The Burqa - Should it be banned? Page 2

Started by curiousnathan September 27th, 2010 7:37 PM
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I'd stand by this as well.

No, a woman should not be forced to wear a burqa because it is part of her culture - and I'm sure more than half the population in woman of this culture, given the chance, would go without it. But for those who do wear it because they are strong believers of their own culture shouldn't be forced to remove it either.
strong believers of their own culture
That... what? That doesn't even make sense!

In any case, you've admitted to believing that the burqa is forced upon a significant number of the population - why then do you continue to defend it when it is clearly a tool of oppression? You just admitted that it was.

As far as I know, the Koran states that men and women should dress modestly in public but it makes no direct statement as to whether or not the burqa should be worn. It seems more like a cultural/personal choice than a religious one.
Why do you, and so many others, assume that religion and culture are always mutually exclusive. You even just admitted that there are instructions in the Qur'an to dress modestly in public, and then go to say that it's got little to do with the religion. Can you contradict yourself any more?
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Why do you, and so many others, assume that religion and culture are always mutually exclusive. You even just admitted that there are instructions in the Qur'an to dress modestly in public, and then go to say that it's got little to do with the religion. Can you contradict yourself any more?
Dress modestly =/= wear a burqa.

Derp.

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That... what? That doesn't even make sense!

In any case, you've admitted to believing that the burqa is forced upon a significant number of the population - why then do you continue to defend it when it is clearly a tool of oppression? You just admitted that it was.
Let's put this in simpler terms then. It was too early in the morning to think straight on a topic like this. XD;

- It shouldn't be forced upon women and being used as a tool of oppression just makes it worse.
- If a woman herself chooses to wear it, then so be it.
- Banning part of a culture seems unfair. I can understand not allowing it for events such as a job, or other specific occasions, but other than that, a woman should be free to wear it wherever and whenever she wants if she even wants to at all.

I think that's pretty clear enough on where I stand on the subject.

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I'm not sure where I stand on this one really, but in terms of fairness (Yay for childishness!) then seeing as most countries that women must wear burquas will make foreign women wh are wearing, say bikinis or mini-skirts change to cover themselves up because it offends them, then we should be allowed to tell them to change aswell.
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If it's the woman's decision to wear it, then she should be damned well able to wear it. It's called Cultural Relativism, we need to judge someone's culture by the standards of their own culture and not our own. Even if it's a tool for discrimination, it is her decision.

It's like saying Jewish men should be banned from wearing Yamachas because we don't wear them.
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FreakyLocz14

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If it's the woman's decision to wear it, then she should be damned well able to wear it.
Actually, there are exceptions to animal cruelty laws in some states that allow for religious animal sacrafice practices.
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Actually, there are exceptions to animal cruelty laws in some states that allow for religious animal sacrafice practices.
That's the most dumbass thing I've heard all day. Source?
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That's the most dumbass thing I've heard all day. Source?
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/supreme-court-animal-sacrifice-court-citing-religious-freedom-voids-ban-animal.html

Supreme Court case regarding animal sacrafices.

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nytimes.com/1993/06/12/us/supreme-court-animal-sacrifice-court-citing-religious-freedom-voids-ban-animal.html
That is horrible, how can anyone be so cruel to an animal like that? >:( Makes me proud to be an atheist.

Anyway, to the topic on hand, I strongly believe that women (and men) should have the freedom to dress how they please, be it in a miniskirt or a full burqua.

Livewire

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Well, it ties in pretty with the Burqa fiasco. First Amendment + Establishment Clause. It's the law of the land.

I think we need to expand the discussion a bit to exactly where and why the Burqa has been banned. Take France for example.

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So despite evidence being provided that the burqa has been used in crime you stay committed to your original view?
Crimes done by men. I asked for one stating a woman committed the crime.
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That is horrible, how can anyone be so cruel to an animal like that? >:( Makes me proud to be an atheist.

Anyway, to the topic on hand, I strongly believe that women (and men) should have the freedom to dress how they please, be it in a miniskirt or a full burqua.
Without protections on religious freedom, your right to be an atheist and its associated practices and traditions can also come under attack.



Well, it ties in pretty with the Burqa fiasco. First Amendment + Establishment Clause. It's the law of the land.

I think we need to expand the discussion a bit to exactly where and why the Burqa has been banned. Take France for example.
The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, meaning it always trumps any other law. This kind of ban would not fly in the U.S., point blank.

We have laws that criminalize domestic violence already, so if a husband is abusing his wife, physically or psychologically, he can be prosecuted without banning the Burqa.

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We have laws that criminalize domestic violence already, so if a husband is abusing his wife, physically or psychologically, he can be prosecuted without banning the Burqa.
It's not always easy to prove that a husband is abusing his wife since she may be reluctant to accuse him and then have no one believe her and/or suffer more abuse in retaliation. This is one reason why people want the burqa banned - it removes, by law, one way in which man can abuse women (not that all men do or that every woman who wears a burqa is abused).

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Without protections on religious freedom, your right to be an atheist and its associated practices and traditions can also come under attack.



The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, meaning it always trumps any other law. This kind of ban would not fly in the U.S., point blank.

We have laws that criminalize domestic violence already, so if a husband is abusing his wife, physically or psychologically, he can be prosecuted without banning the Burqa.
I dunno, I'm all for religious freedom, but I don't think that it can excuse cruelty to animals. There's a line that's crossed there.

Livewire

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I dunno, I'm all for religious freedom, but I don't think that it can excuse cruelty to animals. There's a line that's crossed there.
I agree too, but... Well it may be animal cruelty according to our culture maybe, but not in the eyes of their culture. It's not really fair to judge through ethocentrism. Same argument applies for the Burqa.

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It's not always easy to prove that a husband is abusing his wife since she may be reluctant to accuse him and then have no one believe her and/or suffer more abuse in retaliation. This is one reason why people want the burqa banned - it removes, by law, one way in which man can abuse women (not that all men do or that every woman who wears a burqa is abused).
The woman can also leave her husband and divorce him. Especially in my state where we have no-fault divorce, which means you can divorce your spouse without having a particular reason.

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Yes, I'd like them banned- we're in the 21st century; don't openly segregate your children. We're not going to randomly find your daughter's forehead sexually arousing. Feel free to cover up everything else you want, but I'd like to at least see who I'm talking to. It's not AMERICAN CULTURE to hide behind a mask.

Example? In Asian countries, it's considered rude to stare someone in the eye, and it's polite to bow. They're not going to stop doing it just because you came along. So you're here in America- respect OUR culture and show your damn nose.


I don't understand why we have to tiptoe around these sorts of things.
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Dress modestly =/= wear a burqa.

Derp.
You can't determine what is does or does not mean. Sure you referred to the Qur'an, but you ignored other scriptural sources of Islam such as the hadith, and furthermore, you ignore Islamic traditions. The burqa is a perfectly valid interpretation of instruction to dress modestly. The fact that it is adopted so widely only further reinforces its validity.

Let's put this in simpler terms then. It was too early in the morning to think straight on a topic like this. XD;

- It shouldn't be forced upon women and being used as a tool of oppression just makes it worse.
- If a woman herself chooses to wear it, then so be it.
- Banning part of a culture seems unfair. I can understand not allowing it for events such as a job, or other specific occasions, but other than that, a woman should be free to wear it wherever and whenever she wants if she even wants to at all.

I think that's pretty clear enough on where I stand on the subject.
Fair enough, but in any case, as long as it is permitted, women will be forced to wear it. Furthermore, the item of clothing itself is a symbol of oppression, one that can't just be explained away by "oh it's her choice". In addition, she may wear it willingly due to societal and cultural pressures - you can't claim that she is always free to wear what she pleases.

Moreover, unlimited tolerance will eventually be destroyed by the intolerant. As long as we allow for women to wear it if they so choose to, eventually there will come a time in our society where women will be expected, and even forced to wear it. This is already happening in places like France, and even in Britain female police officers wear a head covering into mosques there.
If it's the woman's decision to wear it, then she should be damned well able to wear it. It's called Cultural Relativism, we need to judge someone's culture by the standards of their own culture and not our own. Even if it's a tool for discrimination, it is her decision.

It's like saying Jewish men should be banned from wearing Yamachas because we don't wear them.
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Cultural revisionism is a load of crap. We should be proud of our culture and its standards, and if immigrants don't want to adapt or adopt our culture when they come, then they shouldn't be allowed to stay. I'm fine with them coming, as I'm sure most people are, but if they don't want to become Australian, American or British or whatever, then they should go back home. In addition, even if you permit it in cases of women choosing to wear it, that doesn't stop it being forced upon them, either by male relatives or by societal and cultural pressures (cultural pressures that have no place in our culture yet still exist because of cultural relativists like yourself).

The comparison with the Jewish Yamachas is irrelevant. That doesn't hide ones identity and/or act as a form of oppression.
Crimes done by men. I asked for one stating a woman committed the crime.
Ah, my bad, didn't read that correctly.

Not that it makes any difference. The burqa can be worn by anyone, and it is exactly the fact that it is a woman's form clothing that allows for it to be used as a way to deceive law enforcement (as well as the fact that it covers everything and leaves no way besides height and eye colour as a means of identifying anyone). You can't even what sex someone wearing a burqa is.
Yes, I'd like them banned- we're in the 21st century; don't openly segregate your children. We're not going to randomly find your daughter's forehead sexually arousing. Feel free to cover up everything else you want, but I'd like to at least see who I'm talking to. It's not AMERICAN CULTURE to hide behind a mask.

Example? In Asian countries, it's considered rude to stare someone in the eye. So they're here in America- respect OUR culture and show your damn nose.


I don't understand why we have to tiptoe around these sorts of things.
I don't even understand why they get their children to wear these things as well. Even a head covering is a bit strange considering that it is supposed to protect their modesty. But then again, considering what Muhammad himself did, I'm not too surprised that they'd want to cover up their children...

Kura, it's because pointing out differences is a crime. Stating the full truth is a crime. Being honest is a crime.

Because heaven forbid that you offend someone with any of these today.

Livewire

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Cultural revisionism is a load of crap. We should be proud of our culture and its standards, and if immigrants don't want to adapt or adopt our culture when they come, then they shouldn't be allowed to stay. I'm fine with them coming, as I'm sure most people are, but if they don't want to become Australian, American or British or whatever, then they should go back home. In addition, even if you permit it in cases of women choosing to wear it, that doesn't stop it being forced upon them, either by male relatives or by societal and cultural pressures (cultural pressures that have no place in our culture yet still exist because of cultural relativists like yourself).
You say cultural revisionism is crap, yet you want to force immigrants to abandon their own culture and conform to yours? That's the load of crap right there. Chances are your culture is defined by immigrants.
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You say cultural revisionism is crap, yet you want to force immigrants to abandon their own culture and conform to yours? That's the load of crap right there. Chances are your culture is defined by immigrants.
Are you trying to imply that I'm a cultural revisionist, or are you just disagreeing? I'm not sure due to how you worded it.

Assumptions assumptions. Not that it's relevant, nor does it mean what I'm saying is wrong.

Livewire

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I'm not even sure how i worded it either, tbh.

But I would disagree with your statement that immigrants should conform to the culture they immigrate to. You can respect and participate in the new culture, but you shouldnt have to abandon your own in the process. Same applies to the Burqa.

You being from Australia would understand culture clash and how Immigration impacts culture from both sides. Particularly if you're Aboriginal. Look what happened to them- their culture was basically wiped out and the remnants were assimilated into the British's colony.

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We've lost countless cultures, traditions, and histories just because the people were made to conform with a larger and more powerful group. I don't see why we should be promoting that to happen now.

Not to say that you shouldn't respect other peoples' cultures while you're in their country, but you shouldn't have to lose your own just to do so.
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I'm not even sure how i worded it either, tbh.

But I would disagree with your statement that immigrants should conform to the culture they immigrate to. You can respect and participate in the new culture, but you shouldnt have to abandon your own in the process. Same applies to the Burqa.

You being from Australia would understand culture clash and how Immigration impacts culture from both sides. Particularly if you're Aboriginal. Look what happened to them- their culture was basically wiped out and the remnants were assimilated into the British's colony.
We've lost countless cultures, traditions, and histories just because the people were made to conform with a larger and more powerful group. I don't see why we should be promoting that to happen now.

Not to say that you shouldn't respect other peoples' cultures while you're in their country, but you shouldn't have to lose your own just to do so.
I don't want people to stop their culture. Wear your Burka around your house for all I care, but when you go out in public, I think it should be categorized the same as "indecent exposure" for SAFETY measures. Go ahead, wear your hijab! I don't mind! I can speak to you normally, and I know the identity of who I'm talking to. How could I know that I can trust a solicitor or security guard with only their eyes showing? Why would I even want to approach someone who I can't even see if they're a man or a woman? THEY are segregating themselves from US by doing so. In a way, they are pointing themselves out as being -alien- in a foreign place.

In European countries, women are allowed to go around topless especially in beaches- but in Canadian and American beaches.. they're SUPPOSED to cover up or they will get fined. Women in some European countries don't wax or shave, and yet it's deemed disgusting and socially unacceptable here. Do you think they should shave? Do you get grossed out when you see a woman walking around with hairy beastlike legs in a miniskirt?

If you're such an avid supporter in protecting cultures, then why do you allow this other stuff to happen... and yet raise hell over a damn Burka?

Don't pull the "I respect all cultures" bull because I haven't seen any other concerns about equality posted unless it's about GAYS, or ISLAMIC CULTURE- and it's honestly reminding me of a recent headline titled; "Is Gay the New Black?"

So back up and think about your OWN culture for a moment to see what others have oppressed YOU from, instead of vouching for the Burka-parade just so you can be "politically correct."
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