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  #76    
Old March 21st, 2012 (3:08 PM).
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    Quote:
    The only thing Cynthia has to worry about from Steven is Claydol..I don't see how Steven is so close to Cynthia.

    I was thinking about my own experience with Steven for a moment. Apart from Cynthia I had the most trouble with him, in Emerald I mean. Probably because my Pokémon were at least twenty levels behind.

    Lucario could take down Armaldo with Stone Edge in Platinum. In Diamond and Pearl he doesn't have that move yet but Gastrodon does. Milotic and Gastrodon would both be able to take it down with Surf and Muddy Water respectively. Armaldo is also weak to Steel type attacks, but Cynthia's pokémon don't have those, so Water and Rock should do for now.

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    If Steven had that full team in other media as did Cynthia, who would win? Actually, if all the Champions had their in-game teams in other media, who would be victorious?

    This is such a difficult question. If we talk about the anime, anything could happen. We saw Cynthia's Garchomp sweep entire teams, even those of Sinnoh's own Elite Four. We also saw that same Garchomp almost defeated by Paul's Torterra, Chimchar and Sneasel.
    It all comes down to strategy, good trustworthy Pokémon and believe it or not, a good dose of luck. You need to be able to pull off the right moves at the right time.
    You also have to take into account that moves work differently in the anime and levels and abilities don't count (for the most part).
    In short, I have absolutely no idea who would be the strongest in the anime (I don't really know about the Manga though). Anyone could win, even Alder (though I still vote for Cynthia).

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      #77    
    Old March 21st, 2012 (3:21 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Buzz Buzz View Post
      This is such a difficult question. If we talk about the anime, anything could happen. We saw Cynthia's Garchomp sweep entire teams, even those of Sinnoh's own Elite Four. We also saw that same Garchomp almost defeated by Paul's Torterra, Chimchar and Sneasel.
      Boo, cop-out answer. The point of the question was to get you to stop thinking so close to in-game, all about weaknesses and moves, and think more logically. I find that the anime battling world and the manga battling world is a lot more interesting to debate about. Not because anything can happen, since there is some clear canon involved and you can assume a lot, except for those champions that barely got a mention. Like Steven for instance. Abilities do count a lot in battles, so I don't know where you're getting that from. Moves do virtually the same things, except more because they more depth to work with.

      And that Garchomp destroyed Paul, every time. I have no idea where you got the connotation that it would faint at all, except for maybe against his Torterra. Cynthia allowed it to take the hits and it redoubled and demolished Paul.

        #78    
      Old March 21st, 2012 (3:37 PM).
      Cosmotone8 Cosmotone8 is offline
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        Steven hardly appeared battling in the anime... sigh... Why is he so underrated? I still think that he might be able to give Cynthia a run for her money, even beat her.

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          #79    
        Old March 22nd, 2012 (9:14 AM).
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          Quote:
          Boo, cop-out answer. The point of the question was to get you to stop thinking so close to in-game, all about weaknesses and moves, and think more logically. I find that the anime battling world and the manga battling world is a lot more interesting to debate about. Not because anything can happen, since there is some clear canon involved and you can assume a lot, except for those champions that barely got a mention. Like Steven for instance. Abilities do count a lot in battles, so I don't know where you're getting that from. Moves do virtually the same things, except more because they more depth to work with.

          First of all, I didn't mean abilities didn't count. I probably worded it quite bad, but some abilities do in the anime what should be logical. Take Froslass for example, one of its abilities in-game is Snow Cloak (yes, I know I'm thinking about the games again, sorry) which raises its evasion in hail. When it starts snowing in the anime it is not more than logical Froslass won't be visible, same with Garchomp and Sand Veil and other Pokémon. Most abilities do get used, abilities like Run Away and others don't really count in my opinion because they aren't used in the anime and there's no need for them (as far as I know).
          Moves do indeed get more depth, some don't and even lose some of their depth. The most famous example being Dig which can be used while surfing in the games and clearly cannot be used in the anime like that.
          As for Garchomp vs. Paul I need to apologize again for my bad wording. I merely meant that Paul being fairly 'lower' than Cynthia managed to deal at least some damage to Garchomp. I know that Paul already traveled Kanto, Johto and Hoenn but Cynthia is the champion and Paul did mention he didn't win anything in those regions. Cynthia allowing Garchomp to take hits can be true, but one has to admit she didn't expect Paul to use his Torterra like that. She was genuinely surprised.

          I agree that anime battling (don't know about the manga) is a lot more interesting to talk about than game battling. When I write out Pokémon battle scenes for stories I always use the anime, never the games, just because there is so much depth.
          I would go in great detail and analyze every champion vs. champion battle in anime style if I didn't think it would take up too much space.

          One thing I don't really get is how 'logical' would differ so much from thinking about 'moves and weaknesses'. To me weaknesses and moves mean Fire loses to Water due to Pokémon X using Water Gun on Pokémon Y. Logical simply means (to me) that a trainer would use Water Gun and not some Grass type move on a Fire Pokémon. Unless you mean to think about setting too. Like how you shouldn't be able to battle with a Fire Pokémon while surfing because he'd simply not be able to stand the water and faint instantly.

          Sorry for apparently not answering the question. I hope this explained what I meant a bit, but if it didn't feel free to say so (or if I said something completely and horribly wrong)

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            #80    
          Old March 22nd, 2012 (1:51 PM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Buzz Buzz View Post
            Most abilities do get used, abilities like Run Away and others don't really count in my opinion because they aren't used in the anime and there's no need for them (as far as I know).
            And the number of abilities like Run Away, Pick-up, and Gluttony are hardly common, so there isn't much of them at all. So you said earlier, "Most abilities don't count", and I had a bone with that. Yeah, a wording issue on your part.

            However, moves still get depth. Now that there is more logic involved, of course some moves can't be used in specific situations. But you're still ignoring the fact that when you use Dig, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to attack. For example, in the battle against Paul in the Lily of the Valley Conference, Ash had Infernape use Dig and Flare Blitz so that the toxic spikes were neutralized. The example you used isn't about depth; it's about adding in some logic.

            And of course Paul would land a hit on Garchomp. I think that Torterra had one good, clean hit on it that whole battle, and it still wasn't enough to actually do any substantial damage. Garchomp still demolished his team. That doesn't speak much about Cynthia, except that she'll destroy any kid's team. This is useful for a comparison, mainly Alder. Alder used a Bouffalant against Ash's Pikachu. True, Bouffalant pretty much went on its own instincts and held its own against Pikachu, but never went so far as to defeat it. It was pretty evenly matched and I can only imagine Bouffalant would have beat it if Alder didn't decide to take a nap. Either way, it's hard to debate about a possibility, but I still consider Alder to be weaker than Cynthia. I fully believe Garchomp would have beat Pikachu in that same situation.

            Weaknesses are different in the anime. Why? Because so many battles were played with a type advantage, but they still lost. Or conversely, a Pokemon with the type weakness still won. Pikachu uses Thunderbolt on countless Pokemon despite them being immune to it, specifically Ground-type Pokemon. And this does occur with other Pokemon. So weaknesses play a much less significant role in battling, even if it is a factor. Actually, it still is a factor but not as large.

              #81    
            Old March 23rd, 2012 (8:11 AM).
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              Quote:
              However, moves still get depth. Now that there is more logic involved, of course some moves can't be used in specific situations. But you're still ignoring the fact that when you use Dig, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to attack. For example, in the battle against Paul in the Lily of the Valley Conference, Ash had Infernape use Dig and Flare Blitz so that the toxic spikes were neutralized. The example you used isn't about depth; it's about adding in some logic.

              Yeah sorry, I have a tendency to not answer the question asked and just write some thoughts of mine on any matter, be it closely related or not.

              So, I'm actually wondering, who do you think would win? Cynthia or someone else?

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                #82    
              Old March 23rd, 2012 (3:17 PM).
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                I kind of like to lean on Lance, since he's a bit underrated and went unmentioned in this conversation. He's a pretty good battler and from the anime, he had a lot of noteworthy Pokemon and it's obvious he's strong. But I don't remember if the anime clearly stated that he was the Champion or not. Anyway, from the manga, he had a lot of powerful Pokemon during the end of the first arc of the Pokemon Special manga, though he did eventually lose.

                Conversely, Cynthia has made a lot of anime appearances and is shown to be a really competent battler. So I think she wins in that department, but in the manga, she loses to Cyrus. I guess Cynthia would still beat Lance in the anime, though in the manga, I'm favoring Lance in that battle. The other Champions aren't too noteworthy in those regards, partially because their anime appearances are either nonexistent or slim, so I think the only competition is between Cynthia, Lance, and Alder. And I don't count Alder that much since he's too much of a hippie.

                  #83    
                Old March 23rd, 2012 (5:01 PM).
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                  Anime-wise, we have seen less of Steven, so yeh. he sucks in that area. ****hia and Lance are both shown to be good battlers, though Lance's battling style was more old-school. If Lance's team could be updated to include real dragons, like Garchomp or Haxorus, it would be an epic battle between Cynthia and Lance. i mean, bothj are really mighty in their own right, and each has their own niche to fulfill. I am favoring Cynthia, but I am guessing if this battle happens in the anime, it will be a big tie.

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                    #84    
                  Old March 23rd, 2012 (5:23 PM).
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                    Woah, I never looked at it like that. That would be epic. But I think Red would still win if he evolved Pikachu because of the fact that his team is the most balanced.

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                      #85    
                    Old March 24th, 2012 (4:25 AM).
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                      In the anime, Red is Ash. I don't have high hopes for him... even though he does have a balance team and all, he isn't at that Champion level. In the manga, I guess Red would be one of the strongest. He's resourceful and yes, his team is quite balanced. But just because his team is balanced doesn't mean too much in other media; only in the games does it hold significance. In terms of battling, I'd definitely put Red up there. He did beat a few Elite Four members before he got injured, so he has a chance.

                      Anyway, this topic looks like it's nearly dried up D:

                      Do you think Frontier Brains are as strong as the Elite Four or even Champions?

                        #86    
                      Old March 24th, 2012 (5:26 PM).
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                        I don't really think so. Maybe Palmer, but other than that I say no. They all excel in their own certian fields, but I dont think they would win in a regular battle.

                        Also, New POTW!

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                          #87    
                        Old March 24th, 2012 (7:10 PM).
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                          Yay, Togekiss!

                          Anyway, I think Brandon deserves some kind of mention. He has a nice plethora of strong Pokemon and I thought he was a difficult Frontier Brain, not to mention his facility was hell. It was still fun though. In the anime, Ash took what, three tries to finally beat him?

                            #88    
                          Old March 24th, 2012 (11:00 PM).
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                            Let's see. Several of the Frontier brains could actually give people a challenge as much as a normal gym Leader could, but when they are compared to the E4 and the champion, very few could be of that level. Bolded in are the ones that are comparable to them.

                            Anabel could be one. She possesses three legendary Pokemon plus a freaking Snorlax. This alone could gauge her ability as in par with... Wallace at the very least.

                            Brandon has two sets of legendary trio. If it is not powerful enough, [considering anime-wise] I do not know what is.

                            Palmer is the best of all the brains. I mean, look. He chooses nicely, employs different tactics, and is really strong. Plus he has the legendaries.

                            Dahlia has a good team, plus it is coupled with good attacks.

                            Darach I am not quite so sure. I could not judge him by the looks of his team, so yeah. Mixed emotions here.

                            Spencer is meh. His team has just too many drawbacks. Also is Noland, Argenta and Thorton. Do they even have their own Pokemon? Noland could pose a trouble with his Articuno but I am not sure. Tucker is just happy, though I compliment him on his choice of Pokemon. Same thing with Greta and Lucy.

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                              #89    
                            Old March 25th, 2012 (5:09 AM).
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                              I was wondering if you could include Darach, and I was tempted to mention him. He does work for Caitlin, who is an Elite Four member, so I'd imagine he would have a lot of battle experience backed up with those claims. Not to mention his Entei...

                                #90    
                              Old March 25th, 2012 (6:26 AM).
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                                Palmer would make a rather enjoyable champion is you ask me, has a rather decent team when you fight him as a Frontier Brain and he can be rather challenging too. Same goes for Dahlia and maybe Thorton as potential E4 members too.

                                  #91    
                                Old March 26th, 2012 (3:53 PM).
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                                  I could only see Palmer as an elite four member. Not really a champion for me for some reason.

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                                    #92    
                                  Old March 27th, 2012 (1:01 PM).
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                                    I bet Palmer would give Cynthia a run for her money. His Pokemon are pretty strong and his team could take down Cynthia's just as easily her's could take down his.

                                      #93    
                                    Old March 27th, 2012 (1:05 PM).
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                                      Speaking of Palmer vs Cynthia, I can actually see Palmer coming out on top in all honesty since Cynthia isn't as threatening without her Milotic and Garchomp and Palmer can handle those Pokes with his Cresselia and Regigigas respectively if you ask me lol.

                                        #94    
                                      Old March 27th, 2012 (1:07 PM).
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                                        Yeah, but the problem with Regigigas is Slow Start and that really brings it down. If it can last, then that thing alone will dismantle Cynthia's team.

                                          #95    
                                        Old March 27th, 2012 (1:11 PM).
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                                          Gotta agree there tbh but the least Regigigas can do to Cynthia's Garchomp or any of her Pokes is weaken one of them like Garchomp for example to where another one of Palmer's Pokes that has reasonable bulk like Milotic, Cresselia, Rhyperior, or Dragonite can KO it the next turn although the last 2 options there do risk a OHKO sadly.

                                            #96    
                                          Old March 27th, 2012 (1:32 PM).
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                                            Definitely. Garchomp could take Dragonite, but the battle would be deathly close. It would be like that for the majority of the battle in my opinion. He totally could beat Cynthia. Their teams practically counter each other.

                                              #97    
                                            Old March 27th, 2012 (1:36 PM).
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                                              I'd kill to see a match like that in all honesty lol.

                                              That and I just imagined Platinum if Palmer was the Champion and Cynthia was the FB of the Battle Tower instead lol.

                                                #98    
                                              Old March 27th, 2012 (1:38 PM).
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                                                Haha, I can't imagine Cynthia as a Tower Tycoon or anything. She reminds me of Steven, but instead of rocks, she likes mythology. I bet she'd travel around and research. But that would totally make Platinum a lot more interesting, especially if you could see Barry battle and lose against his father.

                                                  #99    
                                                Old March 27th, 2012 (1:45 PM).
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                                                  Tbh I was thinking that too after a few seconds, I can imagine finding Cynthia at the Distortion World again after getting through the Turnback Cave though and possibly battling her there after hearing some words from her regarding the last time you and her were in the Distortion World or something along those lines lol.

                                                    #100    
                                                  Old March 27th, 2012 (1:49 PM).
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                                                    They should totally do that, if they remake it. Cynthia in the Distortion World sounds creepy, but I bet she'd find Cyrus and they can keep each other company for a while haha. That sounds so... Cynthia-y. I'd hope that she'd have a ridiculously over leveled team.

                                                     
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