Which do you prefer? Ash or Red? Page 2

Started by KnightKGR December 21st, 2010 1:32 AM
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Age 30
Scotland
Seen May 12th, 2020
Posted February 6th, 2014
383 posts
14.2 Years
No, he's a Gary Stu because he never loses and he doesn't even need to try to win.
... Huh? Red certainly has lost battles before. Mew, Deoxys, the E4... Not to mention struggling to beat the gym leaders, Team Rocket, Deoxys in their rematch, Mewtwo, Guile Hideout... I can't even remember battles where he won easily, aside from Brock's trainers.

If anything, Red's not that much stronger than the other 'Dex holders. He's at least equal with Green.
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Ronin

Lazlo Woodbine’s apprentice

Male
Scotland, UK
Seen September 29th, 2013
Posted February 10th, 2011
81 posts
17.4 Years
Red is better by far in my opinion. Ash's character resets each season ruined the TV show in my eyes. Its so annoying watching him slowing getting a bit better through a region, then getting to the next region and forgetting basic type disadvantages. If Ash had won the Johto league and progressed as a trainer (or the show moved on a good few years following a different trainer with a few guest appearances from Ash as a master) then I might have picked Ash. But as it stands a story arch with character progression out strips rinse and repeat cycle of Ash.
Female
Earth
Seen May 28th, 2016
Posted April 11th, 2016
892 posts
14.6 Years
... Huh? Red certainly has lost battles before. Mew, Deoxys, the E4... Not to mention struggling to beat the gym leaders, Team Rocket, Deoxys in their rematch, Mewtwo, Guile Hideout... I can't even remember battles where he won easily, aside from Brock's trainers.

If anything, Red's not that much stronger than the other 'Dex holders. He's at least equal with Green.
Oh yeah, he lost battles against a legendary, another legendary and four highly skilled trainers ganging up on him. Of course he lost!
Most Gary Stus lose sometimes to prove to the audience they aren't Gary Stus but it's still obvious they are since they'll be put against a force that's way above their level.
If they were any true loses he would lose against Green or maybe a filler trainer.

And yes he struggles. Against trainers that are well known to be tough. It wouldn't even be that bad except he doesn't battle normal people, you know? Except for Brock's tournament which was easy for him.

Red starts out as the best trainer in Pallet Town and ends off being the best trainer in Kanto. He's never the underdog not even once and the only time we actually see him train was several years after he had become the Champion.

Lastly, maybe he's only as strong as other Pokedex holders. I don't know. For many we don't get to see their process to becoming great trainers ether. I could argue the rest are Mary Sues and Gary Stus as well but I would need to go reread more of the mangas before I could make such statements.
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alisaie

they/them
Seen March 14th, 2023
Posted February 3rd, 2022
13,598 posts
14.8 Years
Red. I can go on and on about why I adore Red so much (and why I don't think he's a Gary-Stu. At all.), but that would probably take all day of typing and everything. I'll just make this simple: Red hes personality, but he also has some flaws (even if people don't realize it). Think about it. He starts off as some egotistical kid who thinks he's the greatest Pokemon Trainer there is, just because he's the back in Pallet Town (note that Green wasn't really living in Pallet Town at the time). Then, through the process of the manga, he becomes a little more down-to-earth and learns through the mistakes he made. We see this in the GSC Arc, when he rejects the position of Viridian City Gym Leader.

... Okay, so that wasn't simple. But for that reason, and several other reasons like he's cuter than Ash are reasons as to why I like Red more than Ash. Manga!Red that is. (and as a side note: Red had to have lost to someone at the end of the Emerald Arc. Whether it had been on purpose or not, he had to have lost in order for Emerald to have gotten it.) They probably had made Red/Green's Battle in the FRLG Arc a tie, so fans don't complain 'Red should have won' and vice-versa.

And... at least Red doesn't go around meeting every legendary in existence.

... Anyways...

Game!Red vs Ash... Red still wins. In HGSS he's the Champion, something that Ash will probably never get in an actual Pokemon League. I mean, you'd think by now he would have at least one won of 'em. Only Minor ones.

I'm stopping now before I add anything else. PC's #1 Red Fangirl have marked her territory, yuptup!
Female
Earth
Seen May 28th, 2016
Posted April 11th, 2016
892 posts
14.6 Years
he doesn't expect that he can always win
Okay, how do know he never expects to win?
In fact, how do you know that Ash does expect to win everytime?
"Now that I have said it, it must be canon." -Little Kuriboh
"Though love may lose, kindness wins." - Science Fiction Novelist
"Destory all expectations." - Mortal Kombat DVD box
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - The Dungeon Master/Ragewar

Ronin

Lazlo Woodbine’s apprentice

Male
Scotland, UK
Seen September 29th, 2013
Posted February 10th, 2011
81 posts
17.4 Years
Okay, how do know he never expects to win?
That's not what she said "not always expecting to win" is different to "never expecting to win". Red does start out as over confident but he matures over the course of the story.

In fact, how do you know that Ash does expect to win everytime?
Seriously? really? He says it before every battle... I am literally watching the TV show as I'm typing and funnily enough he just said it as I typed that. Now the only real problem I have with the show is the fact his character resets each new region. This really limits his characters development, depth and consistency in the true analytical sense, not saying Red doesn't also have similar problems based on his environment as his higher winning rate brings its own limitations. Now both the manga and the show have faults and these faults will bug some people more than others (heck some people might even like them), it all depends on your personal taste. Basically just because you find the faults created by the style of story telling worse than Ash's doesn't make it an absolute truth (and vise versa ) and just because you don't notice, mind or if you enjoy certain aspects it doesn't mean those aspects can't be the exact same reason someone else dislikes it.

While your passion for the show is admirable trying to suggest that your experience in enjoyment has an effect on someone else's is going to go no where fast. You may find Reds win ratio that of a "Gary stu" but unless someone goes through the manga to calculate his actual win ratio and there is a consensus on what that ratio needs to be then it is going to be a personal interpretation and not applicable to others. However if you think that Ash doesn't always think he is always going to win then I suggest you re-watch a good few episodes.
Female
Earth
Seen May 28th, 2016
Posted April 11th, 2016
892 posts
14.6 Years
That's not what she said "not always expecting to win" is different to "never expecting to win".
That's what I mention. I just didn't phrase it right.



Seriously? really? He says it before every battle... I am literally watching the TV show as I'm typing and funnily enough he just said it as I typed that.
He does not say that before every battle and what else is he suppose to say? "I'm gonna lose."? A lot of characters like him use absolutes in their manner of speaking but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe he can lose. He only says "I'm gonna win this." and the like because he can't go into a battle believeing he won't.
"Now that I have said it, it must be canon." -Little Kuriboh
"Though love may lose, kindness wins." - Science Fiction Novelist
"Destory all expectations." - Mortal Kombat DVD box
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - The Dungeon Master/Ragewar

Ronin

Lazlo Woodbine’s apprentice

Male
Scotland, UK
Seen September 29th, 2013
Posted February 10th, 2011
81 posts
17.4 Years
He does not say that before every battle and what else is he suppose to say? "I'm gonna lose."? A lot of characters like him use absolutes in their manner of speaking but that doesn't mean he doesn't believe he can lose. He only says "I'm gonna win this." and the like because he can't go into a battle believeing he won't.
He basically does, or at least something to the effect. Going in to win a battle is different to predicting the end result, I used to do a good bit of competitive martial arts and most people (including myself) refused to predict the outcome as it clouded the mind with unnecessary thoughts but likewise everyone was there to win. However their are those that find it easier to push them selves if they do decide that the inevitable outcome of their victory exists. As for other things to say he could simple do his usual things "I wonder what Pokemon he/she uses", "I can't wait", "this is going to be tough" without the "I'm going to win", "prepare to lose" etc.

Now please note, I actually think that attitude suits Ash's character. I point these thing out because as I said "just because you find the faults created by the style of story telling worse than Ash's doesn't make it an absolute truth (and vise versa ) and just because you don't notice, mind or if you enjoy certain aspects it doesn't mean those aspects can't be the exact same reason someone else dislikes it."

You thinking that, that is a good or correct trait doesn't make it one and just because someone doesn't think it is a good trait doesn't make it that either. It simply makes it a good trait to you and a bad trait to the other person. Their is no right and wrong in what kind of characters you prefer from a media, nor in the reasons you think so since it is a "personal" preference.
Female
Earth
Seen May 28th, 2016
Posted April 11th, 2016
892 posts
14.6 Years
You thinking that, that is a good or correct trait doesn't make it one and just because someone doesn't think it is a good trait doesn't make it that either. It simply makes it a good trait to you and a bad trait to the other person. Their is no right and wrong in what kind of characters you prefer from a media, nor in the reasons you think so since it is a "personal" preference.
When did I indicated that my thinking behind it was like that?
I was simply trying to make sense of the other poster's absolutive perspective that Red thought in a particular manner that I have not witness in the series and the fact they was insinuating that Ash did not do this.

I know there are problems with both medias. The anime keeps using the same pattern and it's inconsistent. While the manga is too gamey and also keeps using the same pattern. (Actually, repeativeness is a problem in most of the Pokemon series.)
I'm just sticking up for the anime because I like it and I'm severly annoyed by those who bash it without giving any real reasoning behind it.
"Now that I have said it, it must be canon." -Little Kuriboh
"Though love may lose, kindness wins." - Science Fiction Novelist
"Destory all expectations." - Mortal Kombat DVD box
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - The Dungeon Master/Ragewar
Age 33
Female
Drinking milk somewhere.
Seen January 26th, 2011
Posted January 25th, 2011
8 posts
12.3 Years
Holy crap, Red all the way. I've seen some of the manga series with him in it (forgot the name of course XD), and I just greatly prefer his personality to Ash's. I used to think Ash was awesome, and I still do, but only in the earlier seasons of the anime. Once the end of Hoenn rolled around (new voice actor - yeah I'm one of those people), I was just like "NJFSNFIP WHAT IS THIS."

:<~

So yeah, Red for me. I'm still working my way through the manga, but it's fun so far. :D

Ronin

Lazlo Woodbine’s apprentice

Male
Scotland, UK
Seen September 29th, 2013
Posted February 10th, 2011
81 posts
17.4 Years
When did I indicated that my thinking behind it was like that?
I was simply trying to make sense of the other poster's absolutive perspective that Red thought in a particular manner that I have not witness in the series and the fact they was insinuating that Ash did not do this.
By arguing that Ash isn't confident all the time (which is a major characteristic of Ash) suggests that you don't see it as character flaw in him rather than thinking it doesn't exist (since it is a trait he has always had and is hard to miss).

She posted no absolute on Red's behalf, one was insinuated towards Ash (but not stated) however none was given for Red. All that is needed is one example of Red not saying he's going to win, I'm pretty sure there are more than a few examples if I remember rightly. I don't have my copies (I've recently moved and haven't got all my stuff moved in yet) but if I remember rightly he thought he was going to lose to Brock since he only had his Pikachu left (but was going to try to win anyway). As for Ash we can only know what he's thinking by what he says and he is always confident, which seems to be a trait of the majority of trainers in the series.

I'm just sticking up for the anime because I like it and I'm severly annoyed by those who bash it without giving any real reasoning behind it.
What reasoning does someone need for it to be real? If you are saying that real statement would have to meet an objective analysis then I would agree. To say that Ash is rubbish because he had a Charizard since Pallet town would be flawed as he didn't. However all your arguments in this thread have been in the subjective (except on Ash or Red being created first) and in the subjective I disagree that there ever can be a "real reason". For Ash thinking he can always win, since we are not generally privy to his thoughts we can only make a judgement based on his words. His words do suggest a great deal of confidence and this can be interpreted as him building himself up for a battle or as in him genuinely believing he can not lose. Both conclusions are personal interpretations of his speech and are therefore subjective.