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  #1901    
Old January 10th, 2012 (11:43 AM).
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Is it okay that the link QK posted kinda frustrates me? I mean, I know that it's one of those pieces that are meant to be read by the religious folks who have a problem with gay people and that it's going to have to use their language to help them. I accept that even if I don't like it. But some of the stuff on #4 really bugged me. Like comparing homosexuality to a mental disorder. I know that's not what it was saying, but it makes a parallel and it's probably easy to get the message distorted. And the line: "To put it simply, the gay man's brain was shaped the way a straight woman's brain is, whereas a gay woman's brain was shaped the way a straight man's is." - that's reinforcing the idea that a gay man is something like a "woman in a man's body." That's not even a good description of a trans person, let alone a gay person.

Okay, rant over.
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Old January 10th, 2012 (12:25 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
Is it okay that the link QK posted kinda frustrates me? I mean, I know that it's one of those pieces that are meant to be read by the religious folks who have a problem with gay people and that it's going to have to use their language to help them. I accept that even if I don't like it. But some of the stuff on #4 really bugged me. Like comparing homosexuality to a mental disorder. I know that's not what it was saying, but it makes a parallel and it's probably easy to get the message distorted. And the line: "To put it simply, the gay man's brain was shaped the way a straight woman's brain is, whereas a gay woman's brain was shaped the way a straight man's is." - that's reinforcing the idea that a gay man is something like a "woman in a man's body." That's not even a good description of a trans person, let alone a gay person.

Okay, rant over.
[butting in this convo] I don't know all about it, definitely not. But I know that love is all about chemicals in the brain, and pheromones which mainly attract people to eachother. The male brain responds to copulin which are female pheromones, and vice versa does the female brain respond to androstenone which are male pheromones. In this case, considering homosexuality,
Quote:
"To put it simply, the gay man's brain was shaped the way a straight woman's brain is, whereas a gay woman's brain was shaped the way a straight man's is."
this doesn't sound that strange. It might have been worded strangely, but I don't think at all that it is that strange of a claim.
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  #1903    
Old January 10th, 2012 (12:51 PM).
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    :/ I don't think people should focus on "If you're born that way or if you're conditioned that way" sort of thing. Nor should people focus on a few phrases in a book written well over 1000 years ago. Seriously the bible is a massive text and if all people are gonna take from it is "homosexuality is wrong" then I really think they need to revisit what the bible actually stands for.

    No offense but I rather people spend money researching cures for diseases rather than these studies. People who are hating are just going to keep hating regardless of scientific evidence because they already have their own adgendas. Forget em!

    Just like who you want to like and be done with it : |.. Don't be judgin'! That's what I say!
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      #1904    
    Old January 10th, 2012 (2:07 PM).
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    Scientifically speaking, that's only the result of one study and hence not incredibly reliable. I know there have been studies of brain activity that supposedly show lesbian women think more like a man, and gay men more like a woman, but still I don't think the evidence is overwhelming. There are millions of homosexual men and women all over the world, and I don't think the results of a few small tests really proves anything. A scientific study is more reliable when you have representative sample, and that would be very hard, probably close to impossible, to get.

    And you kind of just have too look around to know there are feminine lesbians and masculine gays. If you're a very masculine or feminine person I don't think your brain could show the opposite. Unless I'm missing something.

    Not that I think it particularly matters. Whether or not it's proven scientifically that I think like a woman (although in my case that's probably at least partly true!) I'm not not going to change the way I act or who I am.
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    Old January 10th, 2012 (2:15 PM).
    Liliana Vess Liliana Vess is offline
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    I don't get why religion is such a big deal in the gay community. Coming from a religious school I had to study Catholicism and from what I pulled away from it only god is allowed to judge people so if being gay is a sin people who are homophobic and are judging gay people as sinners are just as bad as gay people themselves.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
    Um... what. OK I know this is meant to be a positive thing, but really... what? "You don't know if they've had sex so you can't judge them"? There's something about that that really doesn't sit right with me. It's kind of not good enough lol. If anything it's more detrimental to the message we're trying to send because it sort of says "if you know for a fact that they've had sex, well judge away!"

    The rest of it is fine, but this point really bothers me.
    I think what they were trying to say was don't judge them on assumptions. There was a guy at my secondary school who use to judge "gay" people a lot whilst walking through town even though the majority were just good straight friends who had a feminine look. It's pretty much the same thing, they didn't have any evidence that the gay couple had sex just the same as how the person I knew didn't have any evidence that the two people walking around doing their business were gay at all.
      #1906    
    Old January 10th, 2012 (6:14 PM).
    Blade_of_darkness Blade_of_darkness is offline
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        #1907    
      Old January 10th, 2012 (8:51 PM).
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      Like I said to Andy a bit ago over irc, I apologize on behalf of Catholicism.
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        #1908    
      Old January 11th, 2012 (2:46 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
        Like I said to Andy a bit ago over irc, I apologize on behalf of Catholicism.
        well this is a bit of a downer.
        technically, he is also criticizing single moms and dads because, "apparently", a child should be brought up with the traditional tandem -- the mother and the father.
        also, deeply disappointed because a professor i HIGHLY respect actually agrees with the Pope's views here. of course, this doesn't make him any less of a good teacher, but still... :-(
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          #1909    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (2:48 AM).
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        Welcome, Blade_of_darkness! I'm glad you decided to join us

        @Toujours' article, I have never felt more disgusted and never more correct in my wariness of Catholicism and of religion in general. One quote I found rather hilarious was this:

        Quote:
        One leading opponent of gay marriage in the United States is New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, whom the pope will elevate to cardinal next month.
        I have to wonder why he's being elevated to cardinal. Is it perhaps that he has done so well in his fight against equality that he has earned a promotion?

        Quote:
        Dolan fought against gay marriage before it became legal in New York state last June, and in September he sent a letter to President Barack Obama criticizing his administration's decision not to support a federal ban on gay marriage.In that letter Dolan, who holds the powerful post of president of the U.S. Bishops Conference, said such a policy could "precipitate a national conflict between church and state of enormous proportions."

        Yep, that was exactly the reason. I love how the Catholic Church works lol.


        Quote:
        Some Churches that have allowed gay marriage, women priests, gay clergy and gay bishops have been losing members to Catholicism, and the Vatican has taken steps to facilitate their conversion.

        So basically it has become the dumping ground of the bigots who refuse to evolve with their own religions. One giant exclusive club for those who hate under the guise of love.
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          #1910    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (4:55 AM).
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        I've never understood this idea that needing a "functioning family unit" is an opposition to gay marriage, or against gay couples having children. Parents get divorced quite often these days, and I'm sure most of those children develop fine, I mean my parents are divorced and that's never caused me any kind of problems. Moreover, people argue that you need both a mother and father figure. Why? Single parents often raise children alone (I have friends testament to this) and the lack of male or female influence doesn't necessarily affect them.
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          #1911    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (7:31 AM).
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        -sigh- You know, I can see why gay Christians become atheists. :\ There's just no feeling welcome anywhere. ;__; And it's **** like this that made me question my Christianity growing up. ;__;

        Though I can't wait to hear how this goes over with single and divorced parents. That should raise a ruckus with them, and since they are straight, THEY'LL be listened to. >____< (Ok, likely, they won't be and that is even more annoying. >___<)
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          #1912    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (8:08 AM).
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        A bunch of old, family-less, closeted and self-hating gay men are talking to us about raising children? Please.

        I'd like to be able to pity them, but they're old enough to know better so they don't have any excuses for this kind of behavior. When children throw tantrums you're not supposed to give in to them so I don't know why anyone pays any attention to these whiny bastards when they complain that things aren't going the way they want them to.

        Oh, sorry. I think I just got vitriol all over the thread.
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          #1913    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (8:59 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post
        -sigh- You know, I can see why gay Christians become atheists. :\
        To be fair I don't think labeling Christians all under that banner is totally fair. There are a lot of Christians who are completely supportive of gay rights, and even campaign for them. Which I'm sure you are /do. And Christians can obviously be gay, too.
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          #1914    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (9:12 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Daydream View Post
        To be fair I don't think labeling Christians all under that banner is totally fair. There are a lot of Christians who are completely supportive of gay rights, and even campaign for them. Which I'm sure you are /do. And Christians can obviously be gay, too.
        Well I know that. xD What I mean is that, while you do hear a lot of Christians being supportive, it's hearing Christians say that your lifestyle is sinful and that you aren't good enough to be parents and that you are wrong for being you that makes you wonder why you even bother. Why you even should try any more. So what I mean is that, as a gay Christian, I always felt like, I may as well just be atheist because I would feel happier and I wouldn't have to care any more what other judgmental Christians think. That's what I mean; it's just so...appealing, you could say. And I understand that feeling so much.

        I wasn't trying to put all Christians under that banner and I am sorry if I offended you by saying that. ;__;
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          #1915    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (10:33 AM).
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        You didn't offend me! I'm not Christian, myself. I just think it's quite important to highlight that there are a lot of Christians who are forward-thinking compared to the old-fashioned stance the leaders of the Catholic church take.
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          #1916    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (10:44 AM).
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        Of course, of course! I was just commenting on my own personal experience, I suppose. xD But that is one of the reasons I felt better about my sexuality and my religion; I knew there were Christians out there that were accepting of all. ^___^
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          #1917    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (12:55 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post
        What I mean is that, while you do hear a lot of Christians being supportive
        I actually don't hear this much at all. Sometimes, yeah, but most of the support I see and hear about comes from people who are non-religious or only slightly religious.
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          #1918    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (1:42 PM).
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        I hear Christian support, and I'm in the Bible Belt. :x As this generation of Christians grow up and the older ones die out, to put it bluntly, there are more accepting Christians nowadays than there used to have been. Besides...I have a hard time believing if someone's a Christian and they sit here and judge homosexuals, or anyone else, without taking a look at certain verses that go against that.

        -floats off-
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          #1919    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (2:50 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
        A bunch of old, family-less, closeted and self-hating gay men are talking to us about raising children? Please.

        I'd like to be able to pity them, but they're old enough to know better so they don't have any excuses for this kind of behavior. When children throw tantrums you're not supposed to give in to them so I don't know why anyone pays any attention to these whiny bastards when they complain that things aren't going the way they want them to.

        Oh, sorry. I think I just got vitriol all over the thread.
        I love you. I don't care if you're a woman, marry me.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post
        while you do hear a lot of Christians being supportive
        I actually don't hear this much at all. Sometimes, yeah, but most of the support I see and hear about comes from people who are non-religious or only slightly religious.
        Actually this is a great point. For all the people who have posted in here saying that there are a lot of Christians who are supportive of homosexuality (and I'm not disputing it, I'm sure they exist somewhere) I've never seen it once with my own eyes outside of the Internet. In my experience, religion has truly become synonymous with intolerance and I haven't once seen anything in my own life which contradicts that.

        The closest I've ever seen is the "hate the sin, not the sinner" fallacy which quite frankly is just not good enough.
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          #1920    
        Old January 11th, 2012 (5:01 PM). Edited January 11th, 2012 by Briar.
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post
          -sigh- You know, I can see why gay Christians become atheists. :\ There's just no feeling welcome anywhere. ;__; And it's **** like this that made me question my Christianity growing up. ;__;
          i think it all comes down to what you really believe in. even though some of my "brothers and sisters in faith" are disagreeable, the community itself shouldn't discourage me from calling myself a christian. it's what i believe in that should define me as a christian, not my community.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Scarf View Post
          I actually don't hear this much at all. Sometimes, yeah, but most of the support I see and hear about comes from people who are non-religious or only slightly religious.
          i've heard of several anglican and protestant churches that are pretty liberal minded and embrace the lgbtq* community. :-)
          i really think that, for christianity as a whole, it's just catholicism that's remaining inflexible when it comes to topics like these.
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            #1921    
          Old January 11th, 2012 (5:35 PM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Briar View Post
            i've heard of several anglican and protestant churches that are pretty liberal minded and embrace the lgbtq* community. :-)
            i really think that, for christianity as a whole, it's just catholicism that's remaining inflexible when it comes to topics like these.
            Yeah my bestfriend's father is a Anglican Reverend (think that's what his role is called) and he fully embraces the queer community and even let's me sleep in his daughter's bed (nothing happens but yes).

            It's really nice because at my old church they used to not look down, but discourage the "gay lifestyle" and it really annoyed me, as religion at that time was a part of my life.
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              #1922    
            Old January 11th, 2012 (5:42 PM). Edited January 11th, 2012 by -Jared-.
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
            The closest I've ever seen is the "hate the sin, not the sinner" fallacy which quite frankly is just not good enough.
            And it isn't good enough for me as well. That line seems to just be used to make people feel better about their judgmental ways. Because they never seem to "love the sinner but hate the fact that they disrespect their parents" or "hate the fact that they feel jealous of their neighbor." That's because those "sins" are more acceptable by society at large.

            That's why I am glad there are Christians out there that don't follow that line.

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Briar
            i think it all comes down to what you really believe in. even though some of my "brothers and sisters in faith" are disagreeable, the community itself shouldn't discourage me from calling myself a christian. it's what i believe in that should define me as a christian, not my community.


            Yeah, that's is why I am who I am today. :3 At the time I didn't know or think that, but as I grew up I realized it didn't matter what everyone else thought; I am me, and that was that. ^___^
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              #1923    
            Old January 11th, 2012 (6:47 PM).
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              Do not get me started on homosexuality and the Bible. Just don't. =P

              The fact of the matter is I just don't buy being against homosexuality as a "religious belief". It's more of an excuse, and hiding hatred behind the Bible. You can't deny it, we've seen it happen with other groups as well, like women.

              Once society evolves, these verses always get declared as irrelevant, but beforehand they are treated like they are above the Ten Commandments which couldn't possibly annoy me anymore. It's all too clear what is going on here. It's not a religious belief in the least. It is a natural hate toward homosexuality being masked as a religious belief.

              And that is why you don't want to get me started. lol
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                #1924    
              Old January 11th, 2012 (9:32 PM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Shining Raichu View Post
              The closest I've ever seen is the "hate the sin, not the sinner" fallacy which quite frankly is just not good enough.
              Whenever someone tries to use the "Hate the sin, not the sinner." line, I use a saying of my own: "Hate nothing."

              It's not your place to hate as a Christian, who's God loves the world and every living creature. It's something you should strive to get rid of completely...

              That's more my own personality talking rather than actual Christianity though, as it seems very few Christians share this belief with me.

              (Sorry if I'm getting too... uh, emotional I guess. This conversation has just made me realize how much it bugs me when Christians act like this. =/)
                #1925    
              Old January 12th, 2012 (8:43 AM).
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              Quote:
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              I love you. I don't care if you're a woman, marry me.
              I support this wholeheartedly. Scarf x Shining Raichu

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Pikapal642 View Post
              Though I can't wait to hear how this goes over with single and divorced parents. That should raise a ruckus with them, and since they are straight, THEY'LL be listened to. >____< (Ok, likely, they won't be and that is even more annoying. >___<)
              Single and divorced parents are pretty much in the same boat, honestly, at least in Catholicism. Single parents aren't considered a full family unit because they had sex outside of marriage which is a sin, and divorce...doesn't exist in the Catholic church. After decades of not being part of it, when my mom went back, she had to prove that the marriage wasn't legitimate in the eyes of the Catholic church in order to get it annuled. Because an annulment isn't just a Catholic divorce, it's literally saying that the two people, when they got married, weren't in a position to make that decision for some reason or another (they felt pressured due to an unexpected pregnancy, one partner didn't reveal themselves fully until after the marriage was complete, or a lack of wish to have children are common reasons). Basically saying the marriage never existed, not like a divorce where it's "the marriage existed, then it ended". So a divorced couple, unless they're annuled, are wrong in the eyes of the Church.
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