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A Chance to Open Up Russia?

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  #26    
Old February 5th, 2014 (3:52 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
And last I checked, homosexuality is not illegal in any state, although there is still discrimination and marriage bans, unlike in Russia.
That would be true if not for the fact that homosexuality is actually not illegal in Russia, and hasn't been since 1993.
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  #27    
Old February 5th, 2014 (4:16 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    The federal government recognizes same-sex marriages. The hypocrisy is from the states themselves, and not the government, as the government is trying to force the acceptance on each state, one by one. Look at Utah and Oklahoma. Their bans were struck down just last month, and the states are fighting against a federal ruling, despite the fact that given the way our government works, they have no grounds to do so. The State must follow Federal rulings and laws, whether they like it or not.

    Thus, there is no hypocrisy from the government, just from those kicking and screaming against the inevitable change that the States are doing. And last I checked, homosexuality is not illegal in any state, although there is still discrimination and marriage bans, unlike in Russia.
    Homosexuality is indeed illegal in several states, as those laws are still on the books. Texas being a prime example. And as the article even states, in Texas and Alabama it's mandated that children be taught that “homosexual conduct is a criminal offense.” The problem is those laws, while still on the books, are unenforceable thanks to the 2003 Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas which decided that those laws are unconstitutional. So your assertion that homosexuality is not illegal in the U.S. is not entirely correct.
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      #28    
    Old February 5th, 2014 (4:17 PM).
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
    The federal government recognizes same-sex marriages. The hypocrisy is from the states themselves, and not the government, as the government is trying to force the acceptance on each state, one by one. Look at Utah and Oklahoma. Their bans were struck down just last month, and the states are fighting against a federal ruling, despite the fact that given the way our government works, they have no grounds to do so. The State must follow Federal rulings and laws, whether they like it or not.

    Thus, there is no hypocrisy from the government, just from those kicking and screaming against the inevitable change that the States are doing. And last I checked, homosexuality is not illegal in any state, although there is still discrimination and marriage bans, unlike in Russia.
    This is basically right on the money. The federal government doesn't really have much power over the states' laws. In most of those places those laws aren't even enforced, because if they are enforced the state would probably be taken to task by the Supreme Court and have them overturned. In other words, those laws are as good as unenforceable.

    The United States is kinda weird in that regard...
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      #29    
    Old February 5th, 2014 (4:27 PM).
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      Originally Posted by zomgitscathy View Post
      This is basically right on the money. The federal government doesn't really have much power over the states' laws. In most of those places those laws aren't even enforced, because if they are enforced the state would probably be taken to task by the Supreme Court and have them overturned. In other words, those laws are as good as unenforceable.

      The United States is kinda weird in that regard...
      Never mind the Supreme Court, if ever a state were to attempt to make homosexuality illegal and enforce those laws, they would very quickly be struck down by the district courts (likely in summary judgement) and neither the appeals courts or the supreme court would even accept an appeal by those states. In 2013, in Louisiana, a sheriff there was made to apologize for arresting 12 gay men on sodomy charges when that state's anti-sodomy laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable (a link to they story here: http://www.dallasvoice.com/men-arrested-baton-rouge-unconstitutional-sodomy-law-10153800.html).
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        #30    
      Old February 5th, 2014 (4:27 PM).
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      I do agree that with all the states that still do not recognize same-sex marriage (or same sex-activity, yet another reason why I think Texas is a cesspit of hypocrisy and violations of individual rights) that the United States definitely doesn't have any place officially to criticize Russia's position.

      But even so, even though we're being hypocrites about it, that doesn't mean that saying "banning gay marriage is wrong" isn't true.

      Unfortunately, lots of things go state by state in the US, including LGBT rights. Personally, I'm hopeful that a domino effect will occur and states will realize being against homosexuality and same-sex marriage is a lost cause (and if it isn't a lost cause, it should be).

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        #31    
      Old February 5th, 2014 (5:04 PM).
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        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Alessi_sys View Post
        Homosexuality is indeed illegal in several states, as those laws are still on the books. Texas being a prime example. And as the article even states, in Texas and Alabama it's mandated that children be taught that “homosexual conduct is a criminal offense.” The problem is those laws, while still on the books, are unenforceable thanks to the 2003 Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v. Texas which decided that those laws are unconstitutional. So your assertion that homosexuality is not illegal in the U.S. is not entirely correct.
        You have much to learn. There is a difference between being taught that it is illegal, and it actually BEING illegal. For example, say I go up to someone and teach them that coke tastes just like pepsi. While that person might believe that it is true, that belief does not make it true. Truth is, coke and pepsi taste nothing alike, yet I had told them it had anyway. So just because its mandated that it be taught that homosexuality is illegal does not directly infer that it is in fact illegal, as no such law exists in the United States that says relationships between same-sex couples is illegal, and can be arrested and tried for the crime of homosexuality.

        So please, learn to differentiate between what is illegal, and what people tell you is illegal.
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          #32    
        Old February 5th, 2014 (5:24 PM).
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        You two are about to get into a debate over semantics, so beware. However, Jay made the point that:

        Quote:
        your assertion that homosexuality is not illegal in the U.S. is not entirely correct.
        ... and I think he has both defined and supported his point well. It was about the fact that homosexuality is still formally illegal in some jurisdictions, even though those laws are unenforceable. I don't think you could make the argument that homosexuality is legal in the United States without qualifying that statement given that:

        Quote:
        as no such law exists in the United States that says relationships between same-sex couples is illegal, and can be arrested and tried for the crime of homosexuality.
        ...there do exist laws (as Jay had referred to) that prohibit sodomy. Some slap you with a fine, others slap you with a prison sentence. They don't happen to be enforced, but you cannot say that "no such law exists".

        source:http://www.bilerico.com/2011/08/18_states_still_have_sodomy_laws_on_the_books.php
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          #33    
        Old February 5th, 2014 (5:32 PM).
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          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
          You have much to learn. There is a difference between being taught that it is illegal, and it actually BEING illegal. For example, say I go up to someone and teach them that coke tastes just like pepsi. While that person might believe that it is true, that belief does not make it true. Truth is, coke and pepsi taste nothing alike, yet I had told them it had anyway. So just because its mandated that it be taught that homosexuality is illegal does not directly infer that it is in fact illegal, as no such law exists in the United States that says relationships between same-sex couples is illegal, and can be arrested and tried for the crime of homosexuality.

          So please, learn to differentiate between what is illegal, and what people tell you is illegal.
          Condescending much? You skipped right over the part where I remind you that Texas law, as well as law in several other states, says that homosexual acts are illegal. These laws are still on the books. Look it up if you don't believe me. Why do think I later provided a link for a 2013 case in Louisiana where 12 gay men were charged under that state's anti-sodomy laws? To demonstrate to you that those laws still exists and to show that people are still being prosecuted for violating those laws. They cannot be legally enforced, however, because of the Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v Texas. Which is why the charges against those 12 men were dropped and why the Sheriff was forced to apologize (as pathetic an apology as there ever was). I mentioned the educational mandate only because it reinforces the Texas's already existing anti-sodomy statutes.
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            #34    
          Old February 5th, 2014 (5:57 PM).
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            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Alessi_sys View Post
            Condescending much? You skipped right over the part where I remind you that Texas law, as well as law in several other states, says that homosexual acts are illegal. These laws are still on the books. Look it up if you don't believe me. Why do think I later provided a link for a 2013 case in Louisiana where 12 gay men were charged under that state's anti-sodomy laws? To demonstrate to you that those laws still exists and to show that people are still being prosecuted for violating those laws. They cannot be legally enforced, however, because of the Supreme Court ruling in Lawrence v Texas. Which is why the charges against those 12 men were dropped and why the Sheriff was forced to apologize (as pathetic an apology as there ever was). I mentioned the educational mandate only because it reinforces the Texas's already existing anti-sodomy statutes.
            ...seriously going with sodomy laws? Allow me to educate you a little bit, okay? Not all homosexuals have anal-sex. Thus, just because anal sex is illegal in some states does not equate the law to making homosexuality illegal. In fact, for the longest time, I didn't want to have anal sex, and preferred other methods. Just because there are two guys in the relationship does not mean that anything enters the backdoor.

            And, as I recall, those anti-sodomy laws also apply to heterosexual couples, thus not discriminating against same-sex couples. There is no law in the united states that says, "Any person caught committing an act of homosexuality shall be punished by law." Thus, homosexuality is NOT illegal in the USA, and your entire argument falls short.

            And yes, I am being condescending towards you, because you tried to make it sound like you knew for a fact that being homosexual was illegal, despite no such law existing. Learn to do some research before making asinine assumptions like the ones you already have.
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              #35    
            Old February 5th, 2014 (6:26 PM).
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              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
              ...seriously going with sodomy laws? Allow me to educate you a little bit, okay? Not all homosexuals have anal-sex.
              You do realize you're talking to a gay man here, right? LOL. I think I have a fair idea of what gay men do when they have sex.

              Allow me to educate you on sodomy: it is not restricted to anal sex only.

              Quote:
              sod•om•y (ˈsɒd ə mi)
              n.
              1. anal or oral copulation with a member of the same sex.
              2. enforced anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
              3. bestiality (def. 4).
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
              Thus, just because anal sex is illegal in some states does not equate the law to making homosexuality illegal.
              As I indicated, sodomy is not restricted to anal sex only. In fact, some would even define it as any act that does not restrict itself to two people of the opposite sex in the missionary position.

              Also, because politically homosexuality has been so closely associated with sexual acts, legislators issued sanctions against actions taken by homosexuals. Anti-sodomy laws were the only way, legally at the time, governments could outlaw homosexuality.

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
              And, as I recall, those anti-sodomy laws also apply to heterosexual couples, thus not discriminating against same-sex couples.
              That point was brought up and rejected during the Lawrence v. Texas case.

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
              There is no law in the united states that says, "Any person caught committing an act of homosexuality shall be punished by law." Thus, homosexuality is NOT illegal in the USA, and your entire argument falls short.
              I'm not the only one to show you that you're wrong on this. Those laws do exist! They just cannot be legally enforced because of the Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas. Seriously. Look it up. Look up Texas statute, or Louisiana, or any of the 16 other states where anti-sodomy statutes STILL exists and where some STILL attempt to enforce those laws.

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
              And yes, I am being condescending towards you, because you tried to make it sound like you knew for a fact that being homosexual was illegal, despite no such law existing. Learn to do some research before making asinine assumptions like the ones you already have.
              Since it's proven that you are wrong on this, your condescension is both unwarranted and rude. I will thank you to be more respectful in the future.
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                #36    
              Old February 5th, 2014 (6:46 PM).
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                Quote:
                Originally Posted by Alessi_sys View Post
                You do realize you're talking to a gay man here, right? LOL. I think I have a fair idea of what gay men do when they have sex.

                Allow me to educate you on sodomy: it is not restricted to anal sex only.





                As I indicated, sodomy is not restricted to anal sex only. In fact, some would even define it as any act that does not restrict itself to two people of the opposite sex in the missionary position.

                Also, because politically homosexuality has been so closely associated with sexual acts, legislators issued sanctions against actions taken by homosexuals. Anti-sodomy laws were the only way, legally at the time, governments could outlaw homosexuality.



                That point was brought up and rejected during the Lawrence v. Texas case.



                I'm not the only one to show you that you're wrong on this. Those laws do exist! They just cannot be legally enforced because of the Supreme Court decision in Lawrence v. Texas. Seriously. Look it up. Look up Texas statute, or Louisiana, or any of the 16 other states where anti-sodomy statutes STILL exists and where some STILL attempt to enforce those laws.



                Since it's proven that you are wrong on this, your condescension is both unwarranted and rude. I will thank you to be more respectful in the future.
                If you have a fair idea, then you know that it does not always involve penetration of either mouth or anus. Is mutual masturbation covered under the anti-sodomy laws? Probably not.

                And again, just because there are laws outlawing certain acts does not mean that it outlaws an entire sexuality. Plus, the law was invalidated by the Supreme Court, as it was in 13 other states as well. Just because it still is written on paper does not mean it is considered a law anymore. In fact, anyone arrested for sodomy could file a lawsuit because of it.

                And since they were using the law to discriminate against a group of people, it violated the Constitution, and could not legally be called a law, since the Constitution does not allow discriminatory laws. Hence why there are some many states legalizing same-sex marriage.
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                  #37    
                Old February 5th, 2014 (6:52 PM).
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                It's naive to separate homo-/sexuality/ from homosexuality. Furthermore, there are sodomy laws that explicit refers to members of the same sex - although, by your logic they wouldn't be targeting the homosexual population as they also mention sex with animals in the same breath. I mean, it sounds like you won't be convinced unless somebody shows you the letter of the law with the term "homosexuality" emblazoned on it. Is "members of the same sex" not enough?

                Quote:
                Just because it still is written on paper does not mean it is considered a law anymore.
                Says who?

                Quote:
                And since they were using the law to discriminate against a group of people, it violated the Constitution, and could not legally be called a law, since the Constitution does not allow discriminatory laws.
                Well, some of those sodomy laws are still on the books. Am I at fault for referring to them as "laws" illegally?

                source: http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_21/Article_35/21-3505.html
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                  #38    
                Old February 5th, 2014 (7:44 PM).
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                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by BlahISuck View Post
                  It's naive to separate homo-/sexuality/ from homosexuality. Furthermore, there are sodomy laws that explicit refers to members of the same sex - although, by your logic they wouldn't be targeting the homosexual population as they also mention sex with animals in the same breath. I mean, it sounds like you won't be convinced unless somebody shows you the letter of the law with the term "homosexuality" emblazoned on it. Is "members of the same sex" not enough?



                  Says who?



                  Well, some of those sodomy laws are still on the books. Am I at fault for referring to them as "laws" illegally?

                  source: http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_21/Article_35/21-3505.html
                  Way to take what I said out of context. Reread the part you asked "Says who?" I clearly state that the law was invalidated, thus it can no longer be considered a law. It was invalidated in 13 other states as well.

                  So, I still have yet to see any law stating that being gay was a crime. Some of the sex, maybe, but not the sexuality in itself, which is essentially what Russia did with their law, since the term "propaganda" is so broad that they could use it for anything.
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                    #39    
                  Old February 5th, 2014 (9:20 PM).
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                  So a law ceases to remain a law once it is invalidated? Then my sources must be wrong for referring to these "laws" on the books. You said I couldn't legally call them laws, now you're saying I can't consider them laws, and yet they are still referred to as laws in journalism. To clear up any misunderstanding I went to law.com and found a definition of "law" in the context we're using here:

                  Quote:
                  2) n. a statute, ordinance or regulation enacted by the legislative branch of a government and signed into law, or in some nations created by decree without any democratic process. This is distinguished from "natural law," which is not based on statute, but on alleged common understanding of what is right and proper (often based on moral and religious precepts as well as common understanding of fairness and justice).

                  Those laws-but-not-actually-laws we have been mentioning above are statutes: it took a legislature to sign them in. Is constitutionality part of the definition of what a law is? No, which is why we can call unconstitutional laws "unconstitutional laws". You might not consider them a law, but I do - to the extent that a piece of writing is enacted by a legislature and signed, that piece of writing is law. Let's look at these laws-but-not-actually-laws. Are they statutes? Yes. Were they de-enacted by a legislature, whatever that means? No. Are they un-signed? No. So they're laws. I'll stop calling it a law when it ceases to exist though, then there'd be no statute for me to refer to.

                  Let's take your point about the non-existence of laws criminalizing homosexuality in the US. How about we take a look at Uganda's recent anti-homosexuality bill:

                  It defines the offence of homosexuality - in section 2 - as:

                  Quote:
                  a) homosexual sex (which I will not go into detail for the benefit of some of our readers)

                  b) more homosexual sex

                  c) touching another person with the intent of committing homosexuality.

                  Section 3 refers to "aggravated homosexuality" which is a more "serious" version of the acts listed above, section 4 refers to "attempt to commit homosexuality" which is again based on the definition outlined in section 2, section 5 and 6 recognize compensation and confidentiality of victims of these "homosexual acts", section 7 refers to advising others to commit homosexuality, section 8 refers to conspiracy to commit homosexuality, I'm going to skip a few and go to section 13 which refers to what to do in case of somebody promoting homosexuality. The important point here is that all subsequent sections refer to "homosexuality" as it is outlined in section 2.

                  So even in Uganda homosexuality is legal, as only homosexual acts are prohibited but not the sexuality. But it's true. Even in Ugandan law homosexuality is defined as "same gender or same sex sexual acts". As long as you stay away from associating yourself with "homosexual acts" your sexuality is not being banned under that law.

                  I don't think I need to say more about the futility of semantic arguments.

                  ---

                  Fortunately in Russia you can have sexual relations with your partner if you are a man and not be sent to jail for it. Unfortunately, I can be a straight man but fly a rainbow flag and be sent to jail because "homosexuality is criminalized". I don't see how you can equivocate banning publicly-directed expressions of support for homosexuality as banning homosexuality. What would you say of self-hating homosexuals who would never speak publicly about their own sexuality? What would you say of closeted folks? I don't see how their sexuality is banned.

                  This is what the law actually says (translated in English, I can't speak Russian but I'm going with what the author says):

                  Quote:
                  Propaganda is the act of distributing information among minors that 1) is aimed at the creating nontraditional sexual attitudes, 2) makes nontraditional sexual relations attractive, 3) equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations, or 4) creates an interest in nontraditional sexual relations.

                  Not exactly used for anything, however, we generally assume the worst whenever we speak of Russia.

                  source for uganda bill: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7pFotabJnTmYzFiMWJmY2UtYWYxMi00MDY2LWI4NWYtYTVlOWU1OTEzMzk0/edit?hl=en&pli=1
                  source for contents of russia law: http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english
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                    #40    
                  Old February 5th, 2014 (9:27 PM).
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                  While I don't particularly agree with what they're doing, they're not obstructing human rights. They're just trying to avoid bad things to be made normal. Again, I don't agree that homosexuality is wrong (or anything, for that matter, but that's a religosophical debate that I don't want to dip my toes in) but I see where one would come from if they saw it as wrong.

                  It's like saying "don't make lying seem awesome" should be a law. Not exactly evil and violating-human-rights horrible, but at the same time not a very appropriate secular law. Then again, what are we to say about that? We have laws that effectively prohibit recovery from poverty, healthcare is wacky…not to say we should ignore all these issues, but rather work on them all and not judge one to be worse than the other.
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                    #41    
                  Old February 6th, 2014 (2:56 AM).
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                    Quote:
                    Originally Posted by Beloved View Post
                    Way to take what I said out of context. Reread the part you asked "Says who?" I clearly state that the law was invalidated, thus it can no longer be considered a law. It was invalidated in 13 other states as well.

                    So, I still have yet to see any law stating that being gay was a crime. Some of the sex, maybe, but not the sexuality in itself, which is essentially what Russia did with their law, since the term "propaganda" is so broad that they could use it for anything.
                    Your understanding of law is seriously flawed. Any first year law student could pick apart everything you've said and show you where you are wrong. But somehow I don't believe that would make a difference. For you seem to be unwilling to accept that just maybe others might have an insight into these things which you don't.

                    I've been on this planet for over 40 years. I've been a gay rights advocate for 11 of those years. As such I've heavily invested myself in learning everything I can to help me help the LGBT community further its goal of equality under the law. Even in Canada, where I live, there are still issues that need to be addressed, and this is a country which already has full marriage equality.
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                      #42    
                    Old February 6th, 2014 (10:36 PM).
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                      Even if human rights are as bad in Russia as the United States makes them out to be, that still makes the United States hypocritical because we emphasize it so much more in countries like Russia and Middle-Eastern countries that America as a society has designated as "bad" than we do in countries like China that we have an economic interest in, and are therefore "good." We try and appear the good guys, stamping out injustice and cruelty, but we're incredibly biased in our judgement, and a biased justice is no justice at all.
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                        #43    
                      Old February 9th, 2014 (7:22 AM). Edited February 9th, 2014 by zakisrage.
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                        Russia isn't going to adopt Western morals right away. It's still backwards in some respect. For example, prejudice against the country's non-Russian ethnic groups is very common, and Russia's history is sullied with the persecution of Jews and Muslims. Also, there's lots of orphans in Russia and drug problems are pretty bad. Plus the government is repressive. Russia clearly has a long way to go.

                        One thing that's caught my attention about the Sochi Olympics that no one has mentioned is the protests by the Circassians. The Circassians are the original inhabitants of the area, and they faced a genocide many years ago. A lot of them are protesting the games because Russia does not recognise the Circassian Genocide, the 150th anniversary of the genocide is during the games, and they're holding a skiing/snowboarding event on a hill where their people were massacred. I personally think that they should still have the games, but at least let the Circassians include their traditions like the native peoples in Canada got to during the previous Winter Olympics. It only shows Russia's apathy towards its minorities.
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                          #44    
                        Old February 9th, 2014 (10:37 AM).
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                        I really don't think we can exclude Russia, let alone most if any countries, from the civilized world.
                        Well why can't we exactly? By definition if they're mistreating people on the basis of their sexual orientation, then isn't it by definition not part of the civilized world? I mean, that's a pretty backward practice.
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