Marriage. Page 3

Started by Somniac January 31st, 2014 7:49 PM
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Well, to be fair, God creates homosexuals, heterosexuals, psychopaths, sociopaths, and the likes of people such as Hilter, Stalin, and Miley Cyrus.
Just to clarify: people are not born psychopathic or sociopathic. Both are psychological ailments not tied to a person's innate traits. So, no, God does not make them this way. Also, the cited figures can also be dismissed as an analogy, for they were not born to make the choices they did. So the argument being presented here is a false one. There is something inherently dangerous when we compare a person's sexual orientation to psychological conditions or evil or dangerous choices people make. And its these kinds of comparisons (whether in jest or genuine) that cause real harm to gays and lesbians and their families.

Ok, here is a little generalization: in the Big Bang theory, earth was a large rock (hardened molten something) and it rained for many years and chemicals appeared and made the basic forms of life. From there, over billions of years we came. So, essentially, we came from a rock. Let's keep on topic.
Your understanding of the big bang is flawed, I'm afraid.
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Just to clarify: people are not born psychopathic or sociopathic. Both are psychological ailments not tied to a person's innate traits. So, no, God does not make them this way. Also, the cited figures can also be dismissed as an analogy, for they were not born to make the choices they did. So the argument being presented here is a false one. There is something inherently dangerous when we compare a person's sexual orientation to psychological conditions or evil or dangerous choices people make. And its these kinds of comparisons (whether in jest or genuine) that cause real harm to gays and lesbians and their families.



Your understanding of the big bang is flawed, I'm afraid.
Lets not get off track. The thread is about marriage.
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Entermaid

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Just to clarify: people are not born psychopathic or sociopathic. Both are psychological ailments not tied to a person's innate traits. So, no, God does not make them this way. Also, the cited figures can also be dismissed as an analogy, for they were not born to make the choices they did. So the argument being presented here is a false one. There is something inherently dangerous when we compare a person's sexual orientation to psychological conditions or evil or dangerous choices people make. And its these kinds of comparisons (whether in jest or genuine) that cause real harm to gays and lesbians and their families.
Sexuality, murder, and rape are naturally occurring in nature and humankind since their existences. Arguing something is good or bad since it is natural is irrelevant. That doesn't mean I am saying any kind of sexuality is moral or immoral, it's just irreverent to use natural as an argument.

Further, I included heterosexuality in that list of analogy, alongside homosexuality in order to preempt any unfounded misinterpretation that I am saying anything negative against one group over the other. "The inherent danger to gays and lesbian families" is just an unfounded mud-sling, and again, is irrelevant to the issue. Race, sexuality, disease, appearance, intelligence, among other things are inherited through genetics. Though, there are environmental factors by which some of these qualities interact.

Every single licensed psychologist will agree that there are predispositions to psychopathy and sociopathy. There are more studies than I can list that provide a genetic causal link to these conditions. The strongest of which are among identical twins with different parents and upbringings. These predispositions interact with environmental factors (which are naturally occurring [could be argued a derivation of God's work]), largely out of a person's control, such as death or failed relationship. Thus, these conditions are largely due to genetic predispositions, though stressors, can also be attributed to an elevation of these conditions (again, stressors, are a product of nature, or God if you are spiritual/religious). No one has the free will to circumvent these conditions, both "good" or "bad", for lack of better terms.

Additionally, we could take anything like love, peace, death, war, and attribute it to God. It doesn't mean that these are equal items. That was the whole point of putting sexuality on the same list as less desirable characteristics in order to provide a contrast in the reasoning you are employing,

Anyway, the point being, any public policy changes to marriage, even if I agree with the same ultimate result as you (to legalize gay marriage), should employ more objective reasoning rather than depending upon a fallacy such as the naturalistic fallacy. This opens up weak arguments for the opponents to attack, and this vulnerability to weak illogical arguments, it could be argued, is more harmful to LGBT families than anything.

This is a common issue among gay rights activists and anti gay rights activists. They mud-sling and use common sayings and phrases, such as the naturalistic fallacy, in order to bolster their positions. These points are irrelevant, and should not continue to be recycled if any change in both law and attitudes is to result.
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Sopheria

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Imo sexuality of any kind is amoral, meaning it's neither moral or immoral. I'm not even sure how sexuality is even remotely related to morality. Imo for something to be immoral, it has to result in someone getting harmed (ie it has to have a victim, so to speak). I don't see how there's a victim involved in homosrxuality.

That said, I don't think it's even relevant to the question of the purpose of marriage, or whetheror not marriage should be restricted to a man and a woman. If a couple--gay or straight--is raising a child, the only "moral" thing to do is get married. And since there's plenty of children who want parents, and plenty of gay couples who want children, I think it can be said that same sex marriage is an overall positive thing in society.
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Imo sexuality of any kind is amoral, meaning it's neither moral or immoral. I'm not even sure how sexuality is even remotely related to morality. Imo for something to be immoral, it has to result in someone getting harmed (ie it has to have a victim, so to speak). I don't see how there's a victim involved in homosrxuality.

That said, I don't think it's even relevant to the question of the purpose of marriage, or whetheror not marriage should be restricted to a man and a woman. If a couple--gay or straight--is raising a child, the only "moral" thing to do is get married. And since there's plenty of children who want parents, and plenty of gay couples who want children, I think it can be said that same sex marriage is an overall positive thing in society.
Rape is immoral. Premarital sex is immoral. Sex with someone other than your husband/wife is immoral. People have different moral standards. I have different morals and values than other people. Morals are are more subjective. And with same sex couples have a more positive effect on society. On my point of view it isn't.
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Entermaid

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Rape is immoral. Premarital sex is immoral. Sex with someone other than your husband/wife is immoral. People have different moral standards. I have different morals and values than other people. Morals are are more subjective. And with same sex couples have a more positive effect on society. On my point of view it isn't.
Show your work please.

How does same sex coupling have a negative impact? Reply to some of my responses a few posts back on the other relevant issues beyond same-sex relations that are affected by same-sex marriage laws.

Right now we have, "it's immoral since it is immoral." That doesn't cut it for policy-making or being an informed citizen that votes to affect policy-making.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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Ok, here is a little generalization: in the Big Bang theory, earth was a large rock (hardened molten something) and it rained for many years and chemicals appeared and made the basic forms of life. From there, over billions of years we came. So, essentially, we came from a rock. Let's keep on topic.
Oh ♥♥♥♥, not this crap again. For someone who told us to not get off topic you sure are good at getting off topic. In the meantime I have gathered resources for you to read before you spout any more nonsense about something you clearly have no understanding of.

Fenneking is right, you know, you have to have a reason to why it's immoral. Just because someone told you so isn't a good enough reason. For example, rape is immoral because it is an assault and is nonconsentual, and hurts people physically. It involves another person having their rights and body infringed upon, something that two gay guys marrying and having sexual interactions does not do to anyone else involved.

Sopheria

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Rape is immoral. Premarital sex is immoral. Sex with someone other than your husband/wife is immoral. People have different moral standards. I have different morals and values than other people. Morals are are more subjective. And with same sex couples have a more positive effect on society. On my point of view it isn't.
I agree about rape, because it has a victim--the non-consenting party of the sexual intercourse. Cheatinf is immoral because it also has a victim: the person whose trust was betrayed (ie the person who was cheated on). But who is the victim in consensual sex outside of marriage?

And abour same sex marriage being good for society, think of it this way: when a child is being raised by same sex parents, don't you think it's better for the child that the parents enter a legal contract swearing to remain together, share responsibilities and property, and share the duties of raising the child?
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[QUOTE=zomgitscathy;8116588]I agree about rape, because it has a victim--the non-consenting party of the sexual intercourse. Cheatinf is immoral because it also has a victim: the person whose trust was betrayed (ie the person who was cheated on). But who is the victim in consensual sex outside of marriage?

That is also cheating. The wife and husband (hopefully) reserved their sex life for each other. For someone to have sex with another person is just wrong. It is a sin.

And abour same sex marriage being good for society, think of it this way: when a child is being raised by same sex parents, don't you think it's better for the child that the parents enter a legal contract swearing to remain together, share responsibilities and property, and share the duties of raising the child?[
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who ever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

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Sopheria

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That is also cheating. The wife and husband (hopefully) reserved their sex life for each other. For someone to have sex with another person is just wrong. It is a sin.
I think you misunderstood. I was agreeing that adultery is immoral. What I was disagreeing with is that sex before marriage is immoral. If neither party involved in the act is married, who's the victim? Who's being cheated on? Again, something immoral has to have a victim.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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How is having sex with someone when you're not married cheating? You don't have anyone to cheat against lol
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How is having sex with someone when you're not married cheating? You don't have anyone to cheat against lol
I misread the question. What I was trying to get to was sexual immorality is a sin.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who ever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

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Corvus of the Black Night

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I misread the question. What I was trying to get to was sexual immorality is a sin.
What defines immorality, then? Immorality varies from culture to culture. The etoro for example are known for their, uh, very different morality regarding sexual practices than western society is.
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A liberalist defines immoral differently than I would. I find homosexuality a sin, they may not.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who ever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

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Corvus of the Black Night

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A liberalist defines immoral differently than I would. I find homosexuality a sin, they may not.
Well, that's fine, although most people on this forum would agree that your opinions on homosexuality are immoral themselves. Immorality is completely induced by one's perspective and prejudices which makes it lacking in terms of imposing law on many, unless that moral is agreed upon by a lot of people.

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A liberalist defines immoral differently than I would. I find homosexuality a sin, they may not.
But again, homosexuality being moral or immoral is not the focal issue regarding same-sex marriage. Regardless of whether homosexuality is right or wrong, I tend to agree with zomgitscathy that all sexuality is amoral, same sex marriage affects political and social substructures in the United States. Further, this policy doesn't affect the number of homosexuals having relations, rather it affects the nature of homosexual relations, again, this shift would be considered by social convention and biblical doctrine to be more moralistic.

This tangent about morality is irrelevant to policy making, it offers no substantive reasoning as to issues of polarity, social cohesion (of conventions, life expectations/goals, and mores), physical social segregation (gay sanctioned areas), adoption vs. foster care, among other issues. All issues which present "moral" or social dilemmas. Anything to add on these issues?

Again, feel free to respond to my post a few posts back in which I explain each of these in more depth. Please refrain from, "I believe because I believe" statements, as it ignores the impact these policies or lack of policies have on both homosexual and heterosexual individuals. If laws were made ignoring the indirect impacts on lives of millions, it would certainly be suspect to "moralistic" or ethical investigation.

Thanks. Look forward to your response.

(Oh I'd also add that I am more of a classical conservative in the Burkean sense [if I were forced to choose a political ideology], though I am always evolving my stances and open to new information and reasoning. So you are getting more than just liberal perspectives in approbation of same-sex marriage policies.)
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Again, homosexuals will continue to homosexuals, meaning have sex with homosexuals. Studies show homosexuality, in thought, cannot be converted to heterosexuality. A slew of psychology studies demonstrate that gay parents do not yield more gay children. So this argument that you don't want more homosexuals in the world doesn't make sense. How would denying marriage and adoption abilities increase homosexuality? The rest of your poorly constructed argument rests upon this point. You haven't demonstrated how this policy change in marriage and adoption would increase the homosexual population.

Therefore, with the homosexual population as it stands, why not make choices that improve the millions of other point of morality, again, as dictated by conventional and long-withstanding institutions? Improving the lives of homosexuals and heterosexuals alike.

Your proposition, as I explained earlier, harms all groups, homosexual or not, in a variety of systemic ways. That is greater sin if we are to attempt to quantify:

Same number of homosexuals having sex (list of negative consequences I listed in the other post) < Same number of homosexuals having sex, developing long term relationships, adopting children (abused/beaten/neglected in the Foster Care System), improve relations between religious/nonreligious groups, decrease polarization of politics, ect.

One stance promotes immorality by focusing on one unchangeable factor.

Oh, and a fun fact sheet of Foster Care outcomes, well just a few of them:

Well, have fun arguing:
Foster Care > Homosexual Adoptive Parents (high standards of medical, criminal, financial screening)


Also, we don't have free will for our race, religion, thought processes, anything. We have inherit qualities that interact with an environment. In fact, most people don't choose to not be a christian. We inherit social convention, laws, and customs of our society and operate by those conventions, including religious beliefs. How, for instance, is a Chinese citizen choosing not be a Christian? They have not reified Christian doctrine passed down by parents, and further, they are likely to have been taught Christianity is wrong. So, no one, operates under the control of their own "free will" whether we are talking psychopaths, Christians, homosexuals, heterosexuals, ect, in the choices we make. Social structure and customs, taking into account the natural qualities possessed by a variety of people, is how choices and behaviors develop. We should make policy changes based on this knowledge to improve relationships between genetic qualities (homosexuality) and legal statutes/conventions.
Would you be referring to this?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who ever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

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Raine

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Just going to interject slightly with an irrelevant and slightly off-topic thought here, but how the hell did a thread discussing marriage change into one that focuses on homosexuality, morals, values, etc.? @[email protected]

Regardless of the nature of the relationship, heterosexual or homosexual, marriage to people are important whether others believe so or not; to each their own in this case, and thus the reason for this discussion thread. From my perspective, marriage seems like a tangible thing that connects two individuals together besides their feelings and commitment to each other. That tangible object, which would be the marriage certificate, documents and signifies their devotion to each other meanwhile symbolizing the connection they share. Though I wouldn't feel it's absolutely necessary for everyone to get married. Like I've started before, and reiterating my point, marriage is not for everyone and there are couples who believe they are better off not getting married merely for the label.

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Just going to interject slightly with an irrelevant and slightly off-topic thought here, but how the hell did a thread discussing marriage change into one that focuses on homosexuality, morals, values, etc.? @[email protected]
One answer: because BadPokemon joined it. >.>

I agree though, I tried to keep it a little on topic but the moment he started throwing around his "I don't like gay marriage because of the Bible" stuff it was already too late. It's interesting that he never actually presented his opinion on the idea of marriage because this topic has nothing to do with the right of homosexuality and all that.

Nonetheless, the conversation has shifted but it's still interesting and actually kind of thought provoking.

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I am going to skip over most of this thread. Ephesians 5:22-33 states the man and women's job in marriage. Marriage is very important because it is a gift from God and it allows the husband and wife to support each other and raise kids. Divorce is a sin unless one has had sex with someone other than who they married to and they divorce. I mean no offense to homosexuals, but being gay is a sin. I don't hate gay people or anything, so don't get me wrong. If I did hate them and shun them, I would be an ignorant hypocrite because I also sin. A lot. But, in different ways. For those who don't appreciate my Christian point of view, here is a slightly more secular argument. A man and women's body parts match up. A guys and a guys don't and a women's and a women's don't. (I think it is for a reason). So no, I think gay marriage is wrong and not as important. Marriage is meant for a man and a women who love each other to become, in a sense, one flesh. Marriage is clearly important from a Christian point of view.
Here is my first post. It was on topic.

One answer: because BadPokemon joined it. >.>

Always seems to be the answer.

I agree though, I tried to keep it a little on topic but the moment he started throwing around his "I don't like gay marriage because of the Bible" stuff it was already too late. It's interesting that he never actually presented his opinion on the idea of marriage because this topic has nothing to do with the right of homosexuality and all that.

I did in my first post. I think the post is right above this.

Nonetheless, the conversation has shifted but it's still interesting and actually kind of thought provoking.

I really do not care if this offends someone, I really don't:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/biblequotes.htm

After reading a few of these, I can whoeheartedly say that the bible is a terrible source for learning morals.



Those are out of context. The Bible sets great moral standards. Many of these deaths are because of severe disobedience to God despite having many chances. (Sodom and Gemora in Genesis)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who ever believe in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

I believe in Jesus Christ my Savior. If you do too, and aren't scared to admit it, then copy and paste this in your signature.

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Lets not get off track. The thread is about marriage.
Yes it is. And I for one start rolling my eyes at anyone who thinks other people's lives should be dictated by another person's religious beliefs, especially when it comes to marriage. It's one thing to hold a belief, which is fine, but another entirely when people take that belief and seek to impose it on others through legislation. I'm not saying this is what you are doing (or have done), but I am pointing out the fact that there are some people with strong religious convictions who HAVE (and still continue to) attempt to influence the laws to make others conform to their religious beliefs (ie. prohibiting same-sex couples from getting married because they view it as being immoral).

I keep being reminded of a lesson my father drilled into me when I was growing up: keep your nose out of other people's business. Essentially, if they're not harming anyone else or committing a criminal act, leave 'em be. What they do in their personal lives does not affect you... unless you choose to interfere.

And I say anyone who even thinks that two people who love each other regardless of their sexual orientation, ethnic background, or other recognized trait, shouldn't get married would be wise to heed that lesson as well.

Marriage is a very personal thing, and anyone interested in becoming a part of the institution should be congratulated and their marriage celebrated. Like I said, the only people it should be up to whether or not they get married is the couple themselves.

Every single licensed psychologist will agree that there are predispositions to psychopathy and sociopathy. There are more studies than I can list that provide a genetic causal link to these conditions. The strongest of which are among identical twins with different parents and upbringings. These predispositions interact with environmental factors (which are naturally occurring [could be argued a derivation of God's work]), largely out of a person's control, such as death or failed relationship. Thus, these conditions are largely due to genetic predispositions, though stressors, can also be attributed to an elevation of these conditions (again, stressors, are a product of nature, or God if you are spiritual/religious). No one has the free will to circumvent these conditions, both "good" or "bad", for lack of better terms.
I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist so I cannot answer any of your points (in your extremely long post -- ever thought of writing a book? :) ) since I haven't invested any time looking into that that particular subject. I do, however, know this: no one is born a murderer and no one is born a rapist. Something that occurs naturally does not necessarily mean it is the result of an innate trait like a person's sex, sexual orientation, the colour of their skin, the colour of their eyes, the colour of their hair, or whether they are left handed or right handed. To murder someone is to make a choice. To rape someone is to make a choice. To be gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender is not. That is why making such comparisons is so insulting and demeaning. You call it mud-slinging. I call it standing up for myself.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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Marriage is a very personal thing, and anyone interested in becoming a part of the institution should be congratulated and their marriage celebrated. Like I said, the only people it should be up to whether or not they get married is the couple themselves.
This is the most true thing that has been written in the subject and I couldn't have said it better myself.