Livewire

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13251415

The former Pope John Paul II was officially beautified by the Vatican, meaning he is confirmed to have worked a miracle, and is one step away from being canonized as a Saint, should he be attributed to more miracles in the future. But, should he even be considered in the first place, given events that transpired under his reign, including the sex scandals within the church? (1979-2005)

Discuss.

Steven

h e l p

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I am against this, I do not think he should be a saint.

The reason being his campaign against condoms being used against the spread of HIV and as contraceptive, which in turn led to a documented spike of AIDs among African Catholics and a spike of AIDs deaths (particularly in babies born with it.)

But I am not Catholic, so I really don't care beyond that.
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FreakyLocz14

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All being a saint means is that you are in heaven. According to Catholic theology, every person who is in heaven is a saint. Canonization is just the way that the Church knows if someone is in heaven or not. There are many more non-canonized saints.

I have no problem with him being a saint. He was a very spiritual man who helped many have a deeper relationship with God. That's what really counts.

Shining Raichu

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Oh Jesus. Pun intended.

I don't really care all THAT much, because to my mind becoming a Catholic saint is the number one way to show that you have lived your life wrong. But the idea that he is getting hero worship despite the horrible things that he allowed to happen just sickens me.
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lol, what was the "miracle"?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it
Among those at St Peter's Square is French nun Marie Simon-Pierre, who says she was cured of Parkinson's Disease.
Her apparently miraculous cure is part of the case for the beatification, the last stage before sainthood.
Oh, how very Christian. Don't mind me. I'll be on my way now.

Shining Raichu

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lol, what was the "miracle"?

EDIT: Nevermind, found it
Oh, how very Christian. Don't mind me. I'll be on my way now.
Haha, even if what she says is true.... placebo effect, anyone? Miracles, I ask you.

Captain Fabio

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Oh Jesus. Pun intended.

I don't really care all THAT much, because to my mind becoming a Catholic saint is the number one way to show that you have lived your life wrong. But the idea that he is getting hero worship despite the horrible things that he allowed to happen just sickens me.

What? How does that show that someone has lived their life wrong?

The reason that the Church is against contraception is because their believe is that sex should only be happen when you love someone and are also married. The reason for the spike in HIV was being of people only listening to half of what the Church teaches. If they had waited till they were married, that spike MIGHT NOT have happened. I am not saying it wouldn't, but it just seems strange to me that some people listen to the Church so religiously but ignore the 'no sex before marriage' believe. But that is just my opinion on the matter.

I don't really know how I feel about him being beautified if I am honest.

Shining Raichu

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What? How does that show that someone has lived their life wrong?

That's just my opinion, it's incredibly subjective lol. My goal in life is to have the Westboro Baptist Church picket my funeral, because that's how I'll know I truly lived my life the right way. I was just extrapolating that to the other end of the spectrum.

Timbjerr

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That's just my opinion, it's incredibly subjective lol. My goal in life is to have the Westboro Baptist Church picket my funeral, because that's how I'll know I truly lived my life the right way. I was just extrapolating that to the other end of the spectrum.
Ignoring the blatant antitheism I've come to expect from you, equating Westboro Baptist to the Roman Catholic Church? That's like comparing an obnoxious internet troll to a well-meaning, but ineffectual moderator wannabe. :/

I honestly can't say much on John Paul II, but he was definitely one of the most well-loved popes in recent history (especially compared to Pope Sidius XVI) and one of the greatest humanitarians of our generation. Although, I do think that the Vatican is getting a little too loose with the requirements for sainthood these day. XD

Shining Raichu

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Ignoring the blatant antitheism I've come to expect from you, equating Westboro Baptist to the Roman Catholic Church? That's like comparing an obnoxious internet troll to a well-meaning, but ineffectual moderator wannabe. :/
Nice spin, you should work for Fox News.

Anyway on-topic, my problem with this isn't the sainthood part. It's completely expected that the Catholic Church would canonise its saints by sweeping any criticism or wrongdoing under the rug. To me being a saint means nothing. What worries me is that, as Vendak said, history will be somewhat rewritten and he'll be remembered not only by Catholics but also by the public at large who don't bother to research as, well, a saint.

Hikamaru

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Intresting... Pope John Paul II died on my brother's birthday.

I would really like him to be a saint, last year Australia had its first saint canonised - Mary MacKillop aka Saint Mary of the Cross.

Back to John Paul II, a woman claimed he cured her of Parkinson's Disease.
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The problem with Catholicism is this adherence to strict dogma and ritualism. If you want to practice religion, you shouldn't be wrapped up in minutiae; genuflection, sainthood, all of those are unnecessary distractions.
They aren't distractions, they're vital tools of the faith. Stripped of holy ritual, sacrifice, and sacraments, it may as well just be a gathering to meditate. These things are part of the religion, and always will be.
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I have no problem with him being a saint. He was a very spiritual man who helped many have a deeper relationship with God. That's what really counts.
I agree with this. If the Church believes he is a saint, then why not so?

Then again that's just me sympathizing as a Roman Catholic. :x
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I'm just really surprised that he's going to turn into a saint. Pope John Paul II has always have a special meaning to me since I am named after me. Iirc in religion studies, isn't being beautified takes place in about 50 or so years? I remember that to be declared a saint, they need to do background checks and such. heck, Mother Theresa isn't even declared a saint and she died centuries ago. Though that's just my 2 cents, and I could be wrong since I haven't had religion studies since elementary school.
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FreakyLocz14

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I agree with this. If the Church believes he is a saint, then why not so?

Then again that's just me sympathizing as a Roman Catholic. :x
Well, being a saint is merely recognition that he is in Heaven. Everybody in Heaven is a technically a saint; not just those that are canonized by the Church. According to Christian theology, how good or bad of a person doesn't matter in where you go in the afterlife. Jesus Christ died for our sins so that all those who believe in him will be saved. Every human being is a sinner, so under that standard, we'd all burn in Hell.
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Well, being a saint is merely recognition that he is in Heaven. Everybody in Heaven is a technically a saint; not just those that are canonized by the Church. According to Christian theology, how good or bad of a person doesn't matter in where you go in the afterlife. Jesus Christ died for our sins so that all those who believe in him will be saved. Every human being is a sinner, so under that standard, we'd all burn in Hell.
Sounds like a get out of jail free card so people can be as bad as they feel to me, but whatever.

FreakyLocz14

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Sounds like a get out of jail free card so people can be as bad as they feel to me, but whatever.
Where you go after your earthly life is faith-based, not works-based. Everybody is a sinner. Nobody on this planet has never sinned. Thus, everybody on this planet deserves to go to Hell unless all of their sins are forgiven by accepting Christ.

That's pretty much how it goes.

Timbjerr

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Where you go after your earthly life is faith-based, not works-based. Everybody is a sinner. Nobody on this planet has never sinned. Thus, everybody on this planet deserves to go to Hell unless all of their sins are forgiven by accepting Christ.

That's pretty much how it goes.
I was raised Catholic and all, but I was never taught this in RE. That's the kind of stuff I'd hear from the fundies in Westboro Baptist.

I've always been taught that our afterlife is works-based. Yeah, we're all sinners, but regular reconciliation for minute things keeps you under the threshold of going to Hell. XD

FreakyLocz14

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I was raised Catholic and all, but I was never taught this in RE. That's the kind of stuff I'd hear from the fundies in Westboro Baptist.

I've always been taught that our afterlife is works-based. Yeah, we're all sinners, but regular reconciliation for minute things keeps you under the threshold of going to Hell. XD
Romans 3:23-24 says "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." This affirms that no human being can enter into Heaven without Jesus Christ, that no person is deserves to go to Heaven, and that Christ's offer of salvation is free to all who accept it. Jesus himself even said "“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

If Westboro really believed that, then homosexuals would not go to Hell (as they claim) as long as they accept Christ. They obviously don't hold that view.

I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate; though, so lets end that discussion there.

Melody

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Honestly, I'm not catholic...so I don't care if he is a saint or not in the religious sense.

Logically speaking, I do not believe he should be penalized for the actions of his underlings, he was not corrupt. I'm sure there were implications he was avoiding when he didn't respond to those allegations. I don't doubt that the church has already thoroughly investigated each and every claim of abuse. In cases they took little or no action, I believe they probably knew that no such abuse ever occurred. I'm sure that every accused priest who got transferred was probably transferred because those people wouldn't be able to believe in that person again, regardless of what the Church said about their innocence. Remember how badly the media demonized them.

I believe that yes, perhaps a few children DID get abused by a rogue priest. I also believe that at least a simple majority (51%) of those children/people who came forward were faking it. The motivation to do such a thing to a priest of the church, especially if those people had their own personal vendettas against them is easy enough to believe, especially if the priest has done it before even if the priest was disciplined and rehabilitated by the church itself, or submitted for criminal punishment if it could not.

I also know for a fact that the media itself made more of a demon of the Catholic Church than was strictly necessary, we all know the media is full of capitalist people who are prone to do such things because it draws viewers and brings in advertisement revenue. The media outlets which reported these things was the root of the problem in my opinion, not the Pope himself.

Now, as for the criteria for Sainthood, I believe that's fair enough to be honest. I don't believe that those criteria have changed in the last century to be honest. If you can prove me wrong on this one then do so, but it'll have to be a publication straight from the Vatican saying so, or one directly citing such a document.