Russia wages war on "emo kids".

Started by Nihilego November 19th, 2011 6:43 AM
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Nihilego

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Ok so, I don't usually post threads with news stories but I thought this one might be interesting.

reading material / original article

And if you're like me, you probably can't be bothered to read all of that so basically, here's what's happening. Last month, a hearing was held by the State Duma regarding rules regulating "dangerous teen trends". And the issue that was brought up specifically? Emo kids! A bill passed states that "emos" are
12-16 year-olds with black and pink clothing, studded belts, painted fingernails, ear and eyebrow piercings, and black hair with fringes that "cover half the face". Emo culture's "negative ideology" may encourage depression, social withdrawal and even suicide, the bill alleges – with young girls being particularly vulnerable.
this. I'm sure your country has them, if you haven't heard the term before.

Anyway, following this hearing, it was decided that there shall now be "heavy regulation of emo websites and the banning of emo and goth fashion from schools and government buildings". Obviously this sparked a huge amount of protest through the 'emo' subculture in Russia and other countries, including the UK.

That's the long and the short of it but I really recommend you give the article a read since it's a pretty interesting one imo.

Now, since this is Other Chat, I think it'd be nice if you didn't just copy and paste these, but here are some bullet points which I think would be nice to consider:
  • Given the concerns described in the article, and assuming they are true (this may be argued against in the next bullet point), do you believe that the Russian government was within its right to limit the 'emo' subculture?
  • Do you have any experiences with this subculture which agree or disagree with the government's concerns?
  • On the whole, should governments be able to pass acts such as this one?
as well as anything else I may have missed.

Discuss!

edit: lol very old news. But discuss anyway!
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This was on the news like 3-4 years ago aha
But I don't agree with what their doing.
They are automatically assuming that if your an 'emo', you are always depressed, you self-harm and are most likely to commit suicide. And they always blame the music.
I honestly believe that people that stereotype are pathetic and need to get involved in all types of genres and social groups. That's when they'll understand what it's like to be different.
They are basically taking away their freedom to be who they want to be.

If I am correct, it is against human rights.
Well.. that is true here in England.

I am not an 'emo' (I hate it when people, especially Governments that stereotype) but if I had to stereotype myself, I would be a Hardcore kid (even though I'm 20 lol)
I prefer the fast, angry stuff =]

I don't know anything about Russian rights but I still don't agree with it. They should just leave people to be who they want to be.

I understand that they are concerned but they are associating it with a stereotype'd subculture.

Fact: Most 'emos' won't commit suicide because they are afraid too.

If they ever manage to get this bill accepted and legalized, they are going to have an up-rising on their hands. And it's not going to be pretty.
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twocows

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Normally I'm not big on stereotyping, but the way I see it, the whole point of the emo "subculture" is being depressed and moping about. So yeah, I don't mind what they've done here.

And seriously, it's not hard living in the suburbs with a well-to-do family. Get over yourselves. Go live in inner city Detroit for a day if you think you have it tough.
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Normally I'm not big on stereotyping
You say your not big on stereotyping, but you've done it right now.
I'm not trying to attack you or anything but you do seem to have a very stereotypical view against some 'emos'
.


the whole point of the emo "subculture" is being depressed and moping about.
That's not true by the slightest. As I said before, that's stereotyping.
There is no 'point' to any subculture.
Subcultures exist to in an away, show who you are. But every subculture has been stereotyped and some in a bad way. 'Emo' for example has taken the worst.


So yeah, I don't mind what they've done here.
What if they started attacking you as a subculture? You would mind then.
You have to think of it as people as a whole.


And seriously, it's not hard living in the suburbs with a well-to-do family. Get over yourselves. Go live in inner city Detroit for a day if you think you have it tough.
I wouldn't know much about that as I like in the UK, but this is the reason the world is divided. Always trying to turn thing into competitions.

Most 'emos' are very successful and the majority of them leave school with high grades.
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pastelspectre

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This is indeed old news. But I don't really agree with what they're doing, and the word 'emo' just gets me so angry. That word is such a stereotype and I just hate it. I mean sure people who tend to wear black and long sleeves in the sun/summer are depressed yes but that does not make them emo.

I think what they're doing is wrong and unjust, people like that have their own subculture and to riot against that is like rioting against, well, it's just unfair and it doesn't make sense because the people in their subculture are not doing anything wrong.

Yoshikko

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You say your not big on stereotyping, but you've done it right now.
I'm not trying to attack you or anything but you do seem to have a very stereotypical view against some 'emos'
.



That's not true by the slightest. As I said before, that's stereotyping.
There is no 'point' to any subculture.
Subcultures exist to in an away, show who you are. But every subculture has been stereotyped and some in a bad way. 'Emo' for example has taken the worst.



What if they started attacking you as a subculture? You would mind then.
You have to think of it as people as a whole.



I wouldn't know much about that as I like in the UK, but this is the reason the world is divided. Always trying to turn thing into competitions.

Most 'emos' are very successful and the majority of them leave school with high grades.
He did say normally he's not big on stereotyping. Read carefully!

Regarding this topic, I can understand why but it might be a little drastic. But I can totally undertand where they are coming from.

twocows

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You say your not big on stereotyping, but you've done it right now.
Which is why I said normally. This is an exception to the rule, hence why I brought it up.

I'm not trying to attack you or anything but you do seem to have a very stereotypical view against some 'emos'.
Because that's been the whole established point of the "subculture" as far as I've seen. I have not seen anyone who follows this subculture who hasn't fit the stereotype, and moreover, the whole thing arose out of a bunch of angsty teenagers.

That's not true by the slightest. As I said before, that's stereotyping.
Being a stereotype does not make something false. Stereotypes generally come from somewhere and even the most offensive ones will fit a few people. In this case, it fits every single person I have ever met belonging to that subculture.
There is no 'point' to any subculture.
Subcultures exist to in an away, show who you are.
That sounds like a point to me. They're showing that they're angsty teens who think their lives of luxury are just the worst thing ever.
But every subculture has been stereotyped and some in a bad way.
Again, that doesn't make it untrue. Are you next going to tell me that saying hippies are anti-war is an offensive stereotype and thus untrue when the whole movement arose out of anti-war sentiment?

What if they started attacking you as a subculture? You would mind then.
You have to think of it as people as a whole.
I define myself as an individual, not as part of a "subculture" of any sort. You should watch the movie "The Breakfast Club." People generalize and group people together in various ways, and that's often wrong. Someone might think I'm part of the "nerd" culture, but I'm a far more complex individual than just some label.

The difference between me and an "emo" is that they specifically label themselves like that. They're asking me to generalize and stereotype them by assigning themselves that label. If I met a person who did a few things that "emos" also do but identified himself as completely unique and not connected to that movement, I wouldn't group him in with other "emos."


I wouldn't know much about that as I like in the UK, but this is the reason the world is divided. Always trying to turn thing into competitions.
There will always be someone who has it worse than you. Every single person on this planet has problems, and even some of the people you know will probably have more problems in one year than you'll have in your lifetime. Giving up and separating yourself from society because you hit a few snags in life is an insult to the trials of those who have it worse. I have plenty of problems; at this point in time, I'm even running into some that I'm afraid I won't be able to overcome. And yet I still manage to lead a normal life and enjoy myself because I know there are those who are physically unable to do the same. If I can't bring happiness to everyone, at the very least I don't want to squander the chances I've been given.

Most 'emos' are very successful and the majority of them leave school with high grades.
Now that's just hypocrisy. You're allowed to stereotype but I'm not? I haven't seen that at all. Even if it is true, it doesn't change the fact that every single one I've met thinks they're the only one in the world that has problems.
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Which is why I said normally. This is an exception to the rule, hence why I brought it up.
My mistake. Over read.

Because that's been the whole established point of the "subculture" as far as I've seen. I have not seen anyone who follows this subculture who hasn't fit the stereotype, and moreover, the whole thing arose out of a bunch of angsty teenagers.
I used to label myself as an 'emo' when I was about 13-14 but I never was the one to to think that I was the only one with problems. I used to like the style (E.g. Clothes, Music...) but just because I labeled myself one doesn't mean I was always depressed and always to hurt myself.

Also, you have to consider mental issues they might have. I suffer from depression. But the problem we have is, you can't be a depressed 'chav' (don't know what you call them, skinheads I think =S) 'cause otherwise that type of subculture wouldn't accept you (Was using 'chav', 'skinhead' as an example, not actually aiming at them). So your only option is to adapt to a new subculture where people accept you for who you are.]
I can tell you I've had experience of it.

Because that's been the whole established point of the "subculture" as far as I've seen
You have to actually mingle with the subcultures to get a better understanding and to actually realize that these 'sterotypes' are out-of-date.
From what you've said, people have said their 'emo', and automatically you have stereotyped them. Have you got to know some of them completely? Not just heard one story and assumed?

Being a stereotype does not make something false. Stereotypes generally come from somewhere and even the most offensive ones will fit a few people. In this case, it fits every single person I have ever met belonging to that subculture.
I agree with you on the first two points but I do not agree with your last. It may fit every person you have met, but it doesn't fit everyone in the 'emo' subculture.

I define myself as an individual, not as part of a "subculture" of any sort. You should watch the movie "The Breakfast Club." People generalize and group people together in various ways, and that's often wrong. Someone might think I'm part of the "nerd" culture, but I'm a far more complex individual than just some label.
Everyone should define themselves as individuals but most people don't know how to. They don't understand individuality, they only see groups. (when I say they, I don't mean the whole subculture, just mainly kids).
And my question doesn't just go against stereotypes, it's aimed at everyone. So basically the question would be, Would you be p**sed if the government was trying to control your life by not letting you do the things you enjoy?
You would be p**sed. It goes against your freedom as a human being.

The difference between me and an "emo" is that they specifically label themselves like that. They're asking me to generalize and stereotype them by assigning themselves that label. If I met a person who did a few things that "emos" also do but identified himself as completely unique and not connected to that movement, I wouldn't group him in with other "emos."
The label is just a word. Just because they say they are 'emo' doesn't mean they are the stereotype. Your assuming they are the stereotype. And they are not asking you to do anything. You are saying it to yourself.
I do agree with your second statement here though.


There will always be someone who has it worse than you. Every single person on this planet has problems, and even some of the people you know will probably have more problems in one year than you'll have in your lifetime. Giving up and separating yourself from society because you hit a few snags in life is an insult to the trials of those who have it worse. I have plenty of problems; at this point in time, I'm even running into some that I'm afraid I won't be able to overcome. And yet I still manage to lead a normal life and enjoy myself because I know there are those who are physically unable to do the same. If I can't bring happiness to everyone, at the very least I don't want to squander the chances I've been given.
But do you have to turn it into a competition? It's not a competition to find out who has the most problems. Everyone does have problems, I agree. I even have some problems myself that are extremely difficult to get out of and I try to keep me and my family as happy as I can make them. I agree that they shouldn't turn and run from their problems but the majority of 'emos' are just kids who don't understand how to deal with real life issues. I used to run from all my problems but eventually, I had to stand in front of them and deal with them. You learn that way.

Now that's just hypocrisy. You're allowed to stereotype but I'm not? I haven't seen that at all. Even if it is true, it doesn't change the fact that every single one I've met thinks they're the only one in the world that has problems.
It's not hypocrisy. Being a successful 'emo' is not stereotyping. Maybe things are different between the USA and the UK. The majority of 'emos', 'goths' and 'rockers' leave school with A*-B grades. Some end up in successful bands. E.G. Black Veil Brides, Finch, Hawthorne Heights and many more...
But again, you've only met stereotypical 'emos'.

'Emo' is a phase that some people go through in their life as kids. Many grow out of it, some keep the style, but the point is, just because some people call themselves an 'emo', doesn't necessarily mean they are the stereotyped 'emo'.
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twocows

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You have to actually mingle with the subcultures to get a better understanding and to actually realize that these 'sterotypes' are out-of-date.
From what you've said, people have said their 'emo', and automatically you have stereotyped them. Have you got to know some of them completely? Not just heard one story and assumed?
I can only speak for the ones I've met. It's quite possible that it's just different where I live. I was just of the understanding that the definition of "emo" involved being depressed about everything.

Everyone should define themselves as individuals but most people don't know how to. They don't understand individuality, they only see groups. (when I say they, I don't mean the whole subculture, just mainly kids).
The correct action, then, is to encourage people to be strong individuals and not define themselves in group terms.
And my question doesn't just go against stereotypes, it's aimed at everyone. So basically the question would be, Would you be p**sed if the government was trying to control your life by not letting you do the things you enjoy?
You would be p**sed. It goes against your freedom as a human being.
Sure, but there is a line. For instance, what if I enjoyed walking around in the nude? Is the government right to limit that? Why? The relevant question here is, does the limitation significantly impact one group's way of life and does it significantly enhance everyone else's? Going nude in public is quite disgusting to the rest of us and limiting them to their own "camps" (or just not doing it) doesn't significantly impact their way of life. "Emo" culture doesn't really negatively impact the rest of us (for the most part, though I do find it annoying), but do these laws really significantly impact these kids? I guess what I'm saying is, is it really a big deal?


The label is just a word. Just because they say they are 'emo' doesn't mean they are the stereotype. Your assuming they are the stereotype. And they are not asking you to do anything. You are saying it to yourself.
The word itself is a stereotype. Stereotype literally means "a simplified image." When you define yourself in group terms like this, you're doing exactly that: concocting a simplified image for yourself.

Also, just because it bothers me: your is possessive, you're is a contraction for "you are." It should be "you're assuming."


But do you have to turn it into a competition? It's not a competition to find out who has the most problems.
The point is that you should be able to overcome those problems because there are people with far worse problems who are doing the same.

It's not hypocrisy. Being a successful 'emo' is not stereotyping. Maybe things are different between the USA and the UK. The majority of 'emos', 'goths' and 'rockers' leave school with A*-B grades. Some end up in successful bands. E.G. Black Veil Brides, Finch, Hawthorne Heights and many more...
But again, you've only met stereotypical 'emos'.

'Emo' is a phase that some people go through in their life as kids. Many grow out of it, some keep the style, but the point is, just because some people call themselves an 'emo', doesn't necessarily mean they are the stereotyped 'emo'.
Hypocrisy is a bit strong. Anyway, you were basically saying that most emos end up successful. That's a generalization (one with no numbers to back it up, but I won't belabor that point). The reason I said that was hypocritical was because you called me out for making generalizations in the same sort of way: saying the majority of emos think their problems are worse than the rest of ours. Maybe mine is only true where I live and for those I've met, but none of the emo kids I remember from high school went on to be successful, and many dropped out. Yours is also a generalization and is no more universally true than mine.

Shining Raichu

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Personally, I can't fathom the existence of a world in which both depression and slushies exist, but it seems I'm living in it so that's just something I'm going to have to make peace with.

More on topic, as annoying or obnoxious as emos can be, it's not at all acceptable to create a law that restricts their right to do as they like. Unless there is something inherent within the emo subculture that directly harms others, it's not right. Even then, it's only then acceptable to make a law against that specific aspect. So, what is it about the emos that's harming people? Is it the fingernail painting? The piercings? Black hair?

Unless they can pinpoint what, as they said, "may encourage depression, social withdrawal and even suicide" - and you have to love the level of research and certainty that went into these allegations - then this is simply not OK.
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lacella

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honestly they sound like a group of worried parents who don't know how to help their kid.

this is a weird act. it's addressing the symptom and not the actual issue. the issue isn't the subculture itself or the way they dress. the issue is the youth population experiencing depression, etc. people identify with particular groups for reasons that existed before they knew of the group itself. find out why the younger generation has so many issues with mental health and treat that -- instead of banning a subculture. they'll just make another one anyway.

great job, russian government, u is smrt.

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Problem: The emo subculture is correlated with but not actually directly related to actual emos.

Actually being emo is bad, mmkay. (Though, even then, they're not really handling it right.)

Being part of the emo subculture is just banal and not worth anyone's attention.
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honestly they sound like a group of worried parents who don't know how to help their kid.

this is a weird act. it's addressing the symptom and not the actual issue. the issue isn't the subculture itself or the way they dress. the issue is the youth population experiencing depression, etc. people identify with particular groups for reasons that existed before they knew of the group itself. find out why the younger generation has so many issues with mental health and treat that -- instead of banning a subculture. they'll just make another one anyway.

great job, russian government, u is smrt.
This is really well put and I agree. But I can see where they're coming from - I used to think I had "OMG SRS PROBLEMS", dressed in black, had my hair in my eyes, etc. Instead of being smacked into getting through my mini-problems, people that "identified" with that subculture coddled me and let me wallow in my own issues, getting more and more depressed with life and such. The attitude of the people around you affects your own; if you're upset and instead of being cheered up, your friends are all also depressed and you all just wallow together, you never do get through it. While I agree that the "emo" subculture is a symptom and not the cause, I feel that it is a catalyst for the problem and that it wouldn't be so widespread without the culture there to encourage you to just whine about the issues instead of trying to solve them or getting help.

I still don't feel it's the place of government to handle it though; it should be the place of families and friends and community leaders to discourage the attitude of "LOOK AT ME I HAVE PROBLEMS" and encourage the problem-solving, mature attitude that follows once someone decides they're tired of being "emo kids".


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lacella

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This is really well put and I agree. But I can see where they're coming from - I used to think I had "OMG SRS PROBLEMS", dressed in black, had my hair in my eyes, etc. Instead of being smacked into getting through my mini-problems, people that "identified" with that subculture coddled me and let me wallow in my own issues, getting more and more depressed with life and such. The attitude of the people around you affects your own; if you're upset and instead of being cheered up, your friends are all also depressed and you all just wallow together, you never do get through it. While I agree that the "emo" subculture is a symptom and not the cause, I feel that it is a catalyst for the problem and that it wouldn't be so widespread without the culture there to encourage you to just whine about the issues instead of trying to solve them or getting help.

I still don't feel it's the place of government to handle it though; it should be the place of families and friends and community leaders to discourage the attitude of "LOOK AT ME I HAVE PROBLEMS" and encourage the problem-solving, mature attitude that follows once someone decides they're tired of being "emo kids".
"instead of getting smacked through". hahaha.

lmao, yeah, actually i do find it endearing that they're trying. kind of goes back to the parent analysis -- you know they just want the best. but it's such a risky way to handle things, sometimes opposition can fire up a subculture into a movement. which... i definitely don't want to see revenge of the emos. no offense to emos.

in any case, i totally think you're right about the family and friends. the government has enough power to properly educate family and friends about how to help support depressed loved ones (instead of being like: WANTED: REPORT ALL EMOS). and honestly, i hope they do sometime, and not just in russia. i feel like its a global thing concerning people my age and younger. but that's straying off the topic!