SwagPlay might get banned from the Uber tier

Started by KorpiklaaniVodka June 7th, 2014 10:44 AM
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KorpiklaaniVodka

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Posted September 26th, 2016
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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagger-clause.3508659/

"SwagPlay is a mindless, unskillful, and disrespectful way to battle in a tier that requires skill. It needs to be banned. It is making the most intense and fast paced metagame into a joke, and it is slowly beginning to ruin the competitive aspect of Ubers."

Thoughts on this?
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Nah

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I don't think I've ever heard of anything being banned from Ubers.....Smogon really hates SwagPlay, doesn't it?

I....don't find it terribly necessary to ban SwagPlay from Ubers. You hardly ever see it in Ubers. Something I could see getting banned from Ubers is full Baton Pass teams though. But who knows what'll happen with that.
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Keiran

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Maybe it's a bad example, but the team that guy linked to is extremely weak to Taunt. I think it would make more sense to ban Imposter+Swagger on the same team if it's that problematic.
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Zeffy

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The OU ladder deteriorated to a non-competitive standstill when SwagPlay was rampant (and even today, with the bs BP teams and the forceful triangle of BP teams > normal teams > BP counter). I've never played XY Ubers, but it seems that the same thing is happening to its ladder. I don't blame them.
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Swgger is absolutely cancer to face, and is in general a ♥♥♥ strategy. It's ridiculous how easy it is to abuse. The fact that a guy peaked the ladder with a SwagPlay team says a bit, especially after I fought the guy when he ran a real team and realized he was a rather mediocre player.

Its stupid.

Assuming Sweep has a few comments on this.

Nah

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I've never played XY Ubers, but it seems that the same thing is happening to its ladder. I don't blame them.
It's not really rampant in Ubers. I play plenty of Ubers, and I've only seen SwagPlay be used twice.
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Zeffy

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It's not really rampant in Ubers. I play plenty of Ubers, and I've only seen SwagPlay be used twice.
Uhm...

While it hasn't really reached top level play, it appears to be especially common on the ladder. This is a good example of your standard Swagger team.
Though maybe it's more common on the lower ladder, the wording of the statement above doesn't really specifically state whether it is in the upper or lower ladder.

Nah

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Uhm...



Though maybe it's more common on the lower ladder, the wording of the statement above doesn't really specifically state whether it is in the upper or lower ladder.
Then I've either been really lucky or Smogon and I have different ideas of what "prevalent" is. I'm not saying that SwagPlay is harmless to the meta. I just haven't seen it be used that much, and therefore see little reason to ban a very uncommon strategy (and one that partly relies on confusion of all things).

I just have a hard time understanding why Smogon so vehemently hates SwagPlay. I've never seen them hate something so much. I find that weather last gen, and entry hazards and full Baton Pass teams this gen are bigger issues. Not like it matters what I think.

But tbh, I don't really care if SwagPlay is banned from Ubers or not unless I suddenly start battling a whole bunch of SwagPlay teams and lose to them a lot. And if SwagPlay is banned, its not like the meta is negatively impacted.
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Then I've either been really lucky or Smogon and I have different ideas of what "prevalent" is. I'm not saying that SwagPlay is harmless to the meta. I just haven't seen it be used that much, and therefore see little reason to ban a very uncommon strategy (and one that partly relies on confusion of all things).
Smogon banned Ingrain Smeargle in ADV to hinder full BP chain, a strategy that was never ever seen.

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http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagger-clause.3508659/

"SwagPlay is a mindless, unskillful, and disrespectful way to battle in a tier that requires skill. It needs to be banned. It is making the most intense and fast paced metagame into a joke, and it is slowly beginning to ruin the competitive aspect of Ubers."

Thoughts on this?
I support this. SwagPlay isn't healthy for the metagame, so why keep it around? There is a precent for this: Moody, OHKO moves, evasion clause, and maybe a few others I don't remember. Pokemon is heavily influenced by luck, but SwagPlay really compromises the skill aspect of the game.

I don't think I've ever heard of anything being banned from Ubers.....Smogon really hates SwagPlay, doesn't it?

I....don't find it terribly necessary to ban SwagPlay from Ubers. You hardly ever see it in Ubers. Something I could see getting banned from Ubers is full Baton Pass teams though. But who knows what'll happen with that.
Pokemon don't get banned from Ubers, but it is still governed by things like OHKO clause. There is a precedent here, and your comment about full BP is another perfect example of something unhealthy that could get banned.

It's rather pathetic that SwagPlay got banned from the regular tiers as it is, but to consider banning it even from Ubers is such a low point for the metagame.
Oh gosh, I guess this argument is over now!

Is it just me or has swag play always been an awful unreliable strategy even in ou....lol... :/ Its never succeed in doing anything relevant against me. Even when not prepared for.
Anecdotal, and you do tend to run teams that naturally do well against it...

Regardless, its viability is only relevant to a certain degree. It's good *enough* and it's not like things like OHKO are overpowered--they just suck to have around and it's good that they're banned.

It's not really rampant in Ubers. I play plenty of Ubers, and I've only seen SwagPlay be used twice.
Usage isn't really relevant in these types of discussions. A lot of people used Electivire in fourth generation OU, after all. (And there's a precedent for this, too! Wobbuffet in fourth generation OU is the most notable example of something that got banned even though it was barely top forty in usage.)

Then I've either been really lucky or Smogon and I have different ideas of what "prevalent" is. I'm not saying that SwagPlay is harmless to the meta. I just haven't seen it be used that much, and therefore see little reason to ban a very uncommon strategy (and one that partly relies on confusion of all things).

I just have a hard time understanding why Smogon so vehemently hates SwagPlay. I've never seen them hate something so much. I find that weather last gen, and entry hazards and full Baton Pass teams this gen are bigger issues. Not like it matters what I think.

But tbh, I don't really care if SwagPlay is banned from Ubers or not unless I suddenly start battling a whole bunch of SwagPlay teams and lose to them a lot. And if SwagPlay is banned, its not like the meta is negatively impacted.
Well your last point is pretty crucial: why keep SwagPlay around? Swagger sucks for everyone. I don't see the downside here except contrarian principled arguments.

Smogon "hates" SwagPlay (as if Smogon is a monolithic entity) for the same reason that it's about to nerf bull BP, that OHKO moves are banned, and the same reason evasion clause used to exist. It's just a terrible thing to have around, and I don't really see the point of opposition except confusion over Smogon's alleged fixation on it, which is definitely a secondary concern, if at all.

Smogon banned Ingrain Smeargle in ADV to hinder full BP chain, a strategy that was never ever seen.
Another example of usage not mattering. Full BP is the worst lol.
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Swagger really isn't a reliable move in any tier because it can end up benefiting you or harming you in the end. Tbh, confusion-inducing moves really shouldn't be used with the current metagame because there are better, more viable options.
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PlatinumDude

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Swagger really isn't a reliable move in any tier because it can end up benefiting you or harming you in the end. Tbh, confusion-inducing moves really shouldn't be used with the current metagame because there are better, more viable options.
The reason why Swagger got banned in all formats is because it's luck-based. Also, Prankster users Liepard and Klefki have access to Swagger + Foul Play. If they get lucky, they can then use Foul Play to take advantage of the heavily increased Attack. They can even use Thunder Wave to cripple the opponent further, making the SwagPlay strategy easier to execute.

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The reason why Swagger got banned in all formats is because it's luck-based. Also, Prankster users Liepard and Klefki have access to Swagger + Foul Play. If they get lucky, they can then use Foul Play to take advantage of the heavily increased Attack. They can even use Thunder Wave to cripple the opponent further, making the SwagPlay strategy easier to execute.
You really think outside of the box with some of these strategies, Platinum. That's an impressive observation.
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From an Ubers perspective, Swagplay is excruciating to face and incredibly match-up reliant. Whereas Hyper Offensive teams have very little chance to beat the combination of Swagger, Thunder Wave, Substitute, and Foul Play, a properly constructed Stall team will hardly ever lose to such a team since these teams do not mind paralysis as much and take far less damage from Foul Play as a whole. Chansey in particular walls all Swagplay teams lacking Taunt. Since Swagplay is incredibly match-up based, in addition to being inherently luck-based, it is anti-competitive and favors Lady Luck as opposed to actual skill.

As for the notion that Ubers Pokemon are somehow better prepared to take on Swagplay teams than OU teams, this simply isn't true. Very few Pokemon seen in Ubers carry a resistance to Foul Play, barring Xerneas, Darkrai, and Arceus-Fairy (Dark and Fighting Arceus are very rare at the moment) and since almost all Ubers Pokemon carry a massive attack stat, Foul Play will severely damage most of them after a Swagger boost. If anything, Ubers teams are generally more vulnerable to such teams. I'm thrilled to see it gone from the tier. It's no major loss from a competitive standpoint, as you will never see a skilled player use Swagplay regardless :).

edit: yeah he did moxie, and he was demonized for it (including by his own teammates, me being one of them). he also lost :)