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  #51    
Old July 25th, 2011 (8:45 PM).
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    That's how I am towards canon characters, at least Pokemon ones. The ones that I want to read about, no one ever writes about them. While the ones that everyone writes about, I can't stand. There's only so many times I can read about Red or Ash.

    Quote:
    Actually, to tell the truth, I don’t read Pokemon fanfiction for pleasure at all anymore.
    Same here. I think, with me, is that I've been in the fanfiction corner of this fandom for so long that it feels like I've read every kind of fic out there that there's nothing new to excite me. Sometimes, there'll be an author that I enjoy, and I follow their work, but I no longer actively search out fics to read just for fun.

    Quote:
    That reminds me, what was the name of that one nerd who read a few Anglo Saxon and Nordic epics and decided to develop his own little send-up world of them and write stories about it? Oh yeah, J.R.R. Tolkien. :D
    And then all those fantasy writers who wanted to never leave the world of Tolkien's, so they created their own fantasy world.
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      #52    
    Old July 25th, 2011 (9:43 PM).
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    Bay Alexison Bay Alexison is offline
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Astinus View Post
    That's how I am towards canon characters, at least Pokemon ones. The ones that I want to read about, no one ever writes about them. While the ones that everyone writes about, I can't stand. There's only so many times I can read about Red or Ash.
    Guess you don't want to read Quiet Admiration, then. O: *gets shot*

    Seriously though, I too seemed to not to enjoy reading Pokemon fics as I did before. Been in this fandom for many years and yeah, now these days not too many new and interesting stories out there. As for canon characters, I don't mind reading about them because I have read stories that had put a different spin on those characters. There might be some canon characters I'm more interested in reading than others, though.

    LOL, I don't think I hate anything I have seen in Pokemon fanfiction saved for repeated chosen one fics, angst/dark fics that aren't done well, and fics that are shippy/romance driven (funny enough, I'm writing a shippy fic for a different fandom >.<; ). However, as I mentioned before I'm just a bit tired of many stories more or else copying someone else's idea and not at least have a different take on that idea.
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      #53    
    Old July 26th, 2011 (5:22 AM).
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    Miz en Scène Miz en Scène is offline
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      Quote:
      Hah, isn't it curious that many of us, Pokemon fans as we are, dislike reading fics about canon characters? That's pretty funny from my standpoint.
      I usually don't because I find that a lot of stories which revolve around canon characters tend to stray into the realm of the OOC. :<
      You sometimes can't help it if the characters don't have much canon info on them, leading much to fanon speculation. Try as I might though, sometimes fanon doesn't capture the very essence of said characters enough for me to consider them indistinguishable from their canon counterparts, so they just start to seem OOC to me. Also, not to mention newbie writers tend to use canon characters very frequently because they like to explore what-if scenarios. Incidentally, what-if scenarios often apply to newbie shipping stories too, so yeah...
      Quote:
      There might be some canon characters I'm more interested in reading than others, though.
      Though, you know, sometimes being OOC enough can lead to becoming interesting. xD

      Quote:
      That reminds me, what was the name of that one nerd who read a few Anglo Saxon and Nordic epics and decided to develop his own little send-up world of them and write stories about it? Oh yeah, J.R.R. Tolkien. :D
      Don't forget Tolkien and Lewis' SF counterparts: Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke. IIRC, Asimov and Clarke both read Sci-fi pulps as kids.

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      Sometimes, there'll be an author that I enjoy, and I follow their work, but I no longer actively search out fics to read just for fun.
      Why am I not alone here?
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        #54    
      Old July 26th, 2011 (5:32 AM). Edited July 26th, 2011 by Misheard Whisper.
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      Actually - deviating slightly from the topic here - could we not put forward the notion that this apparent drought of quality fanfiction is the reason for the lack of activity here?

      God, that sounds stupid when I say it like that. Duh, less fics equals less action, duh of course. But in all seriousness, every now and again someone comes along on a mission and yells '*****!' and suggests we do something to push the activity levels back to what they were in FF's heyday. I kinda think we of the old guard need to do something about that before we even think about making incentive programs or starting contests or whatever highfalutin ideas people are toting around. We kind of just need to sit down and a) grind out some fanfiction, taking pride in what we do and the forum we love and b) get some interesting discussions like this one flowing - again, because this is what we like to do and, goddammit, this is where we like to do it!
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        #55    
      Old July 26th, 2011 (5:57 AM).
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      Miz en Scène Miz en Scène is offline
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper View Post
        Actually - deviating slightly from the topic here - could we not put forward the notion that this apparent drought of quality fanfiction is the reason for the lack of activity here?
        Tbh, none of us are actually saying that outright, but I can get where you're coming from. The lack of quality fanfiction here has never been an issue. It's the lack of quality reviewers and consistent writers. I mean like, there's maybe four or five good fics out there right now on the front page, and only a few of us even bother to do any reviews on a daily, hell, even weekly basis.

        Quote:
        God, that sounds stupid when I say it like that. Duh, less fics equals less action, duh of course. But in all seriousness, every now and again someone comes along on a mission and yells '*****!' and suggests we do something to push the activity levels back to what they were in FF's heyday. I kinda think we of the old guard need to do something about that before we even think about making incentive programs or starting contests or whatever highfalutin ideas people are toting around. We kind of just need to sit down and a) grind out some fanfiction, taking pride in what we do and the forum we love and b) get some interesting discussions like this one flowing - again, because this is what we like to do and, goddammit, this is where we like to do it!
        Basically this. ^
        Also 'old guard' makes me think of Dumbledore's Army for some reason.
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          #56    
        Old July 26th, 2011 (6:02 AM).
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        Quote:
        Tbh, none of us are actually saying that outright, but I can get where you're coming from
        I was referring to Onyx whatshisface's comment. Kinda reminded me of this post I saw on another forum - 'I only read [certain fic] because I fear I've been spoiled on good writing and if I read anything else I'll hate it'. While, thank God, nobody's like that here as far as I can tell, it's true that people - myself included - simply don't read enough. But if we set an example by writing consistently, that will set wheels in motion. Not only will it encourage review sharing and exchange between new and old members alike, it also gives the new kids something to look to as a standard, which is what I would like to see.
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          #57    
        Old July 26th, 2011 (7:40 AM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Mizan de la Plume Kuro View Post
        Though, you know, sometimes being OOC enough can lead to becoming interesting. xD
        True, and that's when I review saying that. But seriously though, since I tend to stray away from Pokemon shipping fics, I don't have that much of a problem. XD; Not saying all shipping fics (or any fics with the canon characters as the main ones) have characters OOC, but yeah. Maybe I'm just lucky to find some fics where the canon characters are portrayed well. I'm probably the only one here that looks forward to seeing canon characters done well in Pokemon fics, though that's mostly because I have been practicing writing canon characters for a couple different fandoms and I enjoy doing the stories a lot.

        As for Misheard Whisper's comment over us trying to help out get this community gain some activity again, I agree pretty much everything. The only thing is bleh I can't seem think up any Pokemon plot bunnies. >.>; I have a couple story ideas I might want to try, but I need to sit down and plan a bit on them. Also there's real life stuff going on for me so I don't have too much time reviewing, but I'll try my best to keep up with a few fics here.
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          #58    
        Old July 26th, 2011 (8:43 AM).
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          If we want to up activity, reviewing, I think, is the most important thing. It doesn't matter if we write good stories if no one will bother to look at them. I guess we can do both at once, but it'll only work if this is a group effort. If activity starts to lower again, someone should start a new thread or at least do something to keep activity high.

          On another note, I’ve started a new thread about what we love seeing in fanfiction.

          EDIT: My posts are being difficult and won't go into the default color most of the time, so I apologize for possible hard-to-read text. ;_;
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            #59    
          Old July 26th, 2011 (11:43 AM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by icomeanon6 View Post
          I would recommend Daydream's For All the Right Reasons. Unfortunately, it hasn't been updated since January, but that just goes to show that you can't really get an impression of a forum's writing just by looking over the first few pages of threads.
          What a coincidence that I should happen to update, the day I look at this thread!

          I think a lot of the things I find a turn off in fiction have been stated already in this thread. Specifically unrealistic canon pairings, it annoys me how horrifically out of character they're forced to be. Or if an author creates a character that is basically the opposite-sex counterpart of whoever they're trying to pair them with. I don't want to read Paul and Paula's angsty angsty romance.

          One other personal dislike is original characters without much development of their background, specifically in pokemon fanfiction. Your generic trainer has left their hometown with starter in tow. Great. But what are their motivations? Something at least need to be said as to why they want to be a trainer. Even if you're trying to be 'mysterious' or give the impression your character is escaping from a hurtful past they'd rather forget about, I think there should at least be some allusion to this, that is then developed as we go on.
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            #60    
          Old July 26th, 2011 (4:54 PM).
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          JX Valentine JX Valentine is offline
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by wingman11 View Post
            Perhaps I'm jumping in unannounced, but I couldn't help but notice that not many people at the start of this thread are fans of reborn fics, mainly because they were (and perhaps still are, i don't know) wildly popular and generally poorly written.
            Um.

            *raises hand* I'd like to point out the fact that there were two people referencing rebirth fics at the beginning of the thread, and one of them hates all rebirth fic not because of all the rip-offs of ALNM but instead because the overabundance of angst (A ridiculously angsty past for every character? Really?) coupled with the fact that they practically glamorize suicide, depression, and abuse makes her want to bludgeon people with burlap sacks full of kittens.

            I also found most of the cast in ALNM the kinds of characters I'd like to punch in the collective face for exactly this reason.

            But, you know. To each their own. I'm just saying that for me, ALNM is most certainly not an exception but more of a reason.

            Also, yes to activity, but because I'm immensely lazy as of late and because the last time I decided "OH HEY I'M GOING TO CONTRIBUTE A LOT OF IDEAS" turned out to be a bad idea, I'mma gonna sit back, nod, and agree with Dagzar. Problem with PC is that a lot of the time, it feels like a one-way street of authors just posting their fic and rarely getting feedback, so I know that some authors just don't feel like posting their work due to the lack of a guarantee that it'll be read and accepted. o hai mw so i herd u mentioned something about this on sppf to someone But the last time I said we should get our rears in gear and do something, that wound up being a great idea ("great" here meaning "a lot like plans that would land you in a jail in Mexico vomiting up mostly tequila"), so I'm shoving any action part onto someone else like Misheard while I play the crotchety old jerkass saying everything sucks.
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              #61    
            Old July 26th, 2011 (5:14 PM).
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            Quote:
            o hai mw so i herd u mentioned something about this on sppf
            I had to go look that up to see what you were talking about. When you know my conversations better than I do, you know you've transcended simple 'convo-stalking'. XD

            Quote:
            I'm shoving any action part onto someone else like Misheard while I play the crotchety old jerkass saying everything sucks.
            I'm actually keen to shoulder some responsibility and start throwing some reviews around, tbh. I'll try and kick my ass into gear this coming term, though I'll be limited as to what I can do by upcoming exams and stuff.
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              #62    
            Old July 26th, 2011 (5:19 PM).
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              Didn't we have a "Review Once a Day" challenge a while back? Maybe we could start up one of those again if enough people aren't too busy. There's a lot of fics that have been posted that need reviews. Even if the reviews are only a few sentences that point out a single mistake, they'd definitely be more helpful than nothing at all.
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                #63    
              Old July 26th, 2011 (5:56 PM).
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              JX Valentine JX Valentine is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Misheard Whisper View Post
                I had to go look that up to see what you were talking about. When you know my conversations better than I do, you know you've transcended simple 'convo-stalking'. XD
                I prefer to think I have an awesome memory.

                Or that I'd go bi for New Zealanders.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Dagzar View Post
                Didn't we have a "Review Once a Day" challenge a while back?
                We did, but then the last time we did that, I'm pretty sure only one crazy person managed to get over five reviews. :( Also, I think we decided to vary it up between writing challenges, reviewing challenges, and whatever else we could think of.

                But yeah, we should totally do another one if there's more than you and me interested in it.

                Yay topic derailing! \o/ Wait.
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                  #64    
                Old July 26th, 2011 (6:24 PM).
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                Bay Alexison Bay Alexison is offline
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
                We did, but then the last time we did that, I'm pretty sure only one crazy person managed to get over five reviews. Also, I think we decided to vary it up between writing challenges, reviewing challenges, and whatever else we could think of.

                But yeah, we should totally do another one if there's more than you and me interested in it.

                Yay topic derailing! \o/ Wait.
                LOL, I'm the crazy person that managed to get over five reviews. I actually did all 29 (that was in April...oh, April's Fools).

                I would be interested in another reviewing challenge (see, I'm crazy XD; ), though it might depend what month it'll be in. I'm still up for a writing challenge since I want to write Pokemon fanfiction again.
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                  #65    
                Old July 26th, 2011 (6:30 PM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
                  Um.

                  *raises hand* I'd like to point out the fact that there were two people referencing rebirth fics at the beginning of the thread, and one of them hates all rebirth fic not because of all the rip-offs of ALNM but instead because the overabundance of angst (A ridiculously angsty past for every character? Really?) coupled with the fact that they practically glamorize suicide, depression, and abuse makes her want to bludgeon people with burlap sacks full of kittens.
                  OK, so maybe I didn't really mean most people, but I just wanted to defend it a bit because ALNM actually had a really deep effect on me, mainly because of how it associated suicide with a really b*tchy character, which kind of caused me to not think well of suicide. Although the depressing past for every character was a bit much. I get the feeling that's for a reason though. (He hints at it in the sequel.) She does improve later on, but only marginally. At least by the end she realizes how wrong her suicide was. Perhaps she traded in that burlap sack of kittens for a grocery bag of hamsters. *shrugs* Again, it was the meaning that I enjoyed.

                  Also, note to self: Lay off the angst; don't want my story to flop.

                  But it's as you said, to each their own.

                  I also can't agree more with how it seems that the reason for lack of activity is the lack of reviews. I know from experience that if I don't get any reviews or constructive feedback, I tend to lose interest in writing whatever it is I'm writing. I'm totally interested in trying to do a review a day thing; I've heard that reading and reviewing other stories can help improve writing skills of both the reviewer and the reviewed.
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                    #66    
                  Old July 26th, 2011 (7:04 PM). Edited July 26th, 2011 by JX Valentine.
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by wingman11 View Post
                    Perhaps she traded in that burlap sack of kittens for a grocery bag of hamsters. *shrugs*
                    Note to ensure that we're on the same page: The person wielding the burlap sack full of kittens would be me, dear, not the character. *motions to the long post she wrote on the first page involving how much she hates that fic and the things fanfics tend to say about suicide, depression, and so forth*

                    In short: I was put off by the way the fic handled suicide, and I don't find any part of it to be particularly deep because of that. I'm sorry, but it just reads like teen poetry to me -- like it's trying too hard to be deep, and as a result, it thinks that angst = depth. And the fact that it's about suicide and the fact that Angela reads just like a parody of an angst!Sue for those beginning chapters makes me feel like it's making light of the subject, rather than actually saying suicide is a bad idea. I know I can't speak for everyone, but it just felt preachy, over-the-top, and fake to me (what with angst everywhere) than something that set out to talk about issues as sensitive as that with any kind of seriousness.

                    And yes, I have to apologize because I know you said it affected you greatly, but I really can't find a better way to put this. (And I've edited this post three times, too.) That fic just makes me angry for so many reasons.
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                      #67    
                    Old July 26th, 2011 (8:32 PM).
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                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
                      Note to ensure that we're on the same page: The person wielding the burlap sack full of kittens would be me, dear, not the character. *motions to the long post involving how much she hates that fic and how much she tends to think that a lot of people who write about being bullied or contemplating suicide don't actually understand what it's like to suffer both experiences*
                      Whoops. That's my bad, didn't realize the pronoun 'her' was referring all the way back to you (in third person) and not to the main character. Darn pronouns.

                      I have been bullied, verbally and physically, but not to a very large extent; it didn't really carry past middle school, luckily. But I do know what it's like to rarely be included in things. Having moved around a lot, I had a hard time making a solid group of friends; it still shows a bit, because even though I have many friends through marching band, I'm still pretty detached. I can't complain, though. It could be much worse.

                      In part, I agree that the beginning didn't handle depression and seperation all too well. By the end, though, I think the author had gotten much more experience and handled it a lot better. Although at the time I read the beginning, I was 15. So maybe that's why I liked it so much then and now; the beginning was more mid-teen orientated.

                      Also, don't apologize, expressing your thoughts in a mannerly matter doesn't need an apology; I'm not offended. If anything, an opposing point of view helps me better understand my own point of view, as well as revise it a tad when the opposing view brings up a very valid point. I try to have a very open mind in hopes of understanding the views of everyone. For example, seeing how it didn't affect you as deeply as it did me lends me to think more about how it really affected me. Maybe that's a little convoluted, but it's my way of trying to reason with the world around me. If I let myself be offended by everyone who thinks differently than me, I'll end up bitter and probably alone.

                      It also helps me improve my own ideas and thoughts so that I can write a more interesting story. You've given me an idea of what questions I should be asking myself as I write. I.E: Is this too depressing, or does the moment call for it? How realistic is this depiction of [insert concerning topic/issue here]? Have I spent too much time developing this character, or does he/she still need more development? Really, you don't have any need (in my eyes) to apologize; in fact, I should be thanking you.

                      Wow, that was really off topic at the end there. Let's give a cheer for thinking in tangents!
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                        #68    
                      Old July 30th, 2011 (5:46 AM). Edited July 30th, 2011 by Dragonite Ernston.
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                        Hmm, my first real discussion here (I think). This should be interesting.

                        I can't be bothered to remember everything I've read in the thread, so I'll post everything that either annoys or bores me as well.

                        I'm mostly a journey fic / backstory fic kinda guy, so most of the fics that I read and have opinions about will be of that nature.

                        If there was any one thing that annoyed me the most about fics - and not just journey fics, the problem is in most places too - it would be that they move too fast. And I'm not talking with a fast pacing - I mean, moving quickly through the plot without really touching on anything.

                        The whole "wake up, get a Pokémon from the professor" routine would be a lot more bearable (in my opinion, anyway) if people actually took the time to describe the inside, make the character do a few things inside, and actually shake things up a bit even within the office. Ditto with the battles.

                        The thing that gets me secondly is grammar and spelling, of course. Not stuff like beginning a sentence with a conjunction or ending one with a preposition, but stuff like omitting articles and missing periods on every single sentence and BLEARGH.

                        Nothing much else bothers me as a rule, really. That's not to say that I can't find something else that bothers me as well, but it'll usually be very specific to that story.

                        I'm not a guy to pick on characterization much. But I really think that if people really sat down to actually make their writing flow well and flesh things out [not with overly flowery prose, that just clutters things up and makes the pacing even worse], we'd have much fewer of the Mary Sue tropes and bad characterization tendencies and such that we have now. And even if a Mary Sue did appear and make the story boring, at least it would be boring for that reason, and not just because the story is just a blur that spirals out of control.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by JX Valentine View Post
                        We did, but then the last time we did that, I'm pretty sure only one crazy person managed to get over five reviews.
                        I think I got 12. And no way: I'm looking at the thread now, and Bay, you, Astinus, Mizan, bobandbill, and icomeanon6 all did the full 28. (The closest anybody else got was me, though, with 12 :<)

                        *edit* Agh, apparently you guys had another one. In which case, I didn't get any :<
                          #69    
                        Old August 3rd, 2011 (8:21 AM).
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                        toptheworld toptheworld is offline
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                          Cookiecutter fics in general for me. Since I've recently been in the NxTouko craze, I've been reading a ton of fanfics about them, it's killer. It's either, N disappears, Touko becomes depressed, they meet and fall in love. Or it's N wins, and Touko must become his bride.

                          Mind you, I have a version of the latter one, but I'm making turn on a different path, leading to a different ending and a sequel, so I wouldn't exactly call it hypocritical.
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                            #70    
                          Old August 3rd, 2011 (12:01 PM).
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                          Sgt Shock Sgt Shock is offline
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                            Yeah I have time to actually post something.

                            For me (like many others), I'm sort of bored with the whole journey fan fiction type of thing going on. I've noticed that a lot of them start off as a journey fan fiction, yet changes to something completely different as the story goes on. My question for that is, why not start there? I've seen people go about 20 to 30 chapters in, and the trainer is not even going through gyms anymore and the storyline had taken a completely different direction. If your story is that deep, don’t start with your trainer going to Professor whomever. It’s plenty ways to get there without going through the game mold of things happens after gyms.

                            It's all about getting new and creative ideas. I think people underestimate the depth that this universe can have. They can branch out to something borderline original fiction if they wanted to, but still stay true to the fandom. I enjoy reading a fan fiction where the world is so drastically different that it could even attract people that aren't into the universe.

                            The original trainer/coordinator things can get a bit overzealous. I'm not saying that there aren't any good ones out there, but it will be nice just to get away from them from time to time. The universe is too diverse not to try something different.

                            Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a lot of ranger fan fictions out there. It has potential, but it is hardly tapped into.
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                              #71    
                            Old August 3rd, 2011 (12:10 PM).
                            Raizhu Raizhu is offline
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                              Horrible spelling and grammar along with overused plots are two huge annoyances for me.
                              I also stay away from stories focusing on Eevee and it's evolutions, especially Umbreon.
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                                #72    
                              Old August 3rd, 2011 (1:19 PM).
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                              Bay Alexison Bay Alexison is offline
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                              Quote:
                              Originally Posted by Sgt Shock View Post
                              For me (like many others), I'm sort of bored with the whole journey fan fiction type of thing going on. I've noticed that a lot of them start off as a journey fan fiction, yet changes to something completely different as the story goes on. My question for that is, why not start there? I've seen people go about 20 to 30 chapters in, and the trainer is not even going through gyms anymore and the storyline had taken a completely different direction. If your story is that deep, don’t start with your trainer going to Professor whomever. It’s plenty ways to get there without going through the game mold of things happens after gyms.
                              THIS so much. Seriously, I love journey fics where the story starts off when something serious is happening. There is one trainer/journeyfic I'm thinking of for quite some time that will start when the action begins.
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                                #73    
                              Old August 4th, 2011 (12:19 PM).
                              matt0044 matt0044 is offline
                                 
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                                Honestly, I can get into journey fics if they can keep me interesting. If it meaning adapting game concepts and storylines, then the story should do it in an innovative way if possible but also make sure they don't deviate too much or stick to close to the original. In short: they should show variation from the others and deviate from the norm when nescessary.

                                Anyways, I hate it when stories stop part way through because the author didn't work the story out prior to writing. Especially when it was good so far.
                                  #74    
                                Old August 5th, 2011 (10:18 AM).
                                Sgt Shock's Avatar
                                Sgt Shock Sgt Shock is offline
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                                  Quote:
                                  Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
                                  Anyways, I hate it when stories stop part way through because the author didn't work the story out prior to writing. Especially when it was good so far.
                                  I'll admit, I'm guilty for that. Yet, also can admit that stories just seem to come alive at times. You can have it planned all that you want to, but something may come up and change your entire way of thinking about it. For example, you can plan out a character bit by bit--but when you write them, they could have evolved in a way that even you cannot predict. So, its not always poor planning is the reason for a person stopping (some times its just life got the better of them or the story just wasn't gaining the heat that they wanted.).
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                                    #75    
                                  Old August 5th, 2011 (10:49 AM).
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                                  Fuyu Fuyu is offline
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                                    Quote:
                                    Originally Posted by Sgt Shock View Post
                                    I'll admit, I'm guilty for that. Yet, also can admit that stories just seem to come alive at times. You can have it planned all that you want to, but something may come up and change your entire way of thinking about it. For example, you can plan out a character bit by bit--but when you write them, they could have evolved in a way that even you cannot predict. So, its not always poor planning is the reason for a person stopping (some times its just life got the better of them or the story just wasn't gaining the heat that they wanted.).
                                    Every time I write something, the story kind of flows without me. It's why I've decided to just have little things that have to occur in the story and then just go with it. It seems to work okay. And sometimes people just don't have the time to complete something. We can say make time all we want but sometimes you just can't. It's a difficult balance.

                                    What I don't like in stories is the overly-emotional (not just sentimental scenes) You can be upset without being annoying about it, near wrist slitting of angst (unless it is for humor). Even if the scene is particularly emotional, it's is meant to make the reader feel the emotion, not drown in it. It goes the same in the other direction as well. There are stories (not sure if they're on here but I know I've seen them a couple times somewhere) that are completely dead. The little voice in the back of my head sounds like it's reading a textbook. That makes me fall asleep or be very ticked off. Yes voice is a big thing on my part.

                                    So is bad writing but I'm picky about that so I will not go there.
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