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  #26    
Old April 17th, 2013 (5:01 PM).
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Why are they hugging each other and all at the end?
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  #27    
Old April 17th, 2013 (5:20 PM). Edited April 17th, 2013 by Dakotah.
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    If I had more thumbs they'd all be raised in congratulations to the people of New Zealand. A great thing has happened today!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ♣Gawain♣ View Post
    I don't approve in such practice, I'm sory to say. I don't mean to critisize you all, but I hate such practices that becomes taboo in the world. It destroys the meaning of marriage. What I hope and pray is that the other nations wouldn't follow.
    You know what happens to people who wish to restrict rights of others? Their wishes get denied. I guess this means I won't be seeing you at World Pride 2014 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada (a country where same-sex couples can get married). It's a shame. Because maybe if you saw these people celebrating in the streets for the acceptance they've earned and the equality they obtained, you might just begin singing another tune. The majority of people attending Pride aren't even a part of the LGBT community! They're friends and family, and supporters from all over the world.

    it is my hope that the song of bigotry, fear and divisiveness gets forever drowned out by the song of love, acceptance and inclusiveness. Gawain, the song you are singing is quickly dying. It's time to join us in the present. You only need to take that one step through the door. Won't you try?

    Edit: oh, and there is no single meaning of marriage. That is because for every couple that is married, there is a different meaning. What a couple's marriage means to them is different from what their neighbours' meaning of marriage is to them. You can't assign a meaning to marriage, because you can't make people conform to a single ideal, no matter how much you wish otherwise.
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      #28    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (5:27 PM).
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    Quote:
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    Why are they hugging each other and all at the end?
    Because when you legalize love, you spread love.
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      #29    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (5:32 PM).
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    No, I mean what are the political significances of the MPs involved? Are they crossing the aisle and hugging despite voting in opposite directions? Because I think that would be meaningful.
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      #30    
    Old April 17th, 2013 (5:33 PM).
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      Very well said, Toujours. I whole heartedly agree. I bet this world would be a much better place if people would take the time to hug someone.

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      Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
      No, I mean what are the political significances of the MPs involved? Are they crossing the aisle and hugging despite voting in opposite directions? Because I think that would be meaningful.
      Nothing political about it. But it does bring a tear to my eye. Again. Way to go New Zealand!
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        #31    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (5:45 PM).
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      Okay I just wiki'd what the NZ HoR looks like and it seems that the National Party (conservatives) are going across to congratulate those in the Labour Party. Also some National Party MP thought the party got too rough and he excused himself from the room.

      It's significant because there are 121 seats, 77 of whom voted yes, and there are only 59 National MP's, so evidently some of them supported the bill. So now the video makes a lot more sense.
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        #32    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (5:56 PM).
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      There doesn't need to be a reason to hug, especially a political one. Toujours pretty much said it better than I could.
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        #33    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:01 PM).
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      well, sorry but i don't approve that too..Marriage means family..how does people from the same gender make families?? and in they adopted children how will they raise em??

      not to mention that i don't see how a people from the same gender feel attracted to each others tbh!
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        #34    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:04 PM).
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      Do you also believe infertile women should not get married either? What about women that are past menopause, or couples that don't want children at all?
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        #35    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:07 PM).
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      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Sydian View Post
      There doesn't need to be a reason to hug, especially a political one. Toujours pretty much said it better than I could.
      I would predict those who hugged to be conservative politicians who voted for the bill, and the MP's that left the room were the ones too offended by the vote result. I'm only trying to be realistic here - they're showing their solidarity even though they might have not voted as the rest of their party has. It's not a big deal, but isn't it sugarcoating it to say there wasn't a political motivation? These MP's were probably really stressed out against the flow to their party - their careers may have been at stake. I'm just trying to add some context to the video, and you don't have to feel that what I'm saying is taking anything away from what's happening.
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        #36    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:07 PM).
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      It saddens me a that a thread that should be a celebration of equality is just slowly going to turn into a gay rights debate. Can't D&D have a happy thread for once? Just once is all I'm asking.
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        #37    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:14 PM).
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      Well, this is discussions and debates I support anybody who has anything negative to say about this, even if I don't agree with them. Happy threads don't belong in D&D. To not debate would be to defeat the purpose of this forum. Where would those who have contrary opinions express their feelings if not here? We can have a feel-good thread somewhere else.
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        #38    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:17 PM).
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      Quote:
      Well, this is discussions and debates I support anybody who has anything negative to say about this, even if I don't agree with them. Happy threads don't belong in D&D. To not debate would be to defeat the purpose of this forum. Where would those who have contrary opinions express their feelings if not here? We can have a feel-good thread somewhere else.
      Discussions and Debates. We can discuss things and not have to constantly slap each other with our beliefs. The forum name doesn't say "Debate Or Die" which is surely what it feels like at times.

      Chris, I guess you should have posted this thread in Celebrations. lol
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        #39    
      Old April 17th, 2013 (6:27 PM).
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        Feel-Good Thread Right Here

        @Broken_Arrow

        And imo, marriage =\= family. Marriage is a means to unite two people who desire to spend their lives together and share their wealth, experiences and, well, everything.

        You do not need to be married to start a family. I can attest to that by experience (parents unmarried and never were), and as could studies showing out-of-wedlock babies have grown extravagantly in the last few decades.

        Marriage also does not mean love. A lot of marriages are loveless, and it's unfortunate.

        Now, adopting children... That's a whole other topic than homosexual marriage. Now we have to take into account how a child develops having been raised by homosexual parents. Since homosexual relations is just recently a "public" appearance (most people a decade or so would've hid rather than expose their sexual preferences! Not to mention in the 1950s and before, it was a huge offense! Again, see Milk.), there isn't enough information on how children are affected by it.

        If it turns out the effects are negative, then I would be against it, because the rights of the child surpass those of the want-to-be parents. Overall, we have to protect the child's best interests because in that kind of situation, the children cannot escape and are forced to live in such an environment until they are at least eighteen. Negative effects for me would entail social complexes such as unable to differentiate between genders or unable to communicate needs or wants properly. Again, nothing has been really done in studies, so I'm just naming could-be's and not stuff that's actually proven.

        However, if children are not negatively affected by having homosexual parents - and it is proven through studies, nyaa - then let it be so. I don't see any issues with it unless it's going to hurt the child in question.

        At this point, I can't see it hurting children except by not having one figure or another in their lives. I have seen studies that show that children benefit more from having a mother and father of the respective genders because mothers are better at some things and fathers at others; however, if the child has homosexual parents who act as we stereotype fathers and mothers to act, then again, I don't see how it could have any sort of negative effect... Other than, you know, prejudice at school. But kids will always find something to pick on another kid about: their name, their class, their hair. It really isn't anything new.

        That's a whole different topic, though. Just felt that that should've been explained for Broken_Arrow.

        /end-somewhat-off topic
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          #40    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (6:28 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Toujours View Post
        Do you also believe infertile women should not get married either? What about women that are past menopause, or couples that don't want children at all?
        right now infertile women found ways to have children so it's not big deal now...and menopause!they had their chance to have kids but they decided not to!

        can two married guys raise a girl?? can they raise a guy? he will be adopted ..what grant one of them won't be attracted to him!! and same goes with females too

        if they decided not to have children what's the point of getting married then!!! either way they're in a relationship and it doesn't matter!

        i find it weird to see people from the same gender said to be married!
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          #41    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (6:30 PM).
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        To be honest, there wasn't much discussion, let alone debate going on here until those with opposing opinions pitched in. If you want to keep it happy, it deserves to be moved into Celebrations. Otherwise our nature will have its way and this thread will become the product of the forum it's in.
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          #42    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (6:34 PM).
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        Quote:
        right now infertile women found ways to have children so it's not big deal now...and menopause!they had their chance to have kids but they decided not to!
        Link me to this way. I would LOVE to know. I'm sure it's very expensive and not readily available to the average woman though. And that's a bit mean to say about post-menopausal women. Maybe they didn't find the one till afterwards and never had the chance to have their own child in the environment they wanted.

        Quote:
        can two married guys raise a girl?? can they raise a guy? he will be adopted ..what grant one of them won't be attracted to him!! and same goes with females too
        Yes. It's been proven. I don't know what "what grant one of them won't be attracted to him" is supposed to mean, though.

        Quote:
        if they decided not to have children what's the point of getting married then!!! either way they're in a relationship and it doesn't matter!
        Because people love each other and want the legal binding. There are things that would prevent someone other than a spouse from doing something, like certain hospital visitations. And you also have to consider death. If one passes and they're not married, there may be things that don't legally allow the widow to receive anything, and what if the couple is elderly and the widow can't do much to support their self?

        Quote:
        i find it weird to see people from the same gender said to be married!
        And I find it weird that people, straight or gay, would even want to have sex. Doesn't mean I should stop people from having sex or yell at them about it.

        Quote:
        To be honest, there wasn't much discussion, let alone debate going on here until those with opposing opinions pitched in. If you want to keep it happy, it deserves to be moved into Celebrations. Otherwise our nature will have its way and this thread will become the product of the forum it's in.
        Or if it keeps getting into the family argument, apparently haha. It's not my thread or my forum though. Can't put this in Celebrations. ;) Though I have to wonder how the CCP mods would feel if someone made this type of thread in there. I don't have a problem with the differing opinions though, but some of them have just been expressed so...badly, so to speak. In such a way that the phrase "if you can't say anything nice, don't say nothin' at all" comes to mind. But that's just me. Of course people are gonna be nice, rude, crude, nude, etc wherever they want.
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          #43    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (6:34 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Yusshin View Post
        Feel-Good Thread Right Here

        @Broken_Arrow

        And imo, marriage =\= family. Marriage is a means to unite two people who desire to spend their lives together and share their wealth, experiences and, well, everything.

        You do not need to be married to start a family. I can attest to that by experience (parents unmarried and never were), and as could studies showing out-of-wedlock babies have grown extravagantly in the last few decades.

        Marriage also does not mean love. A lot of marriages are loveless, and it's unfortunate.



        That's a whole different topic, though. Just felt that that should've been explained for Broken_Arrow.

        /end-somewhat-off topic
        1- according to my traditions and religion.. YES! you need to be married to start a family

        2-loveless marrige is hell and no point of it

        i do agree that marrige isn't about family only ..love,happiness and sharing good and bad times with a person you want to be with but also children as people say are fruits of love lol couldn't find a better expression tbh! lol

        thanks for the information though
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          #44    
        Old April 17th, 2013 (6:35 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Broken_Arrow View Post
          right now infertile women found ways to have children so it's not big deal now...and menopause!they had their chance to have kids but they decided not to!

          can two married guys raise a girl?? can they raise a guy? he will be adopted ..what grant one of them won't be attracted to him!! and same goes with females too

          if they decided not to have children what's the point of getting married then!!! either way they're in a relationship and it doesn't matter!

          i find it weird to see people from the same gender said to be married!
          I get the feeling you're treating homosexuals as lesser humans. Are heterosexual fathers attracted to their daughters? Do mothers fantasize about their sons? Typically, no, because it's immoral. Homosexuals have morals, too.

          As well, I'll reiterate: Marriage =\= Family. Marriage is love and recognition in the law. It denotes equal status in union in the country where the papers are signed. It has nothing to do with having children, wanting children or anything to do with children. There are a lot of heterosexual, children-less couples who do not have children and are considered a "family." Maybe it'd do you good to study some sociology / anthropology / psychology as to understand why this is and why it doesn't apply to heterosexual or homosexual marriages.

          And I agree. This should've been in Ceremonies.

          [Edit]

          And sure, but again, study some anthro / socio / psycho and you'll see that sometimes people's "fruits of love" come in other forms other than just reproduction.
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            #45    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (6:40 PM).
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          Quote:
          1- according to my traditions and religion.. YES! you need to be married to start a family

          2-loveless marrige is hell and no point of it
          1. Not everyone is your religion though. You can't expect everyone to follow a religion that they aren't a part of.

          2. That I can agree with, and it's unfortunate that there are unhappy and loveless marriages.
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            #46    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (6:40 PM). Edited April 17th, 2013 by Kanzler.
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          @Sydian

          I guess I take your multi-post respond to be your official blessing that it stays in D&D? XD

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Sydian View Post
          And I find it weird that people, straight or gay, would even want to have sex. Doesn't mean I should stop people from having sex or yell at them about it.
          It feels good though! That +oxytocin and more exercise than most people in Western nations probably do a day = adrenaline rush like no other.

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Yusshin
          I get the feeling you're treating homosexuals as lesser humans. Are heterosexual fathers attracted to their daughters? Do mothers fantasize about their sons? Typically, no, because it's immoral. Homosexuals have morals, too.
          That's what I've found really weird about homosexuality though. Because heterosexuals are attracted to an outgroup, so sexual/romantic scripts are appropriate for an outgroup. But homosexuals are attracted to the ingroup, and I'm assuming that their sexual/romantic scripts are equivalent to those of straight people because we all live in one society and heterosexuals are a large majority. If I assume wrong, what does the script look like?

          I think my girlfriend is increasingly right the more I read these discussions. I think marriages shouldn't be recognized by the state anymore, and the language should be toned down to "civil unions". Because if it's not about children, not about love, not about religion - but you still want the tax benefits and inheritance? Marriage, as a legal document representing love, is useless.

          Edit: but I want a love marriage - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TojTlYNNm9w
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            #47    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (6:48 PM). Edited April 17th, 2013 by Broken_Arrow.
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          [QUOTE]Link me to this way. I would LOVE to know. I'm sure it's very expensive and not readily available to the average woman though. And that's a bit mean to say about post-menopausal women. Maybe they didn't find the one till afterwards and never had the chance to have their own child in the environment they wanted.[QUOTE]

          Trust me,it happens a lot where i live and Egypt is a third world how about US first world!

          imo you can have a child under any enviroment ..we all know that at some age women don't give birth so i think she can decide that before she becomes menopausal!



          Yes. It's been proven. I don't know what "what grant one of them won't be attracted to him" is supposed to mean, though.

          i mean what if one of the married "Gay" couples felt attracted to the kid when he grow up?? he's a guy and not their biological son...can you be 100% sure about that...i hear about fathers rape their own kids now so can you be sure???




          """Because people love each other and want the legal biding. There are things that would prevent someone other than a spouse from doing something. And you also have to consider death. If one passes and they're not married, there may be things that don't legally allow the widow to receive anything, and what if the couple is elderly and the widow can't do much to support their self? ""



          ~~Eitherway they are from the same gender..they can't have children of their own! and if they did those children will be okay you think seeing their parents of all the other parents from the same gender??


          """"And I find it weird that people, straight or gay, would even want to have sex. Doesn't mean I should stop people from having sex or yell at them about it

          ~~who brought sex now?? what's your point!

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Sydian View Post
          1. Not everyone is your religion though. You can't expect everyone to follow a religion that they aren't a part of.

          2. That I can agree with, and it's unfortunate that there are unhappy and loveless marriages.
          either Islam,Christianity or Jew ..the three heaven religions are against that....i'm not expecting or waiting for people to folllow my religion it's up to them but i think most religions find it immoral to have sex before marriage and lots of families Christian families from US have the same thoughts!!

          listen,i'm not a god to Judge people..only God do..i'm talking about myself and my opinion..i'm not talking at anyone else's tongue!

          well at least we have a point in common..nice
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            #48    
          Old April 17th, 2013 (6:56 PM).
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            There are homosexual females, too. What about a pair of lesbians who raise a son? Your "attracted to their kid" argument is invalid there. Same with two men who raise a daughter.

            As for not knowing how to rais'em, I'm sure they had siblings, or friends, or family even that could teach'em along the way. There are books, family doctors, groups, etc. for that kind of thing, too. I really don't see the correlation between homosexual parents = bad parents.
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              #49    
            Old April 17th, 2013 (6:57 PM).
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            Quote:
            i mean what if one of the married "Gay" couples felt attracted to the kid when he grow up?? he's a guy and not their biological son...can you be 100% sure about that...i hear about fathers rape their own kids now so can you be sure???
            That's like saying a straight couple has a kids and the mother is attracted to the son or the father is attracted to the daughter. Just because the couple is homosexual, it doesn't mean they're attracted to EVERYONE of their sex. The child being adopted doesn't make a difference either. If a gay couple cares enough to go out of their way to adopt a child, which by the way is not a short or easy process, I doubt they'd do it just for that reason alone. I have more faith in humanity and adoptive parents than that.

            Quote:
            Eitherway they are from the same gender..they can't have children of their own! and if they did those children will be okay you think seeing their parents of all the other parents from the same gender??
            So? Damn, who wants to get pregnant and give birth and go through that? lol There are so many children already in the world that need to be adopted anyway. Straight couple can't do it alone. And gay couples don't add to the population. We don't need as many people in the world like we used to in the 1700's. And the child won't really know a difference if they grow up with two same sex parents. Believe me, if they're young and it's all they know, the strange ones to them will be people with parents of different sexes. I grew up in a single-parent household. It was so normal to me that I thought everyone did. I don't see this as being any different from that.

            Quote:
            who brought sex now?? what's your point!
            It was a comparison. My point was that I don't like sex. I can't make people not have sex though. You don't like gay marriage. You can't tell people not to have one.
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              #50    
            Old April 17th, 2013 (7:07 PM).
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            So? Damn, who wants to get pregnant and give birth and go through that? lol There are so many children already in the world that need to be adopted anyway. Straight couple can't do it alone. And gay couples don't add to the population. We don't need as many people in the world like we used to in the 1700's. And the child won't really know a difference if they grow up with two same sex parents. Believe me, if they're young and it's all they know, the strange ones to them will be people with parents of different sexes. I grew up in a single-parent household. It was so normal to me that I thought everyone did. I don't see this as being any different from that.
            Actually tell that to the Asians and Africans. The West needs more babies! or more immigrants.

            Quote:
            It was a comparison. My point was that I don't like sex. I can't make people not have sex though. You don't like gay marriage. You can't tell people not to have one.
            But sex positivity! I think that's how a lot of people who personally don't agree with same-sex marriage frame the question. If you make it a civil rights issue vs. a religious/moral issue, you'll find that a lot of the barriers you feel gone.
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