Education in America Page 4

Started by Livewire September 23rd, 2010 1:22 PM
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What do you think?

FreakyLocz14

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charter schools are pretty expensive, i don't know how they would be able to beat the free pricetag of public schools.
It doesn't cost money to attend a charter school. They are tuition-free as well.

Dawn

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There will always be bad students who don't care about their education. That is a natural result of compulsory education. However, we need to stop giving teachers tenure. No one fires a teacher for doing a good job, so why protect those who do a bad job? Charter schools do well because everybody is held accountable, even the students and their parents. Students and/or parents who consitently fail to meet reasobale expectations are dismissed from the charter school and are allowed back into the public school in their area, since students residing in that school's service area automatically have a right to attend that school.

Competititon does have consequences on schools who consitently perform poorly. We need to force these shools to compete, but we can also have alternative schools to service at-risk students. If my theory works, than the public school would become almost as rigorous as the private prep schools. Giving students choice would be a good idea. Students who wish to attend the local public school may do so, but students should also be allowed to attend other schools within their district if that school offers a program or course that the student would not be able to particpate in at the local school, or if the student genuinely feels that they would recieve a better education there. We should also allow for interdistrict transfers of students show a good cause as to why they would benefit from such a transfer. Students who consitently fail to meet reasonable academic expectations for their grade level should be placed in alternative schools as a means of intervention. Many of these schools have less rigorous graduation requirements, focusing on core state requirements instead of extra academic rigor. May also allow for more work experience programs and have staff that are trained to work with students who have special needs or who are behind in their studies and offer smaller class sizes for more individualized instruction.



Students do, and should, think about competition. Students who wish to attend prestigious colleges after high school are comepeting with a pool of applicants to those colleges, and many do come from overseas. So, yes, being competitive is already a factor in our education system.
First of all, do you realize if more schools followed the charter school there would be no public schools for many people to go back to, screwing up the entire system we have going? Are you implying that we should drop the "Leave no child behind" law?

Second of all, "Students do, and should, think about competition. Students who wish to attend prestigious colleges after high school are comepeting with a pool of applicants to those colleges, and many do come from overseas. So, yes, being competitive is already a factor in our education system."

I don't think you've given a strong reason to your claim.

Why would someone necessarily want to go to a prestigious college after high school? School counselors I know recommend against this, claiming that the first year or two would be a waste of money because you're mainly taking academics wherever you go. They advise transferring to a college of your choice once you're past that point.

And if competition is already a factor in our supposedly failing education system, doesn't that go to suggest that it's obviously not making us succeed and it's a pointless, possibly bad idea to encourage more of it?

Furthermore, I want to once again point out that many, I'd go as far as to say most, people do not care about competing in school. Most people just want good grades so they can get a good education and live a happy life. That, and or they're interested in learning. Their definition of success is generally determined by their grade, not their relative grade to some other kid in some other country.

I certainly didn't, and still don't. Am I somehow a worse student because of it? It doesn't seem like it. I go to a pretty darn prestigious school. So tell me. How exactly is competition necessarily good again? Are you sure that's not a generalization to begin with? Perhaps competition is good for some people, but not for others. It obviously isn't good for everyone.
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FreakyLocz14

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First of all, do you realize if more schools followed the charter school there would be no public schools for many people to go back to, screwing up the entire system we have going? Are you implying that we should drop the "Leave no child behind" law?

Second of all, "Students do, and should, think about competition. Students who wish to attend prestigious colleges after high school are comepeting with a pool of applicants to those colleges, and many do come from overseas. So, yes, being competitive is already a factor in our education system."

I don't think you've given a strong reason to your claim.

Why would someone necessarily want to go to a prestigious college after high school? School counselors I know recommend against this, claiming that the first year or two would be a waste of money because you're mainly taking academics wherever you go. They advise transferring to a college of your choice once you're past that point.

And if competition is already a factor in our supposedly failing education system, doesn't that go to suggest that it's obviously not making us succeed and it's a pointless, possibly bad idea to encourage more of it?

Furthermore, I want to once again point out that many, I'd go as far as to say most, people do not care about competing in school. Most people just want good grades so they can get a good education and live a happy life. That, and or they're interested in learning. Their definition of success is generally determined by their grade, not their relative grade to some other kid in some other country.

I certainly didn't, and still don't. Am I somehow a worse student because of it? It doesn't seem like it. I go to a pretty darn prestigious school. So tell me. How exactly is competition necessarily good again? Are you sure that's not a generalization to begin with? Perhaps competition is good for some people, but not for others. It obviously isn't good for everyone.
It's beyond me why students want to attend a prestigious, and most likely expensive, college after high school. I agree that starting of at a community college or state university, then transferring, is the best path economically and I would advise students to do so. Still, we have a significant amount of graduating high school seniors applying to top-tier schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and other hard-to-get-into schools.

But that competitive mindset is only a portion of a school's student body, and those students generally have better grades, are more well behaved, and are involved in more activities than the average student. This is a must for there hopes of gaining admission into one of the above mentioned colleges to ever come to fruition.

Dawn

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It's beyond me why students want to attend a prestigious, and most likely expensive, college after high school. I agree that starting of at a community college or state university, then transferring, is the best path economically and I would advise students to do so. Still, we have a significant amount of graduating high school seniors applying to top-tier schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and other hard-to-get-into schools.
That seems to be because of the naive assumption that it's important to do so. Regardless of the fact that it suggests a lack of individual intelligence, ironically. I wouldn't credit it to a competitive mindset. Not at all. It's only recently that the public has started to move towards suggesting people don't do this. Up until now it has been "Shove it down their throats that getting into the best college is life's greatest achievment.".

But that competitive mindset is only a portion of a school's student body, and those students generally have better grades, are more well behaved, and are involved in more activities than the average student. This is a must for there hopes of gaining admission into one of the above mentioned colleges to ever come to fruition.
I posted a link to a school that as a whole basically contradicts this statement. It's laid back. See: Not competitive
However, it's one of the best in the country in terms of all of the above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-B_Woodlawn

Correlation =/= causation, yes?
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FreakyLocz14

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That seems to be because of the naive assumption that it's important to do so. Regardless of the fact that it suggests a lack of individual intelligence, ironically. I wouldn't credit it to a competitive mindset. Not at all. It's only recently that the public has started to move towards suggesting people don't do this. Up until now it has been "Shove it down their throats that getting into the best college is life's greatest achievment.".



I posted a link to a school that as a whole basically contradicts this statement. It's laid back. See: Not competitive
However, it's one of the best in the country in terms of all of the above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-B_Woodlawn

Correlation =/= causation, yes?
This school is ranked by the number of students enrolled in AP classes? It seems like a charter school or a magnet school to me since it takes students from neighboring schools into its programs.

Livewire

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First of all, do you realize if more schools followed the charter school there would be no public schools for many people to go back to, screwing up the entire system we have going? Are you implying that we should drop the "Leave no child behind" law?

Second of all, "Students do, and should, think about competition. Students who wish to attend prestigious colleges after high school are comepeting with a pool of applicants to those colleges, and many do come from overseas. So, yes, being competitive is already a factor in our education system."

I don't think you've given a strong reason to your claim.

Why would someone necessarily want to go to a prestigious college after high school? School counselors I know recommend against this, claiming that the first year or two would be a waste of money because you're mainly taking academics wherever you go. They advise transferring to a college of your choice once you're past that point.

And if competition is already a factor in our supposedly failing education system, doesn't that go to suggest that it's obviously not making us succeed and it's a pointless, possibly bad idea to encourage more of it?

Furthermore, I want to once again point out that many, I'd go as far as to say most, people do not care about competing in school. Most people just want good grades so they can get a good education and live a happy life. That, and or they're interested in learning. Their definition of success is generally determined by their grade, not their relative grade to some other kid in some other country.

I certainly didn't, and still don't. Am I somehow a worse student because of it? It doesn't seem like it. I go to a pretty darn prestigious school. So tell me. How exactly is competition necessarily good again? Are you sure that's not a generalization to begin with? Perhaps competition is good for some people, but not for others. It obviously isn't good for everyone.


People want to go to a prestigeous college because of the superior education expierience it offers them. Better education from a prestigeous school= better job opportunites, thus more $, thus better quality of life.

"Students do, and should, think about competition. Students who wish to attend prestigious colleges after high school are comepeting with a pool of applicants to those colleges, and many do come from overseas. So, yes, being competitive is already a factor in our education system."


@ Yellow

How does that not suppoprt her claim? that proves it.

Yes, no child left behind needs to go, or it needs to be seriously reformed.

Competition is good because it ensures that the best of the best get into the prestigeous schools, and it means people who are actually qualified get the jobs/opportunities they deserve. Also, schools in a way, compete with each other in order to get federal funding, per the rules of NCLB.

And I'm not even sure we're talking about the same sort of competition here. What you're saying doesn't make much sense in the context of the discussion.

Dawn

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@Live_Wire466

You're kind of one to talk. I don't see any sort of reasoning or evidence backing up your claims which is about as strong an argument as a middle finger. Probably worse. No what she said does not prove anything. Where exactly are you going with this? I don't see you fighting the argument. You seem to be trying to fight me.

I also frown at your fake quote. Be... frowned upon. Also, your formatting is so broken that I can't quote you without having to debug your code. -_-

What the heck man?


This school is ranked by the number of students enrolled in AP classes? It seems like a charter school or a magnet school to me since it takes students from neighboring schools into its programs.
No. HB Woodlawn itself is not technically a school in the legal sense at all. It's a sort of "program." This is despite the fact that this program has an entire school building dedicated to it, complete with teachers and classes and a sort of unofficial diploma alongside the official diploma that you get from your home school district. Theoretically, you're graduating from your home school, but HB Woodlawn has it's own teachers, it's own rules, it's own curiculum, it's own students, it's own teachers, it's own staff, it's own building, it's own everything. It's basically a school in everything but the legal sense.
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Livewire

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@Live_Wire466

You're kind of one to talk. I don't see any evidence to your claims which is about as strong an argument as a middle finger. Probably worse. No what she said does not prove anything. Where exactly are you going with this? I don't see you fighting the argument. You seem to be trying to fight me.

I also frown at your fake quote. Be... frowned upon. Also, your formatting is so broken that I can't quote you without having to debug your code. -_-

What the heck man?


The post about competition was spot on. That is true, whether you agree with it or not. Students compete with each other, inside the country and abroad. You cannot deny that, it is an inescapable fact. I frown upon the fact you're dening what's blatanly obvious.


You're missing my point, entirely. You said earlier that "what if I don't want to compete" Well, you are in a competition, whether you realize it or not. Resources are limited these days. With college tuition costs as high as they are, students are trying to get the best grades possible in order to succeed. MIT, Harvard, Yale, Brown, Cornell, and plenty of other non- Ivy league schools only accept a certain amount of students each year, including thousands of INTERNATIONAL students. If the international students have a better education system, then they'll be the ones getting excepted, not our students, because our grades aren't up to par, compared to thiers.

Do you realize that colleges have an enrollment process that determines who they allow in, per Title IX and Affirmitive Action, and through Legacies? You can't just apply to a school and they automatically accept you anymore. You have to meet the specs, and our students are getting shafted because our system is faltering, and our students are not up to par.

FreakyLocz14

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@Live_Wire466

You're kind of one to talk. I don't see any sort of reasoning or evidence backing up your claims which is about as strong an argument as a middle finger. Probably worse. No what she said does not prove anything. Where exactly are you going with this? I don't see you fighting the argument. You seem to be trying to fight me.

I also frown at your fake quote. Be... frowned upon. Also, your formatting is so broken that I can't quote you without having to debug your code. -_-

What the heck man?




No. HB Woodlawn itself is not technically a school in the legal sense at all. It's a sort of "program." This is despite the fact that this program has an entire school building dedicated to it, complete with teachers and classes and a sort of unofficial diploma alongside the official diploma that you get from your home school district. Theoretically, you're graduating from your home school, but HB Woodlawn has it's own teachers, it's own rules, it's own curiculum, it's own students, it's own teachers, it's own staff, it's own building, it's own everything. It's basically a school in everything but the legal sense.
So it is an alternative school, like charter and magnet schools are. That is a part of the type of education reform I've been advocating througout this entire thread.

Dawn

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So it is an alternative school, like charter and magnet schools are. That is a part of the type of education reform I've been advocating througout this entire thread.
It's different from a charter school or a magnet school.

In a charter school, rules are typically loosened with the expectation that everyone meets a certain minimum performance.

There is no such minimum performance expectation there. It's hardly "like" either of them in the sense you're implying.
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Alright, here's my two cents.

In America, a lot of focus in school is put into extracurricular activities such as Homecoming, Prom, and Football games. Since this focus is mainly pinned onto these activities, less goes to the actual education of the students. I'm very lazy in school, because it's so damn easy. I'm never really challenged in school at all unless I'm at a real mental block. Because of this, standardized tests are often skewed towards this less competetive and less serious enviornment, which is the opposite of schools in different countries. This is the main reason why we score lower on international standardized tests.

Another factor is how they condition children in the classroom. When I lived in Japan when I was four, I went to several international academies before attending a Japanese school. In the international schools I would cause all sorts of trouble and mayhem, but in the Japanese school I was a little angel (hehehe). The teachers in the international school were such wussies they had no idea how the hell to handle me, and somehow people who didn't speak a lick of English managed to lay me back in line, however.

WriteThemWrong

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Alright, here's my two cents.

In America, a lot of focus in school is put into extracurricular activities such as Homecoming, Prom, and Football games.
my high school barely had enough money for any of those things. our class had to fundraise like crazy so that we didn't have to have prom in the gym and our football field is trash. that's not to say student athletics event planning isn't important.

So it is an alternative school, like charter and magnet schools are. That is a part of the type of education reform I've been advocating througout this entire thread.
so if we're just going to turn everything into a "charter" or "magnet" school what does that solve?
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FreakyLocz14

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my high school barely had enough money for any of those things. our class had to fundraise like crazy so that we didn't have to have prom in the gym and our football field is trash. that's not to say student athletics event planning isn't important.



so if we're just going to turn everything into a "charter" or "magnet" school what does that solve?
Charter schools hold everybody accountable. They hold teachers, students, and parents accountable for the student's educational progress.

We also need to stop giving teachers tenure. No one fires good teachers, so the only teachers that benefit are the bad ones. I remember someone saying that tenure protects a teacher's beliefs. Well, teachers shouldn't be indoctrinating students with their beliefs, they should be teaching so that students can be educated enough to form their own ideas and opinions.

Livewire

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Charter schools hold everybody accountable. They hold teachers, students, and parents accountable for the student's educational progress.

We also need to stop giving teachers tenure. No one fires good teachers, so the only teachers that benefit are the bad ones. I remember someone saying that tenure protects a teacher's beliefs. Well, teachers shouldn't be indoctrinating students with their beliefs, they should be teaching so that students can be educated enough to form their own ideas and opinions.
Tenure has next to nothing to do with "beliefs", at all. All tenure does is reward established teachers with steady income, benefits and employment. Tenure protects good teachers from loosing their jobs to something like a layoff. Good Teachers do get fired, but normally for financial reasons. Tenure protects teachers worthy of being protected in the first place.

WriteThemWrong

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Charter schools hold everybody accountable. They hold teachers, students, and parents accountable for the student's educational progress.

We also need to stop giving teachers tenure. No one fires good teachers, so the only teachers that benefit are the bad ones. I remember someone saying that tenure protects a teacher's beliefs. Well, teachers shouldn't be indoctrinating students with their beliefs, they should be teaching so that students can be educated enough to form their own ideas and opinions.
i kind of agree with that. some subjects are naturally controversial and opinions are going to spill into it. teachers should try to limit that but i don't think its grounds for termination.

it's easy to blame teachers if students aren't doing too good but unless the teacher is openly miserable with the job and is putting absolutely no effort they shouldn't be scrutinized so much. wouldn't it be possible to make every school like a charter school where everyone is accountable instead of just limiting to one kind of school while every other school is suffering?
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FreakyLocz14

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Tenure has next to nothing to do with "beliefs", at all. All tenure does is reward established teachers with steady income, benefits and employment. Tenure protects good teachers from loosing their jobs to something like a layoff. Good Teachers do get fired, but normally for financial reasons. Tenure protects teachers worthy of being protected in the first place.
There is no incentive to do your job well if you have tenure. I'm not saying all tenured teachers are bad, but the bad side of tenure is it lets good teachers get lazy now that their job is secure.

i kind of agree with that. some subjects are naturally controversial and opinions are going to spill into it. teachers should try to limit that but i don't think its grounds for termination.

it's easy to blame teachers if students aren't doing too good but unless the teacher is openly miserable with the job and is putting absolutely no effort they shouldn't be scrutinized so much. wouldn't it be possible to make every school like a charter school where everyone is accountable instead of just limiting to one kind of school while every other school is suffering?
Holding discussions and sharing opinions is a valid method of getting students thinking. But those opinions should clearly be identified as opinion and not be presented as academic material.
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interesting quote i stumbled upon i felt was totally relevant to share here:
Gatto states, “It’s no secret that the US educational system doesn’t do a very good job.” But when we look at the information Gatto has uncovered regarding the purpose of the education system as designed by the men that funded and implemented the foundation of the American educational system in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, we discover, in fact, that the US educational system accomplishes exactly what it was designed to do – to dumb down people and suppress the natural inquisitiveness and critical thought processes of children…

Gatto reveals that Eldwood Cubberly, the future Dean of Education of Stanford University, argued, in his 1905 dissertation for schools that should be factory-like in production “in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products…manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry.”

Gatto confirms my thesis by pointing out a statement from the Rockefeller Education Board, a key institution that was a critical force in shaping modern education in America: “We shall not try to make [students] into philosophers or men of learning or men of science…The task we set before ourselves is simple…we will organize children…and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.”
is this how education is viewed by our leaders, as a tool for organization instead of growth? is this the root of the system's possible demise?

Livewire

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There is no incentive to do your job well if you have tenure. I'm not saying all tenured teachers are bad, but the bad side of tenure is it lets good teachers get lazy now that their job is secure.
I'm sure there are some lazy tenured teachers out there, but that's a big generalization.

Remember if a university gives tenure to a professor, then the professor is expected to publish some sort of academic work (the publish or perish phenomina) in order to stay tenured/respected by thier colleagues. Tenure, plus the pressure form Departments/Deans/Provosts, etc, keeps them on their toes by forcing them to stay somewhat active in terms of publishing thier work.
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is this how education is viewed by our leaders, as a tool for organization instead of growth? is this the root of the system's possible demise?
No, the root of the system's demise is the simple lie, "You can be anything that you want to be." Schools are more like conditioning devices than educational centers in the sense that most only teach you what you 'need' to know before sending you out into the world.



I'd like to bring up something a tad different: The SAT/ACT. These, in my personal opinion, are the most useless aspects of the school system. The majority of colleges require above a certain score on either, but it really doesn't matter. Few colleges actually go through with checking scores because they are aware of one simple fact: These tests don't measure intelligence, they measure test-taking skills.

In your mind, picture some kind of generic test problem with four answer choices labeled A, B, C, and D. We'll say that the correct answer is B, and D is No Solution. There are three scenarios here:

1: We'll say you did the problem correctly and you're sure it's B. Your confidence in the answer allows you to move on.

2: You did the problem incorrectly and got an answer that isn't there. You pick D, figure it's an easy one, and move on.

3: You slipped up a tiny bit in the problem and got A for an answer. You mark it and move on.

What was the point of this? Well, the answers to every test question are designed to cover all bases. One is right and one is No Solution, but the others can be anything, right?

Wrong. The people who create these questions not only work them out the right way, but they work them out the wrong way too. The other two answer choices are the most popular wrong answers, intended to trick people into thinking that they got it right.

Also, the SAT and ACT are geared towards different genders based on organization. One of them is neater and the questions are separated by subject (all of the Algebra 1 questions, then all of the Algebra 2, and so on), while the other is much more scattered (an Algebra 1 question, then a Geometry question, then another Algebra 1 question). I forget which is which.

...Aaand I'm done venting about this. I had to get that out of my system 'cause I'm taking the SAT soon.
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I'm sure there are some lazy tenured teachers out there, but that's a big generalization.

Remember if a university gives tenure to a professor, then the professor is expected to publish some sort of academic work (the publish or perish phenomina) in order to stay tenured/respected by thier colleagues. Tenure, plus the pressure form Departments/Deans/Provosts, etc, keeps them on their toes by forcing them to stay somewhat active in terms of publishing thier work.
that's very true, tenure at a public university means a whole lot more than tenure at a high school. my college requires tenure professors to publish academic works to a magazine or in a book regularly. i would definitely be supportive of something like this for all teachers, it might not be that they have to publish work but maybe talk or write about their acheivements, what they've learned, give some examples, etc, something. seeing how valuable tenure is to some professors, yet not threatening to their jobs, i think it could be a very good incentive for teachers to stay active and enthusiastic.
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FreakyLocz14

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I'm sure there are some lazy tenured teachers out there, but that's a big generalization.

Remember if a university gives tenure to a professor, then the professor is expected to publish some sort of academic work (the publish or perish phenomina) in order to stay tenured/respected by thier colleagues. Tenure, plus the pressure form Departments/Deans/Provosts, etc, keeps them on their toes by forcing them to stay somewhat active in terms of publishing thier work.
Teachers should focus on teaching, not research. Thats one of the reasons I prefer students to start at local community colleges. Teachers there just teach and don't engage in too much research for the most part.

Livewire

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Teachers should focus on teaching, not research. Thats one of the reasons I prefer students to start at local community colleges. Teachers there just teach and don't engage in too much research for the most part.
Well again, that's a bit of a generalization too. I started at a community college myself ( The branch campus of my my college) and most of my professors there were actively engaged in research and publishing their work, all while teaching. My HST 231 Professor was writing his third book while I took his class, and it was one of the best classes I ever took. My philosophy professor is a member of the medical board at the nearby hospital, which deals with transplants, abortions etc. his class is also excellent. However, I will agree that professors at branch/community colleges are better at actual teaching, because smaller class sizes allow them to be more hands on.

At the collegiate level, professors have to engage in publishing thier work and in R&D of thier field. Its how the University system works.

FreakyLocz14

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14 Years


Well again, that's a bit of a generalization too. I started at a community college myself ( The branch campus of my my college) and most of my professors there were actively engaged in research and publishing their work, all while teaching. My HST 231 Professor was writing his third book while I took his class, and it was one of the best classes I ever took. My philosophy professor is a member of the medical board at the nearby hospital, which deals with transplants, abortions etc. his class is also excellent. However, I will agree that professors at branch/community colleges are better at actual teaching, because smaller class sizes allow them to be more hands on.

At the collegiate level, professors have to engage in publishing thier work and in R&D of thier field. Its how the University system works.
The University system yes, but not all community college systems. In most community college systems in my state usually do not require professors engage in extensive research. This makes for individual professors being able to take on more class sections and hold more office hours. Now, nothing stops them for doing research on their accord, so we still have some professor who are involved in research projects.

Livewire

Male
Sunnyshore City
Seen December 3rd, 2022
Posted August 2nd, 2019
14,091 posts
13.8 Years
The University system yes, but not all community college systems. In most community college systems in my state usually do not require professors engage in extensive research. This makes for individual professors being able to take on more class sections and hold more office hours. Now, nothing stops them for doing research on their accord, so we still have some professor who are involved in research projects.
Maybe California does things different, but the majority, if not all the colleges, branch and main campus in the Midwest require research, based on the University system. And I'm sure there are more colleges that do that.

FreakyLocz14

Conservative Patriot

Male
Seen August 29th, 2018
Posted August 28th, 2018
3,497 posts
14 Years


Maybe California does things different, but the majority, if not all the colleges, branch and main campus in the Midwest require research, based on the University system. And I'm sure there are more colleges that do that.
In California, community colleges are sort of a midway between high school and the university. While they teach the same courses that freshman and sophmore university students would take, unlike the public universities, that are organized on the state level, community collegs are organized by local community college districts similar to how K-12 schools are organized.