Feminism Page 2

Started by gimmepie March 18th, 2014 5:16 AM
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Star-Lord

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There you go again, ridiculing the intelligence of someone just because they do not have the same opinion as you.
I'm getting the impression that you think I care.

The only thing I think feminism is necessary for is continuing social discrimination in terms of employment and wages, breaking the "glass ceiling", where women can't climb to the top of a business or political ladder simply because they are female. It also sucks that you'll have difficulty keeping a job if you choose to have a kid, from a financial perspective it makes sense to hire a male applicant with less "baggage" but females need to be compensated for the inequality that they have children, not discriminated against for it.
A+ tho. Although I'd also make arguments that we have to work on feminism to include intersectionality including lesbian/transsexual women. Also that we should work on eliminating rape in our culture... body image when it comes to girls... abusive relationships... the list sort of goes on.


Apart from what i've mentioned females have so much power in Western societies, being equal or greater than men, at least in my view.
Which is why women get harassed in the street, are constantly vilified for what they wear and are sexually assaulted a lot?

In heterosexual relationships females are definitely the masters of who they choose to engage with.
The inclusion of heterosexual in this phrase is completely inane. The way it comes across (I'm sure you didn't intend it to - but that's how it comes across so deal lol) is that somehow women in homosexual relationships are somehow not "the masters of who they choose to engage with" when the concept of feminism should include ALL women so I don't understand why you needed to add that at all.

I find anyone with a radical agenda abhorrent, whether that be a feminist, LGBT advocate, extreme right wing Republican, Communist etc. No matter how "good" your cause may be you're being an annoying dick. I'll support equality, but not any 'ism' that only serves the purpose of one group.
What's the problem with the concept of an "ism" only serving one group when they're the only group that needs help?

As for men being taught "not to rape", well, rape is a crime and not acceptable. Legality is all that I need to follow.
It's not so much a legality... since like you said it's obviously against the law but rather the fact that people aren't properly educated on consent laws. It's still happening, and that's a problem that we should try and work behind, not go "It's not acceptable that's all lol".

I'm sorry, I don't think any kind of "ism" is necessary in any part of the world. What I do think is important is equality for everyone. "Isms" of all types are exclusionary by nature which precludes the possibility of equality.
Isms... help oppressed groups...? They're trying to help people get equal to a society where they are not...? IT DOESN'T INCLUDE EVERYONE well no ♥♥♥♥ it doesn't include everyone. If everyone was equal there would be no point for them in the first place.
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Isms... help oppressed groups...? They're trying to help people get equal to a society where they are not...? IT DOESN'T INCLUDE EVERYONE well no ♥♥♥♥ it doesn't include everyone. If everyone was equal there would be no point for them in the first place.
Anything that is exclusionary precludes the possibility that equality can be attained. These "isms" actually work against their own stated goals by being exclusionary.

And come on, do you really need to swear to get your point across? -_-
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Anything that is exclusionary precludes the possibility that equality can be attained. These "isms" actually work against their own stated goals by being exclusionary.p
How is a group working on a marginalized people that actually NEEDS help rather than focusing on everybody period a bad thing? Even with feminism the point was brought up in the thread earlier that feminism helps both men and women so I'm not sure if you just didn't read it or you're choosing to ignore it.

And come on, do you really need to swear to get your point across? -_-
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How is a group working on a marginalized people that actually NEEDS help rather than focusing on everybody period a bad thing? Even with feminism the point was brought up in the thread earlier that feminism helps both men and women so I'm not sure if you just didn't read it or you're choosing to ignore it.
Let me answer your question by posing another: Is a group working to ensure equality of the sexes likely to me more successful than a group that works solely to focus exclusively on woman's rights? There is a distinct difference here that is very subtle, but easily seen.

Feminism, as a concept, is not, and never was, intended to promote equality of the sexes. Its primary stated goal was to promote the rights of women. Men were never included except to illustrate the many injustices done to women.

In my earlier post I said that the dangers of feminism, or any group advocating equality of a disadvantaged group, is that it can quickly become a tool to discriminate against the oppressors. Radical feminism is one such example. It, demonstrably, does not simply seek to ensure equality of the sexes. It seeks to advance the status of women in society at the expense of men, and often to the detriment of men. In other words, it seeks to punish men for past transgressions and elevate women above men. Surely you can see how that does nothing to promote equality at all.

Refer to signature.
Yes, you don't care. So then, if you have so little concern about anything other than yourself, why do you even bother with subjects such as this? Because, as you so bluntly put it: you don't care.
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Keiran

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Anything that is exclusionary precludes the possibility that equality can be attained. These "isms" actually work against their own stated goals by being exclusionary.

And come on, do you really need to swear to get your point across? -_-
The end goal of Feminism is not to get everyone to love each other, it's to destroy power imbalances between all groups of people. If you feel excluded from Feminism and thus believe it's irrelevant take a moment and ask yourself: "why am I against equality? why is something not important if folks like me don't benefit from it?" Feminism doesn't actively seek to benefit people who already benefit from institutionalized racism, sexism, classism and homophobia - and it doesn't need to. Feminists aren't excluding anyone out of hatred - the people who feel excluded don't need feminism to be fully respected and treated as human.

But there are ways that even straight white males can benefit from feminism that I pointed out earlier in this thread (but I feel that it was ignored) - so whom exactly is being excluded?

Another thing I feel that is overlooked and not truly understood by a lot of people is about being told something is offensive. Offensive things aren't offensive mearly because they hurt feelings. They're offensive because they contribute to the societal harm of marginalized groups. This is a very important thing that a lot of people need to learn.
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Let me answer your question by posing another: Is a group working to ensure equality of the sexes likely to me more successful than a group that works solely to focus exclusively on woman's rights? There is a distinct difference here that is very subtle, but easily seen.
The problem with this line of thought is that it doesn't take into account that men are nowhere near as troubled as women as an issue, nor does it deal with the complexities that come with marginalized groups having to have deal with finding their voice over time. It turns into "Why would a group have to focus on men's rights?" Because men don't have problems that need to be worked on. (If you're a men's rights activist you don't even need to reply to me I'm not going to entertain you)

Feminism, as a concept, is not, and never was, intended to promote equality of the sexes. Its primary stated goal was to promote the rights of women. Men were never included except to illustrate the many injustices done to women.
You are ignoring posts that explain that gender roles are an intertwined issue which feminism wants to obstruct. You are ignoring the simple fact that because women were on a lesser view of men it is trying to support equality by raising them to to the same standard as men in a society. Equality can't be given to everybody with one broad stroke. Everybody has needs and considerations that need to be taken into account.

[words] Surely you can see how that does nothing to promote equality at all.
well duh but this is a very visible minority that everybody doesn't take seriously.

Yes, you don't care. So then, if you have so little concern about anything other than yourself, why do you even bother with subjects such as this? Because, as you so bluntly put it: you don't care.
oh honey

I care about the state of the world and feminism because I have women that I respect in my life and I would like to think that they can be seen on the same level on me. I think it's unfair the advantages that I have in life simply due to the fact I was born XY. I truly do have a love for liberal arts and looking at things like this in sociological and historical contexts. Don't get confused.

what I don't care about is when people like you or anybody else has a problem with my attitude on an online forum.

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Honestly, I couldn't read through some of the posts here without getting sick.

Feminism isn't just for women! Many men are assaulted by women too! Only to be told to "suck it up" or something along those lines. Men need feminism because the the typical image of "masculinity" is, in fact, harmful to men.

And honestly if your opinion is harmful it ceases to be "just an opinion".

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I'll answer the third question because my answer will render the other ones moot to me by my way of an opinion.

Am I a feminist and do I agree with feminism?

I'm not a feminist and I don't agree with feminism. In creating a group that demands equality you have stripped your organization of its cause. I'm not saying that all feminists demand it, but it is the primary goal among actual feminists: equality.

I don't want to get into whether it is still relevant or not. I believe women will always be treated differently to men (and vice-versa) because we are somewhat different. By way of nature and evolution we are different. Men are generally physically stronger than women because throughout history the male's role among humans was to hunt for meat. Women show signs of better concentration because for generations they did more intricate tasks within homemaking. This isn't to say women can't be hunters or men can't home-make, but my point is relevant; there will always be a difference, not through environment but through general evolution.

My primary concern with the notion of feminists is that they have divided themselves for a cause. If you want true equality, it is like Morgan Freeman has said, "I'll stop calling you a white man and you stop calling me a black man." If people want to truly get along with one another as if they were one and the same then stop banding off and creating barriers between one another.

I think the movement was necessary, but I think feminists have created enough waves to now let the water settle. Feminists aren't needed in various parts of America, the UK, feminists should give feminism to where feminism is needed. Some parts of Turkey, Afghanistan, even some areas of France are very unfair and unjust. There are other causes about, in my opinion, far more dire than feminism. I think it was a worthy cause, but at the rate a lot of feminists are going (and should a lot have their way) it'll quickly become female supremacy as opposed to equality; overthrowing their initial cause.
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The end goal of Feminism is not to get everyone to love each other, it's to destroy power imbalances between all groups of people.
More accurately, feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. It most certainly does not include "all groups of people."

But I can even demonstrate where feminism has in fact reversed the imbalances of power, not destroying it, resulting in the advancement of woman's rights to the detriment of men. And I can do it by saying two simple words: child custody.
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You do realize that if you ask most feminists (like actually talk to them) they will agree that child custody being so imbalanced is a bad thing, right? You know since they're trying to advocate the equality of both.

please get out of your bubble.

Keiran

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More accurately, feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. It most certainly does not include "all groups of people."

But I can even demonstrate where feminism has in fact reversed the imbalances of power, not destroying it, resulting in the advancement of woman's rights to the detriment of men. And I can do it by saying two simple words: child custody.
Actually you have that backwards. Feminist goals have only brought positive change for men when it comes to child custody. Can you elaborate on where you think feminism harmed the rights of fathers?

I mean a baseball player that recently took a few days off after his wife gave birth is getting a lot of hate from men, while feminists are speaking up for him - saying stuff like fathers are just as important to children as the mother. Feminist bias towards mothers doesn't exist.
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More accurately, feminism is the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. It most certainly does not include "all groups of people."

But I can even demonstrate where feminism has in fact reversed the imbalances of power, not destroying it, resulting in the advancement of woman's rights to the detriment of men. And I can do it by saying two simple words: child custody.
Child Custody is another reason men need feminism and this goes with what Keiran has brought up. The idea that women should only raise the children goes against what feminists believe. I think you need to have discussion with more feminists. :/

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Star-Lord

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If you want to improve conditions for men you're an... idk, there's a word for it
it's called being a feminist since the movement is trying to make both parties neutral by abolishing gender roles.
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Actually you have that backwards. Feminist goals have only brought positive change for men when it comes to child custody. Can you elaborate on where you think feminism harmed the rights of fathers?

I mean a baseball player that recently took a few days off after his wife gave birth is getting a lot of hate from men, while feminists are speaking up for him - saying stuff like fathers are just as important to children as the mother. Feminist bias towards mothers doesn't exist.
Please note that I used the dictionary definition of feminism in my response.

It's not the feminist movement per se but the consequences of the movement's actions over time that has caused the imbalances we are seeing today. We are seeing growing number custody battles in courts where women are favoured over men to have sole custody of children and where men are only allowed limited visitation rights even though these same courts have determined that the man and the woman both equally are capable of raising the children. For the most part, shared custody is only awarded when both parties are already in agreement. But this is not the majority of cases. It's the exception rather than the norm.

The feminists are recognizing this and are admittedly seeking to undo this harm, but the damage has already done. So entrenched are the courts in awarding sole custody to the woman (unless the woman is clearly unfit to be a parent) that it's going to take some very radical action to get things to become more equal.

This is the danger to which I was referring, where the advocacy of one group could be turned into a weapon to oppress the oppressors, even if that wasn't the intent.
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Moogles, I see your point but I think feminists only want to abolish gender roles that are in the interest of women. It's not being an equalist. For example, even though it's in the favour of men feminists don't want to be given special treatment in child custody because it reinforces the traditional *cough sexist cough* ideal that women should be relegated to domestic affairs. Feminism supports feminine traits for females, the ability for females to pursue masculine pursuits if they so choose and to a limited extent for men to get in touch with their feminine side, although i'm severely doubtful many feminists would show up to a rally for men to be free of stigma in female oriented professions. What does feminism think of masculine traits in men though? From what i've seen it can be condescending to say the least, which is not the way to go if you want to completely demolish gender roles and practice tolerance like an equalist would.
The thing is that you can't seperate gender roles as a man/female thing completely and utterly because the way our culture and society is set up (I speak mainly of western) is because gender roles are irrevocably tangled together. The classic example that I use is that men are "sex pigs" because women "won't put out". These two work together to pain a picture of what many people see societally as a fact. So when I say feminism's goal is abolishing gender roles, I mean that it goes in for both because of the nature of how gender roles work in the first place.

At this point I haven't really argued much, just expressed my own opinion, which is that I think the majority of feminists don't want equality, if they did they would care about both women and men. I see the logic of only focusing on your gender but what happens once you get what you want, where does it end? As Alessi says I can see moderate feminism transforming into an oppressive superiority complex.
I honestly question if people go and talk to someone that identifies as a feminist, rather than just saying ideals of what they think feminism is about based off of radical things they've read online.

Also, I'd like to point out that a certain portion of feminists campaigning for their own rights is superceded by a faction that simply hates men.
Post the #receipts

Are people saying men don't get raped?
No why would anybody-

Because that is not true. In the united states, men get raped more than women. I didn't bother to view the statistics though.
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Are people saying men don't get raped? Because that is not true. In the united states, men get raped more than women. I didn't bother to view the statistics though.
I'm sorry, but statistically woman are sexually assaulted far more often than men are. Just a few statistics from Canada:

http://sacha.ca/fact-sheets/statistics
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gimmepie

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So many of you seem to be assuming that there's no or few body image or masculinity/femininity or other issues with men. But that doesn't really matter because the core ideal of feminism is equality via the abolition of all gender roles.

That's the problem though, the actions of feminism don't always match this ideal and despite this goal being called feminism is exclusionary of men simply through its name.

I dislike feminism, simply because I have come to believe that despite this supposed goal of the abolition of gender roles entirely the group still has too much of a focus on women. Here are two examples

a) A case goes to court; A young girl is in a relationship with a slightly older boy. They have been sexually active and she has even told her friend that she likes it. They break up though, and then her story changed and she claims she was being date-raped. The case goes to court, and despite evidence saying that it was consensual sex the public in general side with the girl simply because the boy must be lying because all men are ruthless sex obsessed pigs. Feminist groups support the girl, because she is female, so how could she be lying obviously the boy is a rapist because he is a boy.

b) Feminists are still pretty quick to say "you should never hit a woman" but won't go nuts of a woman slapping her husband in a domestic dispute (they will not claim it is right, but they would not go mad about it like they would if it was the other way around). If they truly wanted equality, it would be equally wrong to physically harm anyone of any gender and equally okay to harm anyone of any gender should it be necessary.

I want equality for everyone, and quite frankly I don't think feminism will every achieve that. To be completely honest though, I believe men and women are equal in western society.

This stuff about men earning more than women, I have never seen anything like it in my country and there's plenty of women in positions of power throughout the world. Furthermore, men have just as many problems associated with their gender as women do. Feminism is not needed in Western society, there are much more important things to be concerned about than trying to reach an equality that has actually already been obtained.

Sorry if this read like gibberish, I'm sleepy.

Edit:
@Alessi - Those statistics are based on reports. Men don't report these incidents as much because it makes them appear weak and therefore not masculine and therefore brings shame on them. Theoretically feminism would seek to fix this issue as well, but it never will because feminism is full of hollow ideals.
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@Alessi - Those statistics are based on reports. Men don't report these incidents as much because it makes them appear weak and therefore not masculine and therefore brings shame on them. Theoretically feminism would seek to fix this issue as well, but it never will because feminism is full of hollow ideals.
Almost all statistics are report based, crime statistics especially. However, as they are the only points of publically available information we have to go on, it's all that can be cited. I am sure the statistics could indeed be higher as people of both sexes may opt not to report a rape, but since there's no reliable way to count un-reported incidents we can't rely on them to provide an accurate count. The statistics we have that are available are the best we have to go on unfortunately.
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a) A case goes to court; A young girl is in a relationship with a slightly older boy. They have been sexually active and she has even told her friend that she likes it. They break up though, and then her story changed and she claims she was being date-raped. The case goes to court, and despite evidence saying that it was consensual sex the public in general side with the girl simply because the boy must be lying because all men are ruthless sex obsessed pigs. Feminist groups support the girl, because she is female, so how could she be lying obviously the boy is a rapist because he is a boy.

b) Feminists are still pretty quick to say "you should never hit a woman" but won't go nuts of a woman slapping her husband in a domestic dispute (they will not claim it is right, but they would not go mad about it like they would if it was the other way around). If they truly wanted equality, it would be equally wrong to physically harm anyone of any gender and equally okay to harm anyone of any gender should it be necessary.
1. Get off your computer
2. Go to your nearest women's center and find a feminist
3. Talk to them about these scenarios
4. Realize that most feminists think these scenarios would be abhorrent.

I want equality for everyone, and quite frankly I don't think feminism will every achieve that. To be completely honest though, I believe men and women are equal in western society.
I've brought it up before but women are cat called, judged on their sexual promiscuity, "glass ceiling", if you honestly think women and men today stand equal in western society you are ignoring everything in this thread or you are blind. Literally go talk to a woman.
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Realize that most feminists think these scenarios would be abhorrent.
Of course some would (not all). But this is the point: although this was not the goal of the feminist movement, it nevertheless is the direct result of it. It's unintended, to be sure, and it needs to be remedied quickly before it gets any more out of hand. The problem is, the feminists who disagree with these scenarios are largely silent because of the overwhelmingly loud voices of the radical feminists who cheer when these things happen to males.
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I'm sorry, but statistically woman are sexually assaulted far more often than men are. Just a few statistics from Canada:

http://sacha.ca/fact-sheets/statistics

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2449454/More-men-raped-US-women-including-prison-sexual-abuse.html

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This is an insanely stupid statistic. Prison rape should be treated differently from rape in our normal society. Also men are the ones raping men, for any naysayers who don't think that men are the proponents of most cases of sexual assault ;)

Try again.

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This is an insanely stupid statistic. Prison rape should be treated differently from rape in our normal society. Also men are the ones raping men, for any naysayers who don't think that men are the proponents of most cases of sexual assault ;)

Try again.
I never said women were raping men. I have nothing against women. I simply said that it seems to me that male rape is never treated as seriously. "Oh, he wanted it."

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I never said women were raping men. I have nothing against women. I simply said that it seems to me that male rape is never treated as seriously. "Oh, he wanted it."
Reading comprehension: You lack.

Ok to be a bit nicer, I'd honestly read my post over again because I never said you specifically. I said "any naysayers" because I know that in discussions like this there are people who have those sorts of thoughts. I would agree that male rape isn't taken as seriously, but to be honest our society hardly takes female rape seriously. This is something that feminism is against, because well, if you can't take a women crying rape seriously and having naysayers go "OH SHE'S FAKING IT WHAT WAS SHE WEARING SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT" then... how are we going to treat male victims properly?