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  #1301    
Old October 29th, 2011 (8:03 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Kelly View Post
I agree it isn't right, but there's enough of a difference to me between "well-thought-out, rage-inducing" hate and "oh I'm different than you and I don't like you I guess" hate. Those I feel will eventually accept or tolerate homosexuality, given enough time and appropriate exposure.
Yes, this, because if you don't actually hate homo/transsexuals as people, then it's only a narrow matter of time till you meet one and your opinion is changed almost instantly. These people I am perfectly willing to work patiently with.
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#077: Ponyta - The Fire Horse Pokémon
Fire ~ Field eggs
3'03" ~ 66.1lbs ~ 50/50

Its hooves are 10 times harder
than diamonds. It can trample
anything completely flat in moments.

Abilities: Run Away or Flash Fire or Flame Body
Moves: Growl, Flame Wheel, Stomp, Agility
Locations: Pokémon Mansion

Cry

Other names:

jp: ポニータ (Ponyta)
de: Ponita
fr: Ponyta
cn: 小火馬 (Xiǎohuǒmǎ)



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  #1302    
Old October 29th, 2011 (8:35 AM).
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    Okay so here are some rights that some people oppose:

    - same-sex marriage
    - same-sex adoption/parental rights
    - same-sex employment rights (in several states you can fire a gay person based on sexuality without consequence)

    Okay, there is a difference between neutrality or indifference with these issues and active opposition. If you do not support nor do you oppose the above issues, then there is not any stance on the issue, and I would not consider that hate, maybe a bit of ignorance to what the issues entail. But when you are actively oppositional to these rights I believe that there could be a level of hate, and at the the very least, a level of prejudice/intolerance. I really would not want to be friends with anyone who actively opposes these rights. The argument I dislike most as a response to that is "just because someone doesn't follow the same beliefs that you do..." Well, the thing is if I opposed interracial marriage, believed that they should not be able to marry, adopt, or feel free of discrimination at their job, I think that an interracial couple should have the right to feel like I am taking away their liberties/quality of life, and they would have every right to not associate with me.
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      #1303    
    Old October 29th, 2011 (9:26 AM).
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    Hate is just a high level of intolerance and with people who oppose LGBT rights there is certainly intolerance there. That's why I don't want to say that they have hatred, but I also don't rule out it's possible. Call it a small amount of hate, but I'd say it's very likely there in most people.
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      #1304    
    Old October 29th, 2011 (7:41 PM).
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    Do you think that we should offer the HIV morning after pill at our Student Health Center? My constituents are asking me to introduce legislation that would do just that.

    This is what I'm talking about:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-exposure_prophylaxis
      #1305    
    Old October 29th, 2011 (8:13 PM).
    -ty-'s Avatar
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
      Do you think that we should offer the HIV morning after pill at our Student Health Center? My constituents are asking me to introduce legislation that would do just that.

      This is what I'm talking about:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-exposure_prophylaxis
      On one hand, you will have some people argue that it will encourage unsafe-sex/sex with positive partners. On the other hand, you will have people say that it will decrease the student's chances of contracting HIV from sex.

      I would have to say that if a student has had sex with a person who is HIV+, then the HIV morning after pill should be provided to the student. Condoms rip, bad choices are made, and many other factors come into play, the pill, I think will help the student and the spread of HIV.
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        #1306    
      Old October 29th, 2011 (9:48 PM).
      Ineffable~'s Avatar
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by -ty- View Post
      On one hand, you will have some people argue that it will encourage unsafe-sex/sex with positive partners. On the other hand, you will have people say that it will decrease the student's chances of contracting HIV from sex.

      I would have to say that if a student has had sex with a person who is HIV+, then the HIV morning after pill should be provided to the student. Condoms rip, bad choices are made, and many other factors come into play, the pill, I think will help the student and the spread of HIV.
      Yeah, I would say definitely provide the pill. It's better safe than sorry, and it's not at all useful to say "well, you shouldn't have had unprotected sex in the first place" when someone could be contracting an incurable, deadly disease here.
      Honestly I didn't know something like this existed before but it's important that it be available to everyone.
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      #077: Ponyta - The Fire Horse Pokémon
      Fire ~ Field eggs
      3'03" ~ 66.1lbs ~ 50/50

      Its hooves are 10 times harder
      than diamonds. It can trample
      anything completely flat in moments.

      Abilities: Run Away or Flash Fire or Flame Body
      Moves: Growl, Flame Wheel, Stomp, Agility
      Locations: Pokémon Mansion

      Cry

      Other names:

      jp: ポニータ (Ponyta)
      de: Ponita
      fr: Ponyta
      cn: 小火馬 (Xiǎohuǒmǎ)


        #1307    
      Old October 29th, 2011 (9:56 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Ineffable~ View Post

      Yeah, I would say definitely provide the pill. It's better safe than sorry, and it's not at all useful to say "well, you shouldn't have had unprotected sex in the first place" when someone could be contracting an incurable, deadly disease here.
      Honestly I didn't know something like this existed before but it's important that it be available to everyone.
      The biggest hurdle in garnering support is always cost, though.
        #1308    
      Old October 29th, 2011 (11:07 PM). Edited October 29th, 2011 by Shining Raichu.
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      Welcome Charlie Kelly!! It's good to have new members, they're coming less frequently now

      Do you think that all people who oppose all or certain LGBT rights/liberties inherently hate LGBT people?

      I'm going to say yes. I tend to see LGBT issues more black and white than most people do, so I'd definitely say that they do. What other reason is there? Intolerance, hate, it's all the same thing. I honestly think that if people are so against a concept that they find themselves acting, speaking or thinking against the rights of the people who practice that concept, then there is of course a level of hate or dislike there. There are things people have said on this issue that I'm going to respond to:

      1 - The religious sentiment of "hate the sin, love the sinner" - I think this is one of Christianity's most effective cop-outs because in essence it's a message of peace. But it's designed, in my opinion, to keep criticism of the religion at bay. If you look at it, what it's really saying is "we hate who you are and what you do, but we still love you in spite of that". I honestly don't buy it for a second. You don't love somebody if you hate a large intrinsic part of who they are. The religion itself would never vote in favour of gay rights, so basically what it's doing is patting us on our heads and telling us it's all going to be okay while screwing us behind our backs. I think it's one of the most insidious messages religion puts out there and the implications of it are confusing to the point of potential harm. I'd prefer it if they were just honest rather than trying to appease us for the sake of their public image.

      2 - The "upbringing" excuse - This is one thing I really can't stand about people who are against LGBT rights. What it implies when that is said is that because that's how you were brought up, it's automatically OK. It's a cop-out; it's something to fall back on. The way you were brought up, in my opinion, is no excuse for the way you think now. Surely it's a factor, but everybody is capable of independent thought and therefore nobody has an excuse to be a mouthpiece for the views of their parents. If you hate the LGBT community or don't support their rights, you're going to have to do better than "that's the way I was raised", I'm afraid. I was raised with the intolerant view that foreigners should go back to their own countries and stay the hell away from Australia, but that's certainly not what I believe now.
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        #1309    
      Old October 29th, 2011 (11:28 PM).
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      How do you feel about this guy saying bullying is good?
        #1310    
      Old October 30th, 2011 (7:42 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
      Do you think that all people who oppose all or certain LGBT rights/liberties inherently hate LGBT people?

      I'm going to say yes. I tend to see LGBT issues more black and white than most people do, so I'd definitely say that they do. What other reason is there? Intolerance, hate, it's all the same thing. I honestly think that if people are so against a concept that they find themselves acting, speaking or thinking against the rights of the people who practice that concept, then there is of course a level of hate or dislike there. There are things people have said on this issue that I'm going to respond to:

      1 - The religious sentiment of "hate the sin, love the sinner" - I think this is one of Christianity's most effective cop-outs because in essence it's a message of peace. But it's designed, in my opinion, to keep criticism of the religion at bay. If you look at it, what it's really saying is "we hate who you are and what you do, but we still love you in spite of that". I honestly don't buy it for a second. You don't love somebody if you hate a large intrinsic part of who they are. The religion itself would never vote in favour of gay rights, so basically what it's doing is patting us on our heads and telling us it's all going to be okay while screwing us behind our backs. I think it's one of the most insidious messages religion puts out there and the implications of it are confusing to the point of potential harm. I'd prefer it if they were just honest rather than trying to appease us for the sake of their public image.
      I just wanna ask, do you think this about ALL Christians? Because I can vouch at least for the ELCA that they don't actually follow "Love the sinner, Hate the sin, so what you are saying wouldn't apply to them.

      ANd FreakyLocz, I haven't had a chance to watch your video. When I do, I might have a comment.
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        #1311    
      Old October 30th, 2011 (8:04 AM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
      Welcome Charlie Kelly!! It's good to have new members, they're coming less frequently now :)

      Do you think that all people who oppose all or certain LGBT rights/liberties inherently hate LGBT people?

      I'm going to say yes. I tend to see LGBT issues more black and white than most people do, so I'd definitely say that they do. What other reason is there? Intolerance, hate, it's all the same thing. I honestly think that if people are so against a concept that they find themselves acting, speaking or thinking against the rights of the people who practice that concept, then there is of course a level of hate or dislike there. There are things people have said on this issue that I'm going to respond to:

      1 - The religious sentiment of "hate the sin, love the sinner" - I think this is one of Christianity's most effective cop-outs because in essence it's a message of peace. But it's designed, in my opinion, to keep criticism of the religion at bay. If you look at it, what it's really saying is "we hate who you are and what you do, but we still love you in spite of that". I honestly don't buy it for a second. You don't love somebody if you hate a large intrinsic part of who they are. The religion itself would never vote in favour of gay rights, so basically what it's doing is patting us on our heads and telling us it's all going to be okay while screwing us behind our backs. I think it's one of the most insidious messages religion puts out there and the implications of it are confusing to the point of potential harm. I'd prefer it if they were just honest rather than trying to appease us for the sake of their public image.
      I'm feeling pretty black and white this morning myself.

      While I do believe that it's possible (and even common) to love someone while hating something they do, I have to agree with Raichu. It always feels like a cop-out when someone uses this line. It's kind of bothersome for some outside person to dissect you like that. They say "Oh, you are separate from your 'sin'" - as if it isn't an intrinsic part of you. Even if it really isn't a big part of who you are, who is someone else to presume that?

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
      2 - The "upbringing" excuse - This is one thing I really can't stand about people who are against LGBT rights. What it implies when that is said is that because that's how you were brought up, it's automatically OK. It's a cop-out; it's something to fall back on. The way you were brought up, in my opinion, is no excuse for the way you think now. Surely it's a factor, but everybody is capable of independent thought and therefore nobody has an excuse to be a mouthpiece for the views of their parents. If you hate the LGBT community or don't support their rights, you're going to have to do better than "that's the way I was raised", I'm afraid. I was raised with the intolerant view that foreigners should go back to their own countries and stay the hell away from Australia, but that's certainly not what I believe now.
      It's an excuse not to think. It's like saying "Well, I could listen to your argument on this and try to come up with a thoughtful conclusion, or I could just go with what I already feel." If someone were to say "I've thought about this a lot and based on everything I've read and heard I've concluded that I can't be for LGBT rights." then that would be something a whole lot better. But no one does that because then they *gasp* might have to explain their reasoning and put their conclusions up to the spotlight. If you say "It's how I was raised" it's like we somehow aren't allowed to challenge that - or that it's something a person can't change - or even worse, that it's admittedly prejudiced and not logical and that no logical arguments can or should be used in trying to get someone to change their mind.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
      How do you feel about this guy saying bullying is good?
      I don't buy that bullying is a part of life and that we should just deal with it. We're supposed to accept something bad because it's common? That's stupid. Sexual assault and rape are quite common despite that we know they're bad and don't say "well, that's the way things are." I know there's a vast difference in severity between rape and bullying, but the underlying principle is (or should be) the same.
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        #1312    
      Old October 30th, 2011 (8:16 AM).
      -ty-'s Avatar
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post


        I just wanna ask, do you think this about ALL Christians? Because I can vouch at least for the ELCA that they don't actually follow "Love the sinner, Hate the sin, so what you are saying wouldn't apply to them.

        ANd FreakyLocz, I haven't had a chance to watch your video. When I do, I might have a comment.
        No, I think he was talking about those who use religion as a way to justify opposition to gay rights.

        People literally used religion to justify opposition to liberating slaves because the bible never condemned slavery, and it dictates that "slaves obey masters whether they be kind or cruel." So slave-owners condemned runaway slaves for breaking the religious law. Like his example, using inappropriately using religion to justify oppression equivocates hate/intolerance. However, not all Christians inappropriately use religion to oppress others.

        Also, the "love the sinner" thing doesn't really apply either. For example, you would not actively oppose job anti-discrimination protection for a gay person if you "loved" them. I mean, look at Alqueda, they kill tons of people and oppress women, yet their religious text is similar to Christianity.
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          #1313    
        Old October 30th, 2011 (8:33 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by FreakyLocz14 View Post
        How do you feel about this guy saying bullying is good?
        Umm, wow. I almost have no comment. o.o Partially because I'm kind of weirded out, and also partially because I only understood 40% of what he said.

        Anyway, no obviously I don't think bullying is okay. It may be normal and a part of life, however that does not make it okay and does not place the burden on the victim alone to deal with it.
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        #077: Ponyta - The Fire Horse Pokémon
        Fire ~ Field eggs
        3'03" ~ 66.1lbs ~ 50/50

        Its hooves are 10 times harder
        than diamonds. It can trample
        anything completely flat in moments.

        Abilities: Run Away or Flash Fire or Flame Body
        Moves: Growl, Flame Wheel, Stomp, Agility
        Locations: Pokémon Mansion

        Cry

        Other names:

        jp: ポニータ (Ponyta)
        de: Ponita
        fr: Ponyta
        cn: 小火馬 (Xiǎohuǒmǎ)


          #1314    
        Old October 31st, 2011 (4:00 AM).
        Shining Raichu's Avatar
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post


        I just wanna ask, do you think this about ALL Christians? Because I can vouch at least for the ELCA that they don't actually follow "Love the sinner, Hate the sin, so what you are saying wouldn't apply to them.
        Yeah, as ty said, I was just referring to the people that do follow the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' school of thought.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Scarf
        longpost
        Sometimes, my dear - just sometimes - it feels like we are the same person XD
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          #1315    
        Old October 31st, 2011 (4:50 AM).
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          Put me down in support
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            #1316    
          Old October 31st, 2011 (5:15 AM).
          Shining Raichu's Avatar
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          Welcome, Articunown, to both PC and the LGBTetc Club! Your name's been added to the list

          Also this was on a current affairs show in Australia tonight. It was a nice story but in my opinion they played up the gay angle a little too much and the whole story had that condescending "Well isn't that nice. Good for them!" feel to it.
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            #1317    
          Old October 31st, 2011 (7:34 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
          Sometimes, my dear - just sometimes - it feels like we are the same person XD
          My dear sir, I believe we are in agreement on this.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
          Also this was on a current affairs show in Australia tonight. It was a nice story but in my opinion they played up the gay angle a little too much and the whole story had that condescending "Well isn't that nice. Good for them!" feel to it.
          Well, good for them? I dunno. Surrogacy kind of weirds me out, personally. And dayum. $130,000 to do everything? If you're going to go through with all the trouble of flying to India to get babies then maybe you ought to adopt some already there who need homes.
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            #1318    
          Old October 31st, 2011 (7:44 AM).
          Ineffable~'s Avatar
          Ineffable~ Ineffable~ is offline
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
          Also this was on a current affairs show in Australia tonight. It was a nice story but in my opinion they played up the gay angle a little too much and the whole story had that condescending "Well isn't that nice. Good for them!" feel to it.
          Sounds nice. I didn't feel the whole condescending thing but I like the story. I'm not all that thrilled about surrogacy but, if it makes them happy~

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
          Well, good for them? I dunno. Surrogacy kind of weirds me out, personally. And dayum. $130,000 to do everything? If you're going to go through with all the trouble of flying to India to get babies then maybe you ought to adopt some already there who need homes.
          Agreed. Honestly it makes it difficult for me to be sincerely happy for them. @_@
          __________________

          #077: Ponyta - The Fire Horse Pokémon
          Fire ~ Field eggs
          3'03" ~ 66.1lbs ~ 50/50

          Its hooves are 10 times harder
          than diamonds. It can trample
          anything completely flat in moments.

          Abilities: Run Away or Flash Fire or Flame Body
          Moves: Growl, Flame Wheel, Stomp, Agility
          Locations: Pokémon Mansion

          Cry

          Other names:

          jp: ポニータ (Ponyta)
          de: Ponita
          fr: Ponyta
          cn: 小火馬 (Xiǎohuǒmǎ)


            #1319    
          Old October 31st, 2011 (4:28 PM).
          Shining Raichu's Avatar
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          Oh, I didn't mean the article I linked had the condescending energy, I meant the story they had about it on the current affairs show on TV lol
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            #1320    
          Old November 1st, 2011 (10:18 PM).
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            The thread died for a whole day

            Anyways, I will revive it with a question:

            Is it enough to trust someone before sex? Do you think that is appropriate or not to ask a potential sexual partner for STD/HIV testing results?
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              #1321    
            Old November 1st, 2011 (10:34 PM).
            Charlie Kelly Charlie Kelly is offline
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              Quote:
              Is it enough to trust someone before sex? Do you think that is appropriate or not to ask a potential sexual partner for STD/HIV testing results?
              I would say that asking for paperwork is going a step too far, but just asking is fine in my book. Of course, if you're in a committed relationship and want to have unprotected sex, then I would say you should both go in and get tested at the same time.
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                #1322    
              Old November 1st, 2011 (11:03 PM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by -ty- View Post
              Is it enough to trust someone before sex? Do you think that is appropriate or not to ask a potential sexual partner for STD/HIV testing results?
              Pretty much what Charlie said. Everyone has the right to be sure they're not gonna catch something.

              I will help revive it with moar questions!

              Here is a very simple question for the gay/bi/etc. people:

              What was the first time you recall being attracted to the same sex? How did it make you feel?

              And for our small amount of trans and genderqueer peeps:

              What was the first time you recall clearly identifying as not your birth gender?

              Basically when did y'all find out you weren't like the other boys & girls :3

              (Straight Allies can just say their early reactions to LGBT stuff I guess.)
              __________________

              #077: Ponyta - The Fire Horse Pokémon
              Fire ~ Field eggs
              3'03" ~ 66.1lbs ~ 50/50

              Its hooves are 10 times harder
              than diamonds. It can trample
              anything completely flat in moments.

              Abilities: Run Away or Flash Fire or Flame Body
              Moves: Growl, Flame Wheel, Stomp, Agility
              Locations: Pokémon Mansion

              Cry

              Other names:

              jp: ポニータ (Ponyta)
              de: Ponita
              fr: Ponyta
              cn: 小火馬 (Xiǎohuǒmǎ)


                #1323    
              Old November 1st, 2011 (11:33 PM). Edited November 1st, 2011 by TornZero.
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                Is it enough to trust someone before sex? Do you think that is appropriate or not to ask a potential sexual partner for STD/HIV testing results?

                I wouldn't go to the extremes of needing paperwork, but more like assurance that they're clean. Everyone deserves to be informed about their potential partner's health. However, if I can't be fully sure, I would go in and be tested along with them. (Though I would hate being diseased myself when I'm still a virgin. o_o)

                What was the first time you recall being attracted to the same sex? How did it make you feel?

                I believe most of my physical attraction comes from my imagination since I can find it pleasurable in thought being stimulated by someone of either sex, so... yeah, I can't really answer this very accurately past "after puberty hit me."

                What was the first time you recall clearly identifying as not your birth gender?

                Around the time I was in primary school (so between six and eight years old), where I MUCH more easily made friends with girls than I did with the boys around me (and I still do); getting told I was different from the girls and should be making friends with boys just made me feel extremely out of place.
                With the unnecessary berating from my family (mostly mother and older brother) about me being girly, I started asking myself, "Why am I a boy anyways?"

                The only ways I ever find myself "identifying" with my birth gender are enjoying the physical advantage (although only slight in my case except for some strenuous exceptions) that I wouldn't have as a girl, and the annoying off-day I just feel more "manly".
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                  #1324    
                Old November 2nd, 2011 (7:19 AM).
                -Jared-'s Avatar
                -Jared- -Jared- is offline
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                Is it enough to trust someone before sex? Do you think that is appropriate or not to ask a potential sexual partner for STD/HIV testing results?
                Well, I am personally a fairly paranoid person, so if my partner knew that about me, hopefully he wouldn't find it weird to go get tested just for my sake. I wouldn't find it weird at all if he asked me, so I would hope he would feel the same way for my sake. :\

                What was the first time you recall being attracted to the same sex? How did it make you feel?
                Back in 8th grade, for me. My 8th grade class went on a trip to a water park, so it was my first encounter, really, seeing others guys without shirts on, so I was like "Huh. Me likey." xD At the time, I knew I was supposed to find girls attractive, but i figured that maybe it was normal to find guys attractive as well, we just weren't supposed to say so. So I just figured I would wait and see when I would find a girl I was attracted to. It never happened. :\
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                  #1325    
                Old November 2nd, 2011 (9:59 AM).
                -ty-'s Avatar
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                  What was the first time you recall being attracted to the same sex? How did it make you feel?
                  Wow it seems like everyone knew about their sexuality much later than I did; I was like in 4th grade when I knew I was attracted to the same sex. Although I never came out until I was 18. At the time, I was confused since I never heard of the concept of homosexuality, and barely understood the concept of sex.

                  As far as STD's go, I do not even know if my ex was honest or not; he ended up lying about everything. Although there was protection, I just don't know for sure.

                  In the future, I will not have any physical relationship(beyond kissing/cuddling) with someone until I know for sure that he is the right guy. But I think that it would be fair to ask if we both got checked out at a clinic to confirm STD's. I think it would be highly unfair to ask your partner to get tested, and not get tested yourself.
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