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  #126    
Old July 13th, 2011 (11:21 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PDC View Post
    I figured I should start contributing to the "overcentralization" stuff.

    Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word. If something is used alot, it does not mean it is broken in the slightest bit (Well in Latias's case in Gen 4, it was correct). Also, the Reuniclus arguement also relates how Jirachi is used to also take on Latias, Latios, Gengar, etc. Same thing with Scizor. They both are used to handle a large majority of Pokemon in the current metagame.
    But being used a lot is not overcentralization. Overcentralization is when something is so broken that a team must specifically prepare one/a few pokemon for it, and its counters are few and far between.

    no I do not think that overcentralization is a good arguement I'm just pointing this out
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      #127    
    Old July 13th, 2011 (11:22 AM).
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    I assume you mean reqs for suspect voting Vrai?
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      #128    
    Old July 13th, 2011 (11:28 AM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cycle View Post
    But being used a lot is not overcentralization. Overcentralization is when something is so broken that a team must specifically prepare one/a few pokemon for it, and its counters are few and far between.

    no I do not think that overcentralization is a good arguement I'm just pointing this out
    But generally overcentralization is associated with usage. When something is used a lot, naturally things change to prepare for it. You can't be overcentralizing if you aren't used is all.

    Regardless of definition, 'overcentralization' is not a ban-worthy offense.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jake♫ View Post
    I assume you mean reqs for suspect voting Vrai?
    Yes. :(
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      #129    
    Old July 13th, 2011 (12:35 PM).
    yankee0724 yankee0724 is offline
       
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      Oh my god, I'm actually putting something in here. I'll probably forgot I did this and not look again for a week or something like always.

      Anyway...there's a difference between being used a lot and something being overcentralizing.

      I will use the Ferrothorn example somebody brought up in here. Yes, it is on just about every single team ever made, but it is far from overcentralizing when it is scared off by pretty much anything that COULD have a fire move or a fighting move. Whereas something like Latias really is only scared of random stuff like for example Scaqrf Special Lucario using Shadow Ball or something dumb like that [probably not close to a OHKO, but you get the point].

      You basically HAVE to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor, two pokemon that could be 1000X more effective used in a different way, if you don't want your team to get smashed by Specs Latios. THAT, to me, is what makes something overcentralizing. When, no matter how good your team is, you basically NEED to run something in order to not lose to something that is simply a hit and run pokemon. Yeah...that's overcentralization at it's simplest.
        #130    
      Old July 13th, 2011 (2:53 PM). Edited July 14th, 2011 by champagnepapi.
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by yankee0724 View Post
      Oh my god, I'm actually putting something in here. I'll probably forgot I did this and not look again for a week or something like always.

      Anyway...there's a difference between being used a lot and something being overcentralizing.

      I will use the Ferrothorn example somebody brought up in here. Yes, it is on just about every single team ever made, but it is far from overcentralizing when it is scared off by pretty much anything that COULD have a fire move or a fighting move. Whereas something like Latias really is only scared of random stuff like for example Scaqrf Special Lucario using Shadow Ball or something dumb like that [probably not close to a OHKO, but you get the point].

      You basically HAVE to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor, two pokemon that could be 1000X more effective used in a different way, if you don't want your team to get smashed by Specs Latios. THAT, to me, is what makes something overcentralizing. When, no matter how good your team is, you basically NEED to run something in order to not lose to something that is simply a hit and run pokemon. Yeah...that's overcentralization at it's simplest.
      Pretty much this. People hate Ferrothorn because you /need/ a fire or fighting [preferably the former] type attack to beat it, which isn't a huge inconvenience since both of those are already common attacking types. Reuniclus and Latios, or a combo of both are the bane of any battler's existence, as they almost require that you have one of the mons yankee mentioned, or your team gets swept. I'm hoping both will be banned in the near future, as it's not very fun if I have to sacrifice individuality and possibly synergy to make sure that my team isn't weak to these two monstrous Pokemon.

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by PDC
      Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word.
      Isn't that a variant on an excerpt from user Haunter's signature?
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        #131    
      Old July 13th, 2011 (3:49 PM).
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      I'd just like to announce that the PO server is back up
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        #132    
      Old July 13th, 2011 (4:49 PM).
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      I'd just like to announce that the PO server is back up ^_^
      Instead of just making another postcount+ post like our friend Jakey did here, telling you all to join my tour, I'll bring up yet another cute subject.

      With the abundance of weather and Pokemon that become broken through their abilities, complex bans have become a subject of debate. What do you think of Complex bans and what should Smogon's policy be regarding abilities that are only abused by one Pokemon [such as Speed Boost and Sand Veil], should the Pokemon itself be banned, or should the ability be banned?
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        #133    
      Old July 13th, 2011 (8:23 PM).
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      I have no problems with complex bans. Mainly because I'd love to see Chomp back in OU and it was sad to see him go away again (even more so this time because I actually got to use him. I joined serious competitive back when Plat was released, so basically I never got to use him).

      I don't see the problem. :P Seems like the majority of the reason they're not doing complex bans is based on precedent. It think that's a terrible reason to be honest. New generation, new rules, at least that's my views. (inb4 rejected by majority of community).
        #134    
      Old July 14th, 2011 (8:20 PM).
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        To add another discussion topic, i was wondering what are some of the major advantages and disadvantages of OU pokemon.

        a disadvantage i think is that with OU pokemans is that it can be fairly easy to predict what set is being used on a particular pokemon, making the prediction aspect of the battle a lot easier for the opponent.

        anyways, what do you all think about my question above?
          #135    
        Old July 19th, 2011 (7:42 AM).
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          I don't mind complex bans either, lol. I seriously don't get why there's WoT of debate on this. We had to deal with Soul Dew and Brightpowder bans; why complain now?

          As to answer dreyko's question, this is basically predictability vs. power. Personally I prefer the latter, since I only play on PO, where if I don't know such and such about a certain Pokemon I'm facing I can just open up Smogon.
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            #136    
          Old July 19th, 2011 (8:57 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by dreyko View Post
          To add another discussion topic, i was wondering what are some of the major advantages and disadvantages of OU pokemon.

          a disadvantage i think is that with OU pokemans is that it can be fairly easy to predict what set is being used on a particular pokemon, making the prediction aspect of the battle a lot easier for the opponent.

          anyways, what do you all think about my question above?
          Advantages of using OU pokemon: they win.

          Disadvantages of using OU pokemon: end list.


          There is no disadvantage to using an OU pokemon, hence why its OU. I don't battle anymore or really even visit this site, (I just stopped by to see whats up, seems like ya'll are pretty busy and I guess D_A quit? anyway....) but I know that the general formula if you will for competitive Pokemon is the same. OU pokemon are OU for a reason: they check the stronger pokemon or they are the stronger pokemon. That's why they are desirable. Realistically, if you wanted to use Foretress instead of the new grass/steel version you probably could, but why would you? They are basically identical, but the new one has leech seed and better offensive skills making it a more desirable pokemon. You could use Altaria instead of Salamence, but Salamence a better choice because it has better stats and stuff.


          Also, on the argument of "over-centralization requires a ban" I don't think it does. If that was true, then all dragon types except like dratini and altaria (because they are about equally as strong) would be ubers, because being Dragon-type or /Dragon-type is automatically over-centralizing. When only 1 type in the game resists said type and said type only has 2 less than prevalent weaknesses and an entry hazard can be set up to cripple any pokemon with the type of said weakness by taking away as little as 12.5% and as much as 50% upon entry, it's going to be the dominant type. Gamefreak basically screwed competitive battling by over-saturating games with about 250 new dragon-type pokemon every game, and since they usually come with ridiculously good stats relative to everything else, they are going to be used a lot. I mean, honestly its not steel-types that are too common, you wouldn't see them nearly as much if dragon's were less common, its that dragons are too common and too big of a threat, so if you don't have something you're going to get dominated.

          If I could make a parallel to another game, it's like Call of Duty, its not that Assault Rifles are too good, its that they are very good. So if you don't use an Assault Rifle or an SMG, you are basically crippling yourself. Same thing goes with Dragon-types.

          Also, I wanna make a disclaimer that I know next to nothing about Gen 5 competitive (or noncompetitive) pokemon, but I'm pretty confident nothing has changed too drastically.


          P.S. hi everyone.
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            #137    
          Old July 19th, 2011 (9:05 PM).
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          Shamelessly agreeing with Gamer.

          SPEAKING OF WHICH GET ON PO NOW
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            #138    
          Old July 25th, 2011 (2:36 PM).
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            #139    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (2:54 AM).
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          New Topic time~

          So, for those of you who have watched and actually paid attention to the most recent Smogcast [I look at you, Vrai], you may have caught the tidbit about Wobbuffet. For those who didn't, the panelists pretty much said it was Antimetagame and is still very threatening even with Encore getting nerfed and should be deserving of a ban mainly because it takes away a player's ability to switch.

          So, what are everyone's thoughts on the big, blue punching bag? How threatening do you find it? Is it worthy of a ban?
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            #140    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (5:00 AM).
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          I've never actually used Wobbuffet myself. But I have faced them and they're not that hard to get rid of, if you play your cards right. Not being able to switch is pretty annoying but with the team preview I always knows that I have Wobbu to deal with and play cautiously.

          I say keep it in OU or UU Idk what it's in atm. I rarely see them, anyway,
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            #141    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (6:14 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by dragonomega View Post
          I've never actually used Wobbuffet myself. But I have faced them and they're not that hard to get rid of, if you play your cards right. Not being able to switch is pretty annoying but with the team preview I always knows that I have Wobbu to deal with and play cautiously.

          I say keep it in OU or UU Idk what it's in atm. I rarely see them, anyway,
          Ehhh I had a longer post written but my computer decided to go "LOL U" and deleted it. :(

          Anyway, the problem with Wobb is not that it's "not that hard to get rid of if you play your cards right", it's that it is that hard to get rid of if they play their cards right. I've played very poor Wobbuffet users and very, very good ones and honestly if someone plays Wobbuffet effectively it's incredibly hard to beat. Plus it's got massive utility; trapping and killing scarfers, weather inducers... plus you can encore a set-up move and then go kill their set-upper or set up on your own, depending on what you encored. It's an amazing utility if played effectively and while it doesn't have much to say recovery-wise, you always have wishpassing. :(

          I'd probably abstain if given a vote, however. I'm pretty sure they're bent on it being broken in UU but I haven't played UU in a while anyway. Wobb + Dugtrio is apparently insanely broken. :<
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            #142    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (7:23 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Karpman View Post
          New Topic time~

          So, for those of you who have watched and actually paid attention to the most recent Smogcast [I look at you, Vrai], you may have caught the tidbit about Wobbuffet. For those who didn't, the panelists pretty much said it was Antimetagame and is still very threatening even with Encore getting nerfed and should be deserving of a ban mainly because it takes away a player's ability to switch.

          So, what are everyone's thoughts on the big, blue punching bag? How threatening do you find it? Is it worthy of a ban?
          It's a bit harder for them to predict if you have a strong mixed attacker, though they are quite annoying to deal with if a pokemon lacks taunt.
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            #143    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (8:59 AM).
          .Aero .Aero is offline
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          There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

          1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

          2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

          3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

          That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.
            #144    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (9:15 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by .Aero View Post
          There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

          1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

          2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

          3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

          That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.
          All of those things are definitely very true. Howeverrrr, the biggest thing here is that nearly everything that has had Power Creep is found in OU. What is super-powerful, insanely strong, able to one-shot Wobbuffet in UU? CB U-Turn Scizor, maybe? Specs Yanmega? Point is, power creep is nonexistant in UU; and so is Taunt iirc, for that matter. Taunt Mismagius is probably the only thing that frequently uses it and half the time Sub is used anyway. The Encore nerf is really why they brought him down from Ubers and makes him much much much less godlike but he still has the potential to either set up a gamebreaking sweep or trap and kill basically any Pokemon on the other team. Tickle Wobbuffet + Dugtrio is very popular down in UU to trap and kill off things like Chansey, etc. It's likely to be a suspect if not banned in the UU nominations next round because it really is just much more effective down there where things are just -less strong-.
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            #145    
          Old July 27th, 2011 (10:21 AM).
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          I don't really get the thing about Taunt being an issue for Wobbuffet. I mean yeah, it beats it, but it's not like Ice Shard Mamoswine beating Salamence in that it doesn't prevent Wobbuffet from doing its job. As a trapper, only a few things on a team need to be vulnerable to it for it to have an impact. And if it gets a kill and a Taunt user comes in, Wobbuffet can just switch out.

          That being said, I used it when I first started with BW and found him tricky to use, mostly because Encore would be a real pain with how it doesn't last as long. I was the most successful when I knew its limits. Sometimes I would overestimate it and it would get beaten up. But it can definitely be useful.

          Spoiler:
          Also just to get back to over centralization for a second, everything good causes centralization. You can say Fire- and fighting-type moves are useful even without it around, but SDef Scizor and Jirachi are useful even without Latios or Reuniclus to wall. I don't really get the difference.

          You could argue that Latios and Reuniclus cause more centralization than Ferrothorn or anything else, but just because something causes more centralization than other Pokemon doesn't mean that it's broken. I think that's where the argument kinda breaks down.
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            #146    
          Old August 4th, 2011 (1:25 PM).
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          Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

          Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

          - Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
          - Weather
          - Dragon + Steel spam.

          Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

          Thats literally all the metagame is.
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            #147    
          Old August 4th, 2011 (1:37 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Dark Azelf View Post
          Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

          Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

          - Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
          - Weather
          - Dragon + Steel spam.

          Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

          Thats literally all the metagame is. -_-
          THIS THIS THIS THIS.

          The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.
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            #148    
          Old August 4th, 2011 (2:08 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Karpman View Post
          THIS THIS THIS THIS.

          The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.
          Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

          Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/
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            #149    
          Old August 4th, 2011 (2:11 PM).
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          Quote:
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          Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

          Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/
          Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.
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            #150    
          Old August 4th, 2011 (2:37 PM).
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          Dark Azelf Dark Azelf is offline
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          • Gold Tier
           
          Join Date: Jun 2007
          Age: 26
          Gender: Male
          Nature: Impish
          Posts: 7,146
          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Karpman View Post
          Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.
          The offensive CM LO Latios in rain really wears on even SpDef Jirachi with Surf. ):

          In rain, unboosted Surf does : 36.6% - 43.3%

          +1 LO Surf does ; 54.7% - 64.6%

          So you have to keep your Jirachi at tip top condition throughout the whole match which is easier said than done.

          CM LO Latios in rain also OHKO's standard CB Scizor at +1 and does 79.9% - 94.2% to max hp/max sp.def Adamant Scizor. ~~

          Then in the last slot you can choose between HP Fight to dent Ferrothorn and KO Tar or Psyshock for Blissey. Weee fun. x.x
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