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Old October 27th, 2013 (6:16 PM).
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TheTorraRegion TheTorraRegion is offline
     
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    A discussion of much debate and great importance to me, I was curious to know what the people of PC thought about captive cetateans, mainly dolphins (bottlenose, orca, Commerson's, pilot whales, etc) and other toothed whales (belugas). I myself am oro-captivity.

    Anti-Captivity Facts:

    There have been a great deal of attacks on humans by captive dolphins, especially orcas.

    Dolphins have deep social bonds and females stay with other mothers for life most of the time. Each pod of orcas and possibly other dolphins Haven their own unique dialect, and when captured, are seperated from the animals they would naturally spend their entire lives with.

    Capture is cruel, and many dolphins have died during capture.

    The lifespans of captive orcas are cut from 70-90 to around 50.

    Many calves die due to inbreeding.

    Simple Good-To-Know Facts:

    SeaWorld and other marine parks haven't captured wild cetateans in years and either breed or rescue to obtain their animals.

    Having flopped-over dorsal fins OCCURS IN THE WILD

    Pro-Captivity Facts:

    Captivity is a good way for people to connect with cetateans, which helps keep them protected.

    Marine parks are educational and, once again, help arouse interest.

    Most marine parks, including SeaWorld, use positive reinforcement; if the animas don't behave the desired way, there is no punishment; if they behave the desired way, thy are rewarded.

    Behaviors, often called "tricks" provide exercise and enrichment.

    I will answer all questions honestly.
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    Old October 27th, 2013 (7:02 PM).
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    Rezilia Rezilia is offline
       
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      I'm pro-rescue. If your actions help animals by keeping them safe in the wild, like in Whale Wars, go for it. If there is an Oil Spill and capturing the animals, sending them to the wild or a preserve, etc, helps them, do it.

      Keeping them against their will for their safety is one thing - doing it for your own interest is another. This is why marine biologists keep stressing for engineering to turn further into the ocean category, so they can better study marine animals in the wild rather than having to capture them, or study dead ones.
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      Old October 28th, 2013 (6:41 AM).
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      TheTorraRegion TheTorraRegion is offline
         
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        While this is true, captivity still helps get the public interested in animals like cetateans as well as endangered animals. What most people want now is a lagoon where wild dolphins come and go, and that's where people can see them. However, not everyone has the money to fly to say Florida. I have a zoo with dolphins and hour away. Their bottlenose dolohins are a big part of why i love cetateans, and the discovery of their bottlenose dolphins got me into dolphins in genera, and, later, orcas, which i've studied intensly for seven years.
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        Old October 28th, 2013 (11:25 AM).
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        Esper Esper is offline
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        I wonder if it's really so important that people see dolphins at marine theme parks. I mean, yes, there is always value in exposing people to educational opportunities, but is that really going to happen at such a place?
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        Old October 28th, 2013 (2:26 PM).
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        As a business, they do what they do for profit eh? But I suppose it gets the world out, increases awareness and all that jazz. It's an interesting question. As the masters of the universe, I guess we humans can fool around every once in a while.

        Individuals dying is a natural consequence of inbreeding. But the only way to change that is to capture more, which might not be desirable or too costly.
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        Old October 28th, 2013 (4:47 PM).
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          I don't think dolphins should be captured. Their intelligence and experience of the world is more similar to a human's than a lower animal's. They even show signs of PTSD from being captured sometimes. Like mentioned, dolphins form complex bonds and socializing is important for them. It's just cruel to the dolphin to change their world like that by putting them in captivity for our own amusement. How arrogant are we.
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          Old October 28th, 2013 (5:01 PM).
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          Every animal, or perhaps "higher animals" (I don't know, birds and mammals?) would show signs of PTSD though, it's a response to trauma. Animal rights is a sticky thing, where do we draw the line, should we choose to draw a line? What's intelligent and what's not? Is intelligence a worthy criteria or is it just an extension of our human elitism?

          I don't think we can deny that taking animals captives is cruel. I'd like for someone to prove me wrong though, I do enjoy animal shows. Although I don't particularly care about cruelty to animals as much as I do other things, I do think we as humans do it simply because we can and it amuses us.
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          Old October 29th, 2013 (4:40 AM).
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            Yes, a good deal of education happens at zoos and marine parks.

            I think that while capture is cruel, and a handful of dolphins don't live the best quality of life, it's for tye greater good. Think of the millions of people who get to see them. Even if it's not solely educational, people get to see the animals and connect with them. Can you imagine a world without zoos?

            And what about dogs? We took wolves, kept them, bred them, keep them now as dogs....they don't have as mjch intelligence or social bonds as cetateans, but it's still a form of captivity. What about the technical captivity of horses, without whom there would have been limited transportation for a long time. Or the captive dolphins that search for sea mines?

            Yup. Grindewauld, baby. For the greater good.
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            Old October 29th, 2013 (7:21 AM).
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            There have been a great deal of attacks on humans by captive dolphins, especially orcas.

            Compared to attacks in the wild, yes. 'Great deal' is hardly accurate, though.

            The lifespans of captive orcas are cut from 70-90 to around 50.

            This number seems to be inflated a bit. At most, Whales live to ~60. A typical wild age is 40. From what I can see most captive whales live around 25-30 years which is shorter. Perhaps the healthiest, fittest individuals just don't get caught in the first place?

            Many calves die due to inbreeding.

            I've never heard of this before, but I wouldn't be surprised looking at illegal, abroad or isolated zoo/sea life centres.


            Overall, I think only rescued whales (with no chance of being reintroduced) should be kept in captivity. They should be offered more privacy, and certainly shouldn't be used as shows. Another vital flaw, compared to land mammals, is the sparsity of their enclosures - they are never decorated or provide a realistic environment, partially due to size limitations but still.
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            Old October 29th, 2013 (10:53 AM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by TheTorraRegion View Post
              And what about dogs? We took wolves, kept them, bred them, keep them now as dogs....they don't have as mjch intelligence or social bonds as cetateans, but it's still a form of captivity. What about the technical captivity of horses, without whom there would have been limited transportation for a long time.
              The history channel, y'all. It's been proven that the first instance of "captive" wolves was orchestrated by the wolves first. They didn't want to fight with the humans anymore, so they became their guardians, just out of their own desire. Yes, this WAS proven.

              The same went for horses. They chose their riders, not the other way around.

              Humans aren't inherently evil. We used to be good enough for animals to want to protect and/or help us, rather than tear us apart.
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              Old October 29th, 2013 (5:08 PM).
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                I was planning to post this thread when I saw a commercial of the documentary Black Fish on CNN, which made me cringed a little about the anti-captivity group. The purpose of zoos and marine parks are to not only keep endangered species from going extinct, but also educate guests to join helping the animals' natural habitat. The ones that do such cruel things to these animals are usually the illegal ones, which Magic Fox mentioned. What concerns me the most about captive cetaceans is the size of their tanks, which, for the orcas' case, can mess with their dorsal fins due to lack of space to exercise. If the exhibits were either built next to an ocean or built larger, they would live much healthier than they are today as they would in the wild.
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                Old October 30th, 2013 (3:06 AM).
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                I'm okay with some being in captivity if the facilities and tank are adequate. Keeping an orca in what equates to a bathtub is not a good fit. Similarly, elephants in too small an enclosure on land. Give them enough space or don't have them.

                I'm really not big on the performing though. I'd rather they just be presented to be admired like an aquarium. More educational. Not "dancing" to religious hymns praising Jesus (I kid you not, that was a show I saw at SeaWorld around Christmastime last year. The weirdest thing I have ever seen and was really disgusted)
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                Old October 30th, 2013 (3:49 AM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by TRIFORCE89 View Post
                I'm okay with some being in captivity if the facilities and tank are adequate. Keeping an orca in what equates to a bathtub is not a good fit. Similarly, elephants in too small an enclosure on land. Give them enough space or don't have them.

                I'm really not big on the performing though. I'd rather they just be presented to be admired like an aquarium. More educational. Not "dancing" to religious hymns praising Jesus (I kid you not, that was a show I saw at SeaWorld around Christmastime last year. The weirdest thing I have ever seen and was really disgusted)
                I agree. Captivity itself is not necessarily a bad thing IF the facilities are decent.
                However, we only hear the term "captivity" in bad topics nowadays, giving the word itself a bad taste.
                I wouldn't mind animals being held captive if the facilities allow it. Just like let's say Leopards. Here in the netherlands, we have a zoo which has some leopards. If the leopards dont feel like it, they can be out of the public's sight for a whole day because their habitat is so large that they can hide in a (human made) cave or swim in a pool large enough for 30 of them.

                Dolphins held captive doesn't have to be bad either, as long as you don't keep them in, like triforce said, a kingsize bathtub. I like the idea of a reservoir alot, it gives them a lot of freedom and still they can be viewed by people.
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                Old October 30th, 2013 (5:03 AM).
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                TheTorraRegion TheTorraRegion is offline
                   
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                  I put in the OP wwhat they said in Blackfish, because anti-caps exaderate.

                  The tanks at SW are quite large, and they have at least one play sesion with the trainers every day, so they're not bored. And, dorsal fin floppage happens IN. THE. WILD. Not as often, but stil.

                  As far as perfoming, this is to keep them exersised as well as enriched. Things you see in shows lime porpoises, breaches, etc, are natural behaviors they have been taught to do on command. In the BTS areas, i have witnessed dolphins doing behaviors they do in shows when there weren't any trainers around. Plus, as i sakd, it's a good form of enrichment for captive animals.
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                  Old October 30th, 2013 (8:04 AM). Edited October 30th, 2013 by Livewire.
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                  On one hand, there's the idea that if we don't have some in captivity, then they risk extinction in the wild. If worse comes to worse, I'd rather at least keep the species alive in some way, with proper care and good facilities. But the way in which the animals are treated in captivity is disgusting. This has been known for some time, but things like The Cove and Blackfish really put it out there for everyone to see.

                  If you really want to see or appreciate a dolphin or a whale, in a proper context and setting, go to the ocean. Yes, it's easier to see one in captivity and yes, it can facilitate interest and conversation efforts for the creatures, but if you really want to appreciate the intrinsic beauty, see them in the wild if at all possible.
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                  Old October 30th, 2013 (8:21 AM).
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                  TheTorraRegion TheTorraRegion is offline
                     
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                    Blackfish left out everything good in captivity, and told some lies.

                    To answer an earlier remark, there is plenty of genetic veriety available without more capture do to artificial insemination.

                    Plus, not everyone has the money to go on a whale-watching trip to possibly (bot not definantly) find dolphins do some porps and breath a bit. The good thing about whale watching is that, like captivity, it geys people interested. But not everyone can fly to a coastal state and pay to go whale-watching. The next best option is going to a zoo where there are dolphins. Sure, it's not free, but it's cheaper than going on vacation.
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                    Old November 28th, 2013 (4:32 PM).
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                    Overall, I would say I’m more pro-captivity. While I don’t believe that keeping animals from the natural habitat their entire life is necessarily a good thing, I think that if we see an animal that is hurt or cruel then it is good to raise them in captivity and heal them. While it cuts down their wildlife, most cetaceous animals seem to get killed in the wild due to predators. If they are bred and live in captivity, then this won’t happen. Also, the cetaceans can raise a family in peace (hopefully). While I find that using these animals for shows is degrading (I am against that, I think that these creatures are excellent for educational purposes. We have learned tremendous amounts of information from these creatures such as dolphins use voice mimicry to communicate. From these animals they have also learned how other animals communicate and they have bridged the way for research on other animals.
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