US Government over this bill. If it goes to the Supreme Court, the bill could be Nullified alltogether. Because if I recall, the Supreme court has mainly Conservatives on it.
I'm not sure what the liberal/conservative count on the Supreme Court is, actually. I hope you're right though.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (10:49 AM).
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I want to meet the guy who put in that stupid "get health insurance or be fined" thing in there. The one where if you DON'T have it by 2013, you'll be fined $350 per year. THAT is what I'm so against this "bill". If it didn't have that, I would have supported it. Somewhat.

I don't care about the good points. THAT one detail is what kills it for me. Just force more stuff on us, Obama!
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (10:50 AM).
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I want to meet the guy who put in that stupid "get health insurance or be fined" thing in there. The one where if you DON'T have it by 2013, you'll be fined $350 per year. THAT is what I'm so against this "bill". If it didn't have that, I would have supported it. Somewhat.

I don't care about the good points. THAT one detail is what kills it for me. Just force more stuff on us, Obama!
It starts out as $350, then it gets jacked up to $750. And that provision is what's mostly fueling the 13 state lawsuit.

And everyone supports a few provisions in the bill. It's just the other 2,395 pages of trash that make us hate it so.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:24 AM).
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Prince, there are court battles that maybe be happening 14 or so states are filing or thinking about sueing the US Government over this bill. If it goes to the Supreme Court, the bill could be Nullified alltogether. Because if I recall, the Supreme court has mainly Conservatives on it.
I don't know. Legal court challenges take years to get to the Supreme Court on account of Appeals.

And by that time this law will be fully in effect.

@Mario: Yes, the Individual Mandate portion of the bill sucks. But it has been floated around by both parties for so long because we can't "put everyone in the system" if they don't buy the private insurance (There are hardship exemptions though)

Oh well, that's why I was so critical of this bill from the beginning. Yet, it's what we get. Nobody wanted to have an open debate on the merits of other countries systems (Publicly, on record, shown in the Halls of Congress) due to the whole "American Exceptionalism" and "Socialized Medicine" stuff that we're seeing in this whole "apocalypse" reaction to this law.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:26 AM).
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I'm not sure what the liberal/conservative count on the Supreme Court is, actually. I hope you're right though.
Supreme Court Members
Chief Justice John Roberts- Conservative Appointed by George W. Bush
Justice John Stevens- Moderate, appointed by Ford
Justice Antonin Scalia- Conservative(I believe), Appointed by Reagan
Justice Anthony Kennedy- Moderate, Appointed by Reagan
Justice Clarence Thomas- Conservative, Appointed by George H.W. Bush
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg- Liberal, appointed by Clinton
Justice Stephan Breyer- Liberal, Appointed by Clinton
Justice Samuel Alito- Conservative, Appointed by George W. Bush
Justice Sonya Sotamayor- Liberal, Appointed by Barack Obama

So if this does end up going to the supreme court there are more Conservatives, but we have 2 moderates aswell, that could swing it.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:28 AM). Edited March 23rd, 2010 by Prince_of_Light.
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I don't know. Legal court challenges take years to get to the Supreme Court on account of Appeals.

And by that time this law will be fully in effect.

@Mario: Yes, the Individual Mandate portion of the bill sucks. But it has been floated around by both parties for so long because we can't "put everyone in the system" if they don't buy the private insurance (There are hardship exemptions though)

Oh well, that's why I was so critical of this bill from the beginning. Yet, it's what we get. Nobody wanted to have an open debate on the merits of other countries systems (Publicly, on record, shown in the Halls of Congress) due to the whole "American Exceptionalism" and "Socialized Medicine" stuff that we're seeing in this whole "apocalypse" reaction to this law.

You must realize that "other countries" have drastically smaller populations than we do, for the most part. That's why it doesn't FAIL as much for them (but it still fails). We have 350 million people as opposed to Canada's 30 million. That's why debt will be such a problem when making sure "everyone gets their fair share". As a matter of fact, India tried doing this, and they have about a couple billion people. They collapsed the hardest out of all the countries that tried a national system.

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Justice Sonya Sotamayor- Liberal, Appointed by Barack Obama.
This nomination made me want to throw up. This woman advocates determining what OUR Constitution means based on the opinions of judges on OTHER NATIONS' Constitutions! On top of that, she has said in many countless statements that "a wise Latina judge" knows better than most people.

Right. Ok. Racist and bigoted, much?
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:38 AM).
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Yeah congrats, good to see Mr Obama isn't just words!
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:39 AM).
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You must realize that "other countries" have drastically fewer populations than we do, for the most part. That's why it doesn't FAIL as much for them (but it still fails). We have 350 million people as opposed to Canada's 30 million. That's why debt will be such a problem when making sure "everyone gets their fair share". As a matter of fact, India tried doing this, and they have about a couple billion people. They collapsed the hardest out of all the countries that tried a national system.
Is that so? You keep on quoting Canada, but the French and the Germans have a Private health Insurance system similar to our Employer based system. And the French is considered as having the best.

Otherwise, we should expand Medicare to all because either way from what people can see there is no other way of controlling costs. (Even the French is moving toward it as their private insurance system is being deemed by the public as unsustainable) The free market is not working as it is in healthcare because as people demand the "best" medical technologies, it of course costs more. Then by the time we adopt that and the costs go down...there's a new technology that is even more expensive that people want.

To be frank Medicare is only "failing" now only on the revenue side because, as insurance was originally designed, the more healthy population isn't there to spread the risk pool of our senior citizens. And people wonder why Senior Citizens are picky about "keeping governments hands off Medicare"
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:40 AM).
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Yeah congrats, good to see Mr Obama isn't just words!
He pretty much is... this is really the only major thing he's done. Besides berate Israel.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:46 AM). Edited March 23rd, 2010 by Prince_of_Light.
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Is that so? You keep on quoting Canada, but the French and the Germans have a Private health Insurance system similar to our Employer based system. And the French is considered as having the best.

Otherwise, we should expand Medicare to all because either way from what people can see there is no other way of controlling costs. (Even the French is moving toward it as their private insurance system is being deemed by the public as unsustainable) The free market is not working as it is in healthcare because as people demand the "best" medical technologies, it of course costs more. Then by the time we adopt that and the costs go down...there's a new technology that is even more expensive that people want.

To be frank Medicare is only "failing" now only on the revenue side because, as insurance was originally designed, the more healthy population isn't there to spread the risk pool of our senior citizens. And people wonder why Senior Citizens are picky about "keeping governments hands off Medicare"
There are plenty of ways to control costs that don't cost taxpayers a cent. Read my first post. one of the few I didn't mention was opening up state borders so that people can choose what insurance companies they want to pick from. That way, the failing or overly expensive companies will go under and people can regulate it with their own pocketbooks instead of having the government stick its nose into everything.

Secondly, as you can tell from my first post, I really don't believe insurance companies or the technology is really the big problem (although I do agree that new technology should cost less). But that whole technology thing goes straight back to my point about colleges being the true money suckers. Hi-tech jobs take 6-8 years of school as well, and if you want to go to the best technical colleges in the country, you can expect tuition to be sky-high. Naturally, the new hi-tech employees expect to be paid well to get rid of their student loans, so their bosses help them out with a six-figure income if you do your work well. Which then gets passed on to the consumer. Think I'm kidding? Take a look at the software industry. Between that and all the piracy, it's no wonder why the price of Photoshop is several hundred dollars.

Thirdly, even if not for the baby-boomers retiring, the Medicare program is STILL an entitlement, destined to grow until it collapses. Unfortunately for the liberals, there's never enough of other people's money to spread around. So they take more.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:48 AM).
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I'm curious to know if some people hate this bill so much that a civil war would begin. So Texas would break away? Imagine that.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:50 AM).
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I'm curious to know if some people hate this bill so much that a civil war would begin. So Texas would break away? Imagine that.
Texas, and some other states now are actually considering it, such as Oklahoma and Montana. It would be interesting to see what happens in the upcoming months.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (11:56 AM).
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I'm curious to know if some people hate this bill so much that a civil war would begin. So Texas would break away? Imagine that.
I would love to see Texas leave. :3

Unfortunately, they would run themselves into the ground yet again (yes they were a country before) and we would take them back. :/
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (12:04 PM).
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Actually Every state BUT Texas would run themselves into the ground, I personally think Texas would do fairly well.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (12:33 PM).
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As a Texan myself, I can see a particular angle to secession that would be a benefit to my personal situation in life.

That's not to say that it's the right thing to do, and I'm fairly sure that the Texas state government isn't that stupid (as well as those other ones tossing around the idea)
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (1:29 PM).
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Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
This bill is a shame but thankfully it is nothing like the Canadian system.

The bigegst difference is there still is not socialiazed health plan, thank God.
The good: Bans insurers from denying people for pre-existing conditons or dropping people at will
The bad: Forces Americans who do not want or cannot afford private insurance to purchase it (need to be reviewed by US Supreme Court imo), might cover elective abortions
Don't see how it's bad that people must have health insurance in the end, it's good for them. Who actually wants to take their medicine? Nobody. Do they? Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
might cover elective abortions.
As far as I understand it, no. Obama will be make an executive order that won't make this possible.* I thionk that I also remember that it didn't have any money for except for rape cases anyway. Though, considering I don't remember where I got that, may be that should be ignored.

Anway, an Abortion is someones rights. Late-term abortion should be considered murder, but anything in the 1st 3 months I'm fine with, as was the Supreme Court.

For now anyway, I have a Government test over Congress to study. So good-day to you all.

*Source: NPR

Oh, and OBAMA 2012! Woo Hoo!
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (1:33 PM).
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Originally Posted by Simmons_2.0 View Post
Texas, and some other states now are actually considering it, such as Oklahoma and Montana. It would be interesting to see what happens in the upcoming months.
No. They are not considering a civil war. :| They filed lawsuits against the federal government. That happens all the time. :|

wow.

Just wow.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (1:37 PM).
Prince_of_Light Prince_of_Light is offline
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Originally Posted by .little monster View Post
No. They are not considering a civil war. :| They filed lawsuits against the federal government. That happens all the time. :|

wow.

Just wow.
He was referring to this part:

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Originally Posted by Fur Elise View Post
So Texas would break away? Imagine that.
aka not civil war, just secession.
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Old March 23rd, 2010 (1:40 PM).
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Originally Posted by Prince_of_Light View Post
He was referring to this part:
Then he still said something stupid, because the only place where sucession is even remotely popular is Texas. :|

And most people in Texas say that it's stupid because they know Texas by itself cannot maintain itself as a strong independent country.
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