Feminism Page 3

Started by gimmepie March 18th, 2014 5:16 AM
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Ivysaur

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You are using the Daily Mail as a source. I hope you realize how wrong it is to use the Daily Mail as a source for anything. In case you don't, I'll let you know that the Daily Mail is composed of:

a) 20% "X Gives You Cancer" bull.
b) 30% outright lies.
c) 30% misinformation and manipulation.
d) 20% bad football puns.

That article is a wondeful example of c). If you bother reading more than the first line, you'll notice the data is about rape in prison. And since the incarceration rates in the US are mindblowingly unbalanced (10 males per each female), it's not really surprising that there are more men raped in prison than women- in fact, it would be rather insane if that wasn't the case.

Meanwhile, hidden in the bottom of the artcle, which very few people will ever see, you can find this line.

According to official statistics on rape conviction rates, the U.S. Bureau of Justice said 91 per cent of the victims were women and 99 per cent of the perpetrators were men.
So no, there aren't more men victims of rape than women in the US.
Age 28
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Posted July 3rd, 2018
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I think that feminism as "equality for the sexes" is still needed in this day of age. I consider myself a feminist. I too think that we should talk about rape, and the fact that we're talking about rape in this thread is a good thing. As a culture we must teach respect for others. At the same time when it comes to rape cases we must be careful with siding on one side or the other. What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't call the one saying she or he was raped a phony because we disagree with their acussation, plus he or she could be telling the truth, or the one being accused a monster as he or she could be innocent. I had a professor tell the class (it was a multiculturalism class) that we must balance the two, as in the past one would side with the accused, but now it's with the accuser, and that's before the case has even been started...

By the way I consider my feminism to be more similar to the "first wave" feminists, in that we are against abortion; here are some quotes

“Perhaps there will come a time when… an unmarried mother will not be despised because of her motherhood… and when the right of the unborn to be born will not be denied or interfered with.” – Caroline Norton

“Every woman knows that if she were free, she would never bear an unwished-for child, nor think of murdering one before its birth.” – Victoria Woodhull

“When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit.” – Elizabeth Cady Stanton

“There were four hundred murders annually produced by abortion in this county alone… There must be a remedy to such a crying evil as this. But where should it be found, at least begin, if not in the complete enfranchisement and elevation of women?”– Elizabeth Cady Stanton

“Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women.” – Alice Paul

you can find more here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Abortion_%281500-1900%29

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By the way I consider my feminism to be more similar to the "first wave" feminists, in that we are against abortion.
Oh boy, now you're opening a whole different can of worms. I do find it interesting, though, that you support a version of feminism that is in essence advocating for the denial of a woman's right to decide her own medical treatment. Now I really don't wish to get into the topic of abortion, because that is not what this thread is about, but it is a proven fact that 70% of all conceptions result in spontaneous abortions (aka miscarriage). I know there are some laws on the books in some places that actually criminalize spontaneous abortions if it is determined that a woman's lifestyle possibly was in part responsible for the miscarriage occurring, and I know some are advocating that a woman who is pregnant and who is deemed to be engaging in behaviour that could potentially be harmful to an growing fetus, be incarcerated and whatever steps necessary to protect the fetus be taken, including, but not limited to strapping a woman down to a bed until she delivers the baby.

So what do you do then? Are women who conceive a child but then suffer a miscarriage, in your opinion, guilty of murder, since a miscarriage is a form of abortion, only it is decided by the body not the woman consciously? Would you advocate the detention and possible restraining of a woman to a bed in order to protect the growing fetus, which 70% of the time may abort anyway?

Your version of feminism is precisely the kind of danger I alluded to in a previous post.

I like what a friend of mine said, who is a feminist. She said to a bunch of anti-abortionists, "If you don't have a uterus, stay out of mine!"

I agree with her. We would be far better off if we stopped sticking our noses where they don't belong. I think our lives are complicated enough without us trying to complicate it further by trying to dictate to others how they should live their lives.
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gimmepie

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@Moogles - I talk to plenty of women every day, at least three of the women I talk to regularly are identify as feminists, even they admit that I'm not totally wrong.

Yes, women are cat called and judged for their promiscuity. Guess what, men are judged for their lack of promiscuity and disinterest in objectifying women, even by women. Even by some feminists.

I am neither blind, nor ignoring what I have read in this thread. I see plenty of posts that agree with me, and plenty that don't. I'm not disregarding the points of those who are against my perspective, I'm disagreeing with them. That's how a debate works.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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Can we all just agree that maybe what's more important than women's rights is everyone's rights? There are gender inequalities that exist with men as well as with women and radfem's obsession with targeting 50% of the population is absolute ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. We shouldn't even be looking at gender in the first place which is why I feel that feminism has long outdone its welcome, and instead we should be focusing on equal rights.

Star-Lord

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Can we all just maybe agree that men are more privileged than women in society today? There are gender inequalities that are intertwined together, but until we start focusing on a marginalized group we won't be able to attain a true equality. Gender still exists in our society and we need to fix it which exactly why feminism as a concept is still very much in date with our society. We should be focusing on equal rights

There I fixed it for you. Thank me later.

Corvus of the Black Night

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Why do people think that one gender is more important than the other? By considering both genders equal, privilege becomes an obsolete reason. Privilege is an artifact from developing away from a patriarchal society and relying on it for a reason to justify only supporting one kind of person's rights is obsolete.

Also, men's problems are important: Men, on average, are incarcerated longer for the same crimes than women. Men are required to sign up for the draft in order to get financial aid from the government for college. Legally, men cannot be raped unless they are penetrated, thus absolving most male molestation cases. While society is more accepting of women being leaders, men are often criticized for having feelings or emotions (man tears). Men have more difficulty gaining custody of their children than women, even if the wife was abusive (this has happened to my mother).

Women have made substantial advancements in equal rights. However, this is not just about women, this is about people. Everyone understands the ♥♥♥♥ing concept of privilege but that doesn't mean that it's the end all be all. Privilege does not absolve the non-minorities of issues.

I do not believe that men should be above women. Far from it. However, instead of targeting just women's issues, we should target gendered issues in general.

Please go back to tumblr.

P.S. I am a woman that is apparently "affected" by the "patriachy" and I have never been discriminated against for my gender. Ever. I have seen much more discrimination against men, such as the concept that all men are sex hungry rapists and how men are horrible things and ♥♥♥♥ like that.

Star-Lord

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Why do people think that one gender is more important than the other? By considering both genders equal, privilege becomes an obsolete reason.
Because historically we grew up with notions that being born male was superior which then became socially ingrained into our thoughts.

Also, men's problems are important: Men, on average, are incarcerated longer for the same crimes than women. Men are required to sign up for the draft in order to get financial aid from the government for college. Legally, men cannot be raped unless they are penetrated, thus absolving most male molestation cases. While society is more accepting of women being leaders, men are often criticized for having feelings or emotions (man tears). Men have more difficulty gaining custody of their children than women, even if the wife was abusive (this has happened to my mother).
Nobody is denying this. Feminism also works against this too. Read. Read. Read. Go talk to people and understand the movement.

Women have made substantial advancements in equal rights. However, this is not just about women, this is about people.
yes...... we feminists are aware of such..............

I do not believe that men should be above women. Far from it. However, instead of targeting just women's issues, we should target gendered issues in general.
I have already made posts connecting to how they are intertwined as a singular issue together.

Please go back to tumblr.
Honey if you think I'm a "tumblr radical feminist" then boy do I have bad news to share with you

Kanzler

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Can we all just maybe agree that men are more privileged than women in society today? There are gender inequalities that are intertwined together, but until we start focusing on a marginalized group we won't be able to attain a true equality. Gender still exists in our society and we need to fix it which exactly why feminism as a concept is still very much in date with our society. We should be focusing on equal rights

There I fixed it for you. Thank me later.
Doesn't focusing on marginalized groups as "marginalized groups" reinforce the perception that they are marginalized to some extent? In order to fix something you need to see it as a problem, but when your approach is to a part instead of to the whole, that could be divisive and exacerbate tensions (which we see in this thread) instead of resolving them.

Corvus of the Black Night

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Because historically we grew up with notions that being born male was superior which then became socially ingrained into our thoughts.
This is changing however. To refuse to accept this change implies that you are failing to recognize the changes and advancements people have made.

Nobody is denying this. Feminism also works against this too. Read. Read. Read. Go talk to people and understand the movement.

yes...... we feminists are aware of such..............

I have already made posts connecting to how they are intertwined as a singular issue together.
Then why do you object throwing this privilege ♥♥♥♥ out the window and looking at the problems for what they are and targeting all inequality? What crime is it to actually view each person as a person who deserves equal rights as a human being? Feminism started off with this premise and it has dissolved with many people.

The frank reality is that issues exist for both genders, and just because one gender has more doesn't mean that their inequalities are more important. Everyone faces unfair inequalities every day. This isn't a race for "the person who's more oppressed".

Honey if you think I'm a "tumblr radical feminist" then boy do I have bad news to share with you
You're not doing much to prove yourself otherwise. Also, nice going with "honey" which is actually a put down for women. Good job.

Star-Lord

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Doesn't focusing on marginalized groups as "marginalized groups" reinforce the perception that they are marginalized to some extent?
That's... the point? How is this a bad thing you need to expand upon it.

In order to fix something you need to see it as a problem, but when your approach is to a part instead of to the whole, that could be divisive and exacerbate tensions (which we see in this thread) instead of resolving them.
The issue is that men don't need things that they exclusively need help with - Feminism focuses on women because the way women/men are treated in society is intertwined due to our gender roles and how they work together in the first place.

also @ the person who said "go back to tumblr" now I'm laughing at you because you're literally telling people to go back to one of the few places on the internet where they can have these opinions so you're basically saying "Go back to where people won't treat you like ♥♥♥♥" gg.

Corvus of the Black Night

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That's... the point? How is this a bad thing you need to expand upon it.

The issue is that men don't need things that they exclusively need help with - Feminism focuses on women because the way women/men are treated in society is intertwined due to our gender roles and how they work together in the first place.
Are you ♥♥♥♥ing kidding me? Men don't need things that they exclusively need help with? Did you read the 5 ♥♥♥♥ing issues that men have (which is nowhere near a comprehensive list)? You're already starting off by segregating women from men by saying that women's problems are more important. Kanzler is saying that by saying that one is more important than the other you're still marginalizing them.

To quote myself again
Then why do you object throwing this privilege ♥♥♥♥ out the window and looking at the problems for what they are and targeting all inequality? What crime is it to actually view each person as a person who deserves equal rights as a human being? Feminism started off with this premise and it has dissolved with many people.

also @ the person who said "go back to tumblr" now I'm laughing at you because you're literally telling people to go back to one of the few places on the internet where they can have these opinions so you're basically saying "Go back to where people won't treat you like ♥♥♥♥" gg.
tumblr, land where if you're white, or straight, or cis, or male, is where you'll be crucified like a mother♥♥♥♥er and have people harass you off the site. Yep, real nice environment there. Anyways people probably would be nice to you for the sheer fact that you pretty much claim privilege is the only reason that we should support feminism because "historically women have it harder than men". Please shut up.

Also, for people's information.

Read this.

Star-Lord

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This is changing however. To refuse to accept this change implies that you are failing to recognize the changes and advancements people have made.
hmm i sure do wonder which social movements led to that.


Then why do you object throwing this privilege ♥♥♥♥ out the window and looking at the problems for what they are and targeting all inequality? What crime is it to actually view each person as a person who deserves equal rights as a human being? Feminism started off with this premise and it has dissolved with many people.
I have absolutely no idea where you're getting that I don't respect everybody as a human being or whatever in your latter part. And I don't throw privilege out the window because... people live and have different experiences based on what their identity is... this isn't an insanely hard concept.

The frank reality is that issues exist for both genders, and just because one gender has more doesn't mean that their inequalities are more important. Everyone faces unfair inequalities every day. This isn't a race for "the person who's more oppressed".
You're taking what I'm saying and running the wrong way with it. I've never said that men's inequalities are less important, because that is not the case. I'm saying that women have more, and since they are linked together with those of men, it makes more sense to focus on women because in the end we will achieve and end result where everyone is safe.

You're not doing much to prove yourself otherwise.
There are people who say all penis in vagina sex is rape on tumblr so I'd like to think that I'm nowhere near as delusional.

Are you ♥♥♥♥ing kidding me? Men don't need things that they exclusively need help with? Did you read the 5 ♥♥♥♥ing issues that men have (which is nowhere near a comprehensive list)? You're already starting off by segregating women from men by saying that women's problems are more important. [i]Kanzler is saying that by saying that one is more important than the other you're still marginalizing them.
Men and women's issues are interconnected because of gender roles in society. Lemme break down in 2 ways where I can show this:

1. Child Custody - Men receive less support because women are seen as more "nurturing" and that they will have more chance to take care of the child properly. This is false; feminism believes that these gender roles are wrong and would like to see Child Custody be seen as an equal share based on what is happening in the individual family itself.
2. The legal definition of rape - This is a problem that occurs because our society is uneducated on rape as a topic. If we can hardly take it seriously when women accuse a sexual assault (Getting asked what they were wearing, if it really happened, if they're just accusing someone) then how are we supposed to take male victims seriously, and consequently have a legal definition of rape that is accurate?




tumblr, land where if you're white, or straight, or cis, or male, is where you'll be crucified like a mother♥♥♥♥er and have people harass you off the site.
translation: i have never been on tumblr before in my life

(People do get harassed off the website but the vast majority of people condemn these actions)

Please shut up.
No.

Also, for people's information.

Read this.
Everyone should read this! Gender issues for both men and women are really important :) Feminism is trying to help in that regard.

Kanzler

naughty biscotti

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Toronto
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Posted March 11th, 2022
5,957 posts
14.8 Years
Are you ♥♥♥♥ing kidding me? Men don't need things that they exclusively need help with? Did you read the 5 ♥♥♥♥ing issues that men have (which is nowhere near a comprehensive list)? You're already starting off by segregating women from men by saying that women's problems are more important. Kanzler is saying that by saying that one is more important than the other you're still marginalizing them.
To expand on that, it's hard for people to treat "marginalized groups" as normal when they're being labelled as marginalized and treated as other. I think the end-goal is to have "marginalized groups" integrated with the rest of society and treated as normal, yes? Or at least be able to treat them as female/queer/race etc etc without fear of offending or victimizing them. There's a certain member who's gay but I never feel that the label marginalizes him, he really does a good job of defining himself, by iunno, being himself. I only hope that it could be the same for many others.
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Oh boy, now you're opening a whole different can of worms. I do find it interesting, though, that you support a version of feminism that is in essence advocating for the denial of a woman's right to decide her own medical treatment. Now I really don't wish to get into the topic of abortion, because that is not what this thread is about, but it is a proven fact that 70% of all conceptions result in spontaneous abortions (aka miscarriage). I know there are some laws on the books in some places that actually criminalize spontaneous abortions if it is determined that a woman's lifestyle possibly was in part responsible for the miscarriage occurring, and I know some are advocating that a woman who is pregnant and who is deemed to be engaging in behaviour that could potentially be harmful to an growing fetus, be incarcerated and whatever steps necessary to protect the fetus be taken, including, but not limited to strapping a woman down to a bed until she delivers the baby.

So what do you do then? Are women who conceive a child but then suffer a miscarriage, in your opinion, guilty of murder, since a miscarriage is a form of abortion, only it is decided by the body not the woman consciously? Would you advocate the detention and possible restraining of a woman to a bed in order to protect the growing fetus, which 70% of the time may abort anyway?

Your version of feminism is precisely the kind of danger I alluded to in a previous post.

I like what a friend of mine said, who is a feminist. She said to a bunch of anti-abortionists, "If you don't have a uterus, stay out of mine!"

I agree with her. We would be far better off if we stopped sticking our noses where they don't belong. I think our lives are complicated enough without us trying to complicate it further by trying to dictate to others how they should live their lives.
It's not about sticking our noses into other people's "business" it's about defending the Right of Life. The way pro-choice people talk about their stance has reminded me of the way pro-slavery people used State Rights here in the U.S. as their excuse for why the federal government should stay out... I beleive that when someone's life is in danger one should step in and do something, not stand back and say "it's none of my business." Pro-choice people say that fetuses aren't living being in order to dehumanized them, just like how racists called blacks and others "sub-human", and sexists called women "inferior". By the way while I may be a men there are women who agree with my views, as can be seen by the early female feminists and the modern day pro-life feminist movement.


Also...you shouldn't have mentioned miscaraged as abortion...as that's far different...trust me...I've had family experienced it...
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It's not about sticking our noses into other people's "business" it's about defending the Right of Life. The way pro-choice people talk about their stance has reminded me of the way pro-slavery people used State Rights here in the U.S. as their excuse for why the federal government should stay out... I beleive that when someone's life is in danger one should step in and do something, not stand back and say "it's none of my business." Pro-choice people say that fetuses aren't living being in order to dehumanized them, just like how racists called blacks and others "sub-human", and sexists called women "inferior". By the way while I may be a men there are women who agree with my views, as can be seen by the early female feminists and the modern day pro-life feminist movement.


Also...you shouldn't have mentioned miscaraged as abortion...as that's far different...trust me...I've had family experienced it...
I said I'm not going to get into an abortion debate, and I'm not. If you want to talk about abortions, I would suggest starting a separate thread on the topic. I don't think this is the thread for such a discussion.
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twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

Age 32
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The key thing to remember is that feminism is a very broad term that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I don't think it's possible to have a sane discussion about it without breaking down what you mean by it.

Personally, I take issue with the word itself. It's basically "female-ism." Proponents try to say that it advocates equality, but the word itself suggests otherwise. That's why I prefer the term "egalitarianism" if that's what you really mean.

I don't have the time nor the mental fortitude to read through all 90+ posts in this thread, so I'll address a few things I saw in the first several.
Feminism is the former, and the latter is obviously something that needs to be taught. 0___o
I think the point was that certain segments are advocating teaching it specifically to men. Rape is wrong universally. Singling out men is extremely demeaning to men and reinforces, to a degree, a very problematic and obviously untrue notion: that men can't be raped by women.

I think most people figure out that rape is unethical as a matter of course, but if it's something that's going to be "taught," it should be taught to everyone and not with an emphasis on male-on-female rape (and probably as a larger curriculum on ethics in general, since rape is a form of coercion, which is unethical 9 times out of 10 anyway.

I'm sorry but if someone doesn't think that feminism is necessary in the western world then they are a moron. There is no question about it. Feminism as a concept attacks the double-edged notion of gender roles among other things. I've given up on trying to entertain those who sincerely doubt the impact and importance of feminism.
Feminism's a very broad term. There are a lot of people, like me, who would simply ask what you mean by it. There are some who assume you mean something you probably don't mean. And then there are others who are legitimately sexist. You're being unfair to the first two groups and for the third, I'd suggest reading this. You'll never convince anyone of your beliefs if you do nothing but demonize anyone who espouses the opposing viewpoint, and insulating yourself with others who agree with you will change nothing.

lmao, i'm a radical feminist, and i would like to know your sources for those claims.

it's a bit funny how it was stated that radical feminists "has introduced concepts such as patriarchy" as though these are recent topics -- even before the advent of radical feminism (which was in the 1980s to 1990s), the concept of a patriarchy was already much established in formal feminist analyses and critiques. if anything, the perception that the concept of patriarchy was recently established only shows that contemporary "feminists" are moving away from the already-established political body and movement. it also shows that the word "feminism" has become a sort of umbrella term for anything that suggests equality between the sexes and female ""empowerment,"" rather than a political movement that relies on critical analyses of gender, sex-based oppression and, yes, patriarchy.

and to answer the main question, yes, it's still relevant. i can't speak for people living in western societies given that i'm not a westerner myself, but even given *legal* equality, one can't say that we are already living in a post-patriarchal, liberated society -- a society is made up much more than it's laws, and i think that's obvious enough. that there exists a differential treatment between the sexes in terms of roles and socialisation, that there exists structures of power (religious institutions, etc.) that seek to police the bodies and behaviour of one or both sexes, only shows that the problem is social and cultural, and will take much more than a few legislations can fix.
First, what do you mean by "patriarchy?" Because the word "patriarchy," as far as I understand it, literally means "a society led by men." It's true a lot of our political leaders are men, but that could just indicate a lack of will by women to get into politics. I can't say I blame them.

But what people seem to mean by this is that there is a systemic favoring of men over women. I hardly think this is true. It is true that there are some constructs in society that favor men over women, and I think we need to fix those. The converse is also true: there are some constructs in society that favor women over men, and we need to fix those, too.

I think you're misunderstanding what people mean by "radical feminism" because it's nearly as vague as the word "feminism" itself is. We're talking about the ideas like "women's issues are the only important issues" or "anyone who suggests a supposed issue isn't an issue is sexist." Stuff like that. There seem to be more of these people lately and it's unfortunate.

There's another issue that I think plays into "radical feminism" and it's this whole idea of every single thing needing to respect women. There are certain things that won't respect women, and that's fine. Fictive works, where the world is mostly likely grounded in some way in our own, and nobody would be able to relate if it didn't share the same kinds of problems ours has. Historical works, where it's merely describing what has already happened. Comedy, where offensive jokes are often self-ridiculing or making a larger point. And private conversations (which nobody else has any business listening to anyway), where people are often either expressing first (often instinctive) reactions to something or just joking. All of these things, they are not areas where anyone should be focusing their efforts, and despite that, a lot of people do. This kind of thing borders on thought-policing, really, and I think that only serves to work against their ultimate goal (or what it should be: equal opportunity and fair treatment).
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Esper

California
Seen June 30th, 2018
Posted June 30th, 2018
I consider myself a feminist. I come to this conclusion because, although the ultimate goal is for everyone to be treated without prejudice or bias, there's more work that needs to be done to undo the greater amount of discrimination against women than there is to men. I would like to say I'm an egalitarian, but I don't want to insinuate that there is an equal amount of problems or issues for women and men, or at least that if there are an equal number that they negatively affect women and men to the same degree. For instance, yes, it's true that anyone can potentially rape anyone, but for some reason(s) men overwhelmingly are the perpetrators and that shouldn't be ignored. The whole "teach men not to rape" is a response to the idea that women are/should be responsible to keep themselves from being raped, i.e., that it's women's fault that they get raped, which isn't true. "Teach men not to tape" may not be the perfect approach, but I think it moves the conversation away from where it isn't doing any good.

The patriarchy term is, I believe, used to describe a society that generally favors men and/or promotes a kind of male-centric view, in particular, the use of "the patriarchy" is used to claim that we already are in a patriarchy and to establish this as a given before engaging in discussion. Of course people will feel differently about how strongly "the patriarchy" is in society, but I think it's important to note that it's not a term limited to "men have it better" but that it has certain aspects that are damaging to men and to women, such as the whole "boys don't cry" idea, which teaches boys not to express their emotions.

Blu·Ray

Manta Ray Pokémon

Age 25
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Denmark
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Posted August 12th, 2016
382 posts
13.1 Years
Honestly, as twocows says, people; define your terms!
Really a lot of the discussions in here are based on some misunderstanding of each other's definitions of feminism.

Esper, I don't agree with your definition of an egalitarian. Egalitarians don't see the issues being of equal quantity nor importance, but rather focuses on the end product being equality, which ideally should be worked towards from both sides of the spectrum.

Also, I don't think that equality should necessarily be our end goal, but rather the individuality, and the individual's right to be different. Some women would rather stay at home to look after her kids of she wants to without others calling her oppressed, and likewise should she be allowed to do business all day and become a billionaire. I see the goal being equal possibilities for everyone, but individual adaptations of this master plan.

Tek

Age 33
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Posted May 1st, 2020
939 posts
9.6 Years
The key thing to remember is that feminism is a very broad term that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I don't think it's possible to have a sane discussion about it without breaking down what you mean by it.
This.

I think the point was that certain segments are advocating teaching it specifically to men. Rape is wrong universally. Singling out men is extremely demeaning to men and reinforces, to a degree, a very problematic and obviously untrue notion: that men can't be raped by women.

I think most people figure out that rape is unethical as a matter of course, but if it's something that's going to be "taught," it should be taught to everyone and not with an emphasis on male-on-female rape (and probably as a larger curriculum on ethics in general, since rape is a form of coercion, which is unethical 9 times out of 10 anyway.
Certainly rape is committed by both sexes, and is always wrong. It is also true, as far as we know, that men are much more likely to force themselves upon women than the other way around. It makes sense to target the education to those that need educating.

The point that was a source of a minor conflict earlier is that we should be sure that we are not making broad and baseless assertions when addressing the issue (e.g. implicitly stating that all men are rapists deep down).


First, what do you mean by "patriarchy?" Because the word "patriarchy," as far as I understand it, literally means "a society led by men." It's true a lot of our political leaders are men, but that could just indicate a lack of will by women to get into politics. I can't say I blame them.

But what people seem to mean by this is that there is a systemic favoring of men over women. I hardly think this is true. It is true that there are some constructs in society that favor men over women, and I think we need to fix those. The converse is also true: there are some constructs in society that favor women over men, and we need to fix those, too.
I think it's important to differentiate dominator hierarchies with natural hierarchies. It is often believed that all hierarchy is bad and must be removed to make culture-society better. Which ignores not only that hierarchy is the very basis of all evolution, biological or otherwise (the human body itself is a particularly complex hierarchy), but also ignores that attempting to wipe out all hierarchy is itself a domination of others - the very thing that was supposed to be eliminated.

Feminists are not the only group of people guilty of this misconception, nor are all individual feminists guilty of it. But it does seem to be prevalent within the movement.


For instance, yes, it's true that anyone can potentially rape anyone, but for some reason(s) men overwhelmingly are the perpetrators and that shouldn't be ignored. The whole "teach men not to rape" is a response to the idea that women are/should be responsible to keep themselves from being raped, i.e., that it's women's fault that they get raped, which isn't true. "Teach men not to tape" may not be the perfect approach, but I think it moves the conversation away from where it isn't doing any good.
I want to take objection to one thing here: women have a responsibility to keep themselves out of dangerous situations, just as men have a responsibility not to create those situations. You can't always control your environment, but you can always choose to act differently.

Star-Lord

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I want to take objection to one thing here: women have a responsibility to keep themselves out of dangerous situations, just as men have a responsibility not to create those situations. You can't always control your environment, but you can always choose to act differently.
I see where you're coming from with regards to the notion of taking responsibility for the state you get yourself in but to apply this to rape is wrong. You just can't compare it to getting jacked/tripping over and smashing your nose because of your drinking, for example. It takes personal violation to a level beyond which personal accountability can be accounted for.

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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Certainly rape is committed by both sexes, and is always wrong. It is also true, as far as we know, that men are much more likely to force themselves upon women than the other way around. It makes sense to target the education to those that need educating.
As far as we know, yes. The problem is, our knowledge of the issue is very poor. That may well be the case, or it may be a lot more equal than we thought. I hear a lot of estimates about instances of unreported rape, I have no idea what the numbers are for that (obviously, nobody does). I know that the stigma is definitely there for men not to report it. It's seen as weakness and some people refuse to even acknowledge it exists. I think if we're going to make it a point to specifically educate people about rape in particular, we need to start with the knowledge that we don't really know the numbers because a lot of it goes unreported and make no assumptions. I don't think it's much to ask to treat both sexes equally in this kind of education.
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Tek

Age 33
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Kansas City
Seen May 28th, 2020
Posted May 1st, 2020
939 posts
9.6 Years
I see where you're coming from with regards to the notion of taking responsibility for the state you get yourself in but to apply this to rape is wrong. You just can't compare it to getting jacked/tripping over and smashing your nose because of your drinking, for example. It takes personal violation to a level beyond which personal accountability can be accounted for.
How could it not apply to rape? Every decision that you make, every action that you take (or don't take) affects what happens to you. Everywhere and always, this is true.

Let's look at concrete actions that can be taken to avoid being raped. A woman can choose to:
  • Stay out of bad neighborhoods - ask a male friend to pick up your weed for you or travel in a group, take a longer route to the grocery store that doesn't require you to be in the hood.
  • Stay away from bad men - you can't always tell who is violent, but sometimes you can, though you'll never reach a conclusion if you don't attempt to gather data.
  • Don't get trashed to the point where you can't walk at a party full of strangers - know your limits.
  • Buy a can of mace or take martial arts, and maintain vigilance - be proactive about your personal safety, learn the ways that you can defend yourself against someone bigger and stronger than yourself.
Obviously, there are going to be situations out of one's control. But this is absolutely no excuse for not taking measures to ensure your well-being. The victim mentality is the most pervasive and most destructive mental attitude that I have ever witnessed, not to mention that it is completely out of touch with reality.

Every human being, and in fact every object, is both a whole entity, and a part of a larger entity. Which means that every human being has both rights, as a independent agent, and responsibilities, as a part of a larger whole. Applied directly to this context, that statement sounds something like this: Every woman has a right to live in a world where she doesn't have to fear being raped. Every woman also has a responsibility to do whatever she is able to avoid being raped.

Kanzler

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14.8 Years
This is what I heard, so treat it as the feminine version of broscience, but most rape happens between people who know each other. What comes to mind is douchey boyfriend taking advantage of girl. I can't imagine how I could rape my current girlfriend (because there's communication in a relationship), but apparently it's a thing. Perhaps someone can try to fill us in on an archetypal people-who-know-each-other rape situation.

That being said, yes. A victim mentality is incredibly destructive. It's something I see on the forum (not necessarily tied to rape and sexual issues, i haven't encountered it in that specific context), and I'll admit that I've been tempted by it before and it's one of the reasons I avoid certain threads and posts. It's a sorry but very addictive excuse for inaction.

Star-Lord

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Posted April 14th, 2018
715 posts
14.3 Years
How could it not apply to rape? Every decision that you make, every action that you take (or don't take) affects what happens to you. Everywhere and always, this is true.
Of course it does, but we should be focusing on how the action of rape (and then consequently how someone should have chose not to ♥♥♥♥ing rape someone) should be focused more then a victim not getting drunk or something.

Would you say that someone who walked the street on the sidewalk during the night because they needed to get home at fault for getting hit by a drunk driver? Should they have not walked home at night? Should they have stayed home?

Let's look at concrete actions that can be taken to avoid being raped. A woman can choose to:
  • Stay out of bad neighborhoods - ask a male friend to pick up your weed for you or travel in a group, take a longer route to the grocery store that doesn't require you to be in the hood.
  • Stay away from bad men - you can't always tell who is violent, but sometimes you can, though you'll never reach a conclusion if you don't attempt to gather data.
  • Don't get trashed to the point where you can't walk at a party full of strangers - know your limits.
  • Buy a can of mace or take martial arts, and maintain vigilance - be proactive about your personal safety, learn the ways that you can defend yourself against someone bigger and stronger than yourself.
This roughly translates to something similar.

Women: Fear every moment of your life that there will be a rapist waiting for you. Please reconsider what you are saying. This doesn't even touch on the fact that The majority of offenders are people the victims know.

The victim mentality is the most pervasive and most destructive mental attitude that I have ever witnessed, not to mention that it is completely out of touch with reality.
It's not so much a victim mentality as much as people are trying to be respectful of people who have gone through a trauma. Is a woman who was raped somehow not a victim? This is incredible.

Every woman has a right to live in a world where she doesn't have to fear being raped. Every woman also has a responsibility to do whatever she is able to avoid being raped.
Yet no mention on how every offender shouldn't rape somebody.