The Men's Rights Movement Page 2

Started by twocows June 15th, 2014 2:09 PM
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  • 107 replies

Oryx

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It's not fair to judge a movement on one person; I don't judge men's rights activism on the man who said child prostitutes should be prosecuted for "preying" on pedophiles. I don't judge men's rights activism on the comments from a mass murder based on woman-hating in 2009 - the comments about how the shooting of 12 women is a "tax" that they deserve for accepting men's drinks and dinners, how it is a literal crime when women refuse men sex, how 99% of women caused the mass shooting by being shallow, the comment where a man literally says "I applaud rape". Finding one person that's ridiculous and saying "this must be feminism, I can't stand behind this movement" dismisses men's rights activism just as much. In fact, it dismisses any movement and any group just as much, as there are extremists in any group.

It's sexist to find one woman that has views that you hate and make a sweeping statement about how men interact with women, blaming it on women, by the way.


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Kanzler

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Speaking of MRA's, here a feminist arguing after an MRA rally. This woman is literally the worst person ever and if she represents feminism, I want nothing to do with it. No really, her attitude really makes me want to vomit.



There's a reason men die sooner than women. They chose to so they don't have to take another minute of this.
ugh thats my university

i caught wind of them trying to prevent people from walking into a lecture hall because they disagreed with what the lecturer (a sociology professor who advocates for men's rights) had to say

ick. oh, and the student gov president was among them as well. i mean, you shouldn't be harassing people and preventing them from going where they want to go, can you? who has the right?

in any case that's campus feminism for you

gimmepie

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Actually the term "feminism" has been bent by the second and third waves who claim to want equality and claim to care about male rights but then in practice only harp on about the problems women face and tell men we are sexist the minute we point out our own problems or point out a reason they may be wrong. These hypocritical "feminists" are what has deteriorated what was once a great movement and bent the definition of the term.

Don't tell me they hold little influence and don't tell me they don't exist. A lot of extremely vocal and extremely well-known feminists are like this and so are pretty much all of the feminists I have personally met.


The biggest issue around male rights I see, is that there aren't enough people aware of the problems men can face and there is nobody who seems to advocate for men. I'm the first to say that we should stop movements like the MRM or feminism and start focusing on human rights as whole regardless of gender, but I also think a big part of that is ending this strange notion that men are ridiculously privileged or have little to no problems facing them.
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twocows

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I like that you pointed out some of the disadvantages men face, and the true meaning of feminism. Sadly I feel the word "feminism" has been bent by both those against it, and by the extreme wing of the movement. I think that men think that feminism is for females only as often time they don't hear that they'll also benefit from it, nor take the time to research it up. I think that as feminists we must do a better job at teaching more men how they'll benefit from gender equality. Once we do that there'll be no need for an MRA group (or a WRA) as Feminism already covers it (it just has to show it more).
Like I said in my response, everyone says that feminism will benefit men and solve men's problems, but I've yet to see any fighting for any of the issues that matter to me from a nontrivial number of moderate or not-so-moderate feminists. They're busy advocating for their own issues, it's their focus. We need men's advocates of some kind if only because nobody else is fighting for the issues men face.

As for the current state of men's advocacy, I think there's certainly a lot of room for improvement on all fronts. MRAs need to refocus on the core issues, clean up their image a bit if possible, and stop being so reactionary to other movements which are really pretty unrelated. A lot of MRAs spend too much effort pointing out all the problems with stuff that some of the more radical feminists are saying. I don't think that should be part of the movement. It's fine if they want to point out all of those problems, but I think it should be on an individual basis and not as a part of the men's rights movement. Male advocacy shouldn't be about pointing out the problems (valid or otherwise) with other movements that usually don't harm men, it should be about raising awareness of and solving the issues that face men. Now, if they're saying something openly violent or derogatory about men, that's another story, but so long as they stick to advocating for their own issues, I don't think that's something MRAs should be nitpicking about as a part of the movement.
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Esper

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Posted June 30th, 2018
I took a look at the link twocows gave in the first post even though I've only got a bad impression of the whole Men's Rights thing. Thought I should try to be as open-minded as I could. The points raised were these:
  • Vilification
  • Child Custody Discrimination
  • Legal Discrimination
  • Education Discrimination
  • False accusations
  • Prevalence of Male Genital Mutilation
  • Recognition of Male Victims

Okay, so let's look at them.

Vilification
The idea that men are vilified as the only group who commit rape, domestic violence, etc. It is true that anyone can be a victim or a perpetrator of violence. News media, politicians, and those types shouldn't ever say otherwise. However, most violence is done by men and I would not blame anyone for being wary around men they don't know because of that reason. I think one good solution would be for more depictions and examples in our media of men who denounce violence or discrimination against women and the associated justifications used against women.

Child Custody Discrimination
I think Oryx handled this one pretty well. Not gonna add anything right now.

Legal Discrimination
I'm all for equality under the law, just so long as the law is fair as well. If there is a big disparity I don't know what can be done about that except to create a more equal society in general so that people won't think of men as extra deserving of punishment and women as somehow less deserving.

Education Discrimination
The argument here seems to be that there has been a lot to help and encourage women to succeed in education and that not much of the same for men. The link specifically uses the phrase "no longer necessary" which leads me to believe that the person who wrote that (and by extension the people who agree with it) think that we have somehow achieved equality in education. I have to disagree with this premise, though I don't want to cite a bunch of examples right now. I'll just say that there are plenty of studies and examples that show, for instance, that girls don't get called on in class as often as boys. So, yes, there aren't men-specific programs to boost education, but there are everybody-specific programs. The fact that women and girls often fall behind is why there are special extra things to help them.

False Accusations
I don't believe there is an epidemic of false accusations. I think that's just a matter of some people cherry picking what news they watch or read. And the news is also to blame in a lot for putting cases into the public view for trial-by-public which the article seems not to like. So this seems like it would be win-win if legal proceedings weren't put into the news like they are.

Prevalence of Male Genital Mutilation
Equating circumcision with genital mutilation is spurious. Even if you feel that circumcision is bad it's not on the same level of bad as female genital mutilation. Given the hype it has, you can probably just talk to a doctor if you don't want your baby boy circumcised and your wishes will be followed.

Recognition of Male Victims
Here I think I agree completely. Men should be recognized as victims of assault, rape, etc. when they are so that they can have the same legal protections and receive whatever medical/psychological/etc. care they need.

So overall I feel like there are some things I can agree on, but I can't shake this feeling that a lot of people who agree with these ideas feel as if we are on an equal playing field. It seems like they're upset that there is not a lot of help being given to men while it's being given to women, as though everything else were equal. That just doesn't jive with me.
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Prevalence of Male Genital Mutilation[/B]
Equating circumcision with genital mutilation is spurious. Even if you feel that circumcision is bad it's not on the same level of bad as female genital mutilation. Given the hype it has, you can probably just talk to a doctor if you don't want your baby boy circumcised and your wishes will be followed.
As someone who is circumcised, I can guarantee you that there are some very long lasting effects to this unnecessary procedure (except in rare medically necessary instances). I have voiced to my birth mother my displeasure over her decision to have that done to me. None of my brothers are circumcised. Just me. It is a part of me that was ripped away (okay, cut) that I can never get back. And what made me so angry was that I had no chance to be a part of that decision. It was made for me. I'm just thankful that I was too young and don't remember the pain that I must have had to endure while the wound healed. Calling male circumcision genital mutilation is an accurate description. Because that is exactly what it is.
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As someone who is circumcised, I can guarantee you that there are some very long lasting effects to this unnecessary procedure (except in rare medically necessary instances). I have voiced to my birth mother my displeasure over her decision to have that done to me. None of my brothers are circumcised. Just me. It is a part of me that was ripped away (okay, cut) that I can never get back. And what made me so angry was that I had no chance to be a part of that decision. It was made for me. I'm just thankful that I was too young and don't remember the pain that I must have had to endure while the wound healed. Calling male circumcision genital mutilation is an accurate description. Because that is exactly what it is.
I don't think many older males will want to be circumcised either seeing how it's even more painful as you age than when you're young. It does have some health benefits though. I wouldn't choose that for any sons I may have in the future though.
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If someone wants to focus on and raise awareness for the issues that men face then fine, as long as they realise that men are still in a position of privilege in society and that many of these issues are tied to negative gender roles that affect women too, and that the issues women face are quite frankly more frequent and severe.

Men’s Rights as a movement has always been something that I can’t take seriously though, because for the most part it seems to be born out of a knee jerk reaction to those darn feminists rather than an actual desire for change. Too many MRAs are grossly misogynistic man babies who can’t handle the idea that they might be in a privileged position in society and none of their actions really have anything to do with promoting awareness.

If MRAs actually cared about making a difference in men's lives and not "fighting back" against feminism then I might take them seriously, but seeing them in action actually disgusts me. How can anybody support a movement that sends death threats to the creator of a pro-women hashtag, spams online sexual assault forms and has members who relate to and actually support people like Elliot Rodgers? It's gone past being a difference of opinion. If MRAs were actually concerned with promoting awareness about stuff like prostate cancer and negative gender roles and what have you instead of targeting feminism then I might actually be able to support them, but when the vast majority of them are whiny (and sometimes violent) man children the movement just becomes a complete farce and I will never support it.
Your description of the MRM can be to an extent accounted for the Feminist movement also. We have reached a stage where misandry is almost a subconsciously accepted idea in our society. The whole Feminist movement is widely misunderstood. For one, it stands for equality of rights and helping mistreated women. But then secondly, it is the wrong thing to do. What you mentioned about MRM can be reflected onto Feminism, but that would actually be condemned in society because man are the privileged people.

Also, to say that women are worse off is wrong. They do have huge issues that we need to deal with, but men have their own share of issues which should not be looked down upon. Unfortunately a portion of the western society chooses to ignore that.

This is a pretty good start on what male issues are:
[unfortunately, I cannot post links as I have not made 15 posts yet. Sigh... take a look at the /r/mensrights subreddit if anyone is interested]
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Trev

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While I am all for the equal treatment of men, I prefer removing the stereotypes placed against them as opposed to this whole advocate thing (although I do agree with some of these points).

Since the topic seems to lean towards circumcision atm, I just wanna point out that I read two different resources (a modern one aimed towards infants and this older one - specifically #7) as well as an article listing reasons why you shouldn't (which seems to contradict the info given in the other articles in some instances) and I just wanna say that it doesn't seem that bad to me. It seems like there's a lot of health benefits and the only reason people petition against it is because it's painful and your baby can't give consent to it. That's just my view on it. I should probably do some more research on it but eh.

Kanzler

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Health benefits seem kinda iffy. The risk of urinal tract infections is only serious enough for a small minority of people to get circumcision for medical reasons, and that's not really a pediatric problem. I'd say it's more so out of tradition.
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I believe this is more of a double standard issue.

Men aren't usually seen as victims of sexual abuse, rape, psychological and psychical abuse if inflicted by a woman. More often than not, the man become the laughing stalk of the masses no matter what the gender if people find out that the man has been abused or raped in anyway. People don't take it seriously and it's harder for courts to convict women who rape men because the jury just won't believe it.

In the general populace, people will think that the man is too much of a "sissy" and that he deserves it or that he is overreacting. Well sadly a man that is subjected to rape and abuse by women isn't overreacting and isn't a "sissy."

It's just a double standard that exists within society due to gender roles and identity. Of course I feel like it should be changed and that people shouldn't think this way. Rape, is rape and abuse is abuse no matter who inflicts it. That's my two cents.

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this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's
Ah. But sadly, there is need for MRAs. Though, I'd say MGTOW are making much more of a dent in things.
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maccrash

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i'm gonna be totally blunt here i don't even care
straight white men have all their rights??
why don't we talk about something that actually matters like women's rights or gay rights or poc rights because that's where the issues come up. lots of men think they're so unprivileged in this world, but after you compare men's rights to everyone else's, it will make you want to stop rambling pointlessly about how "mistreated" men are.
this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's
this is the Men's Rights Movement thread

not the Straight White Men's Rights Movement thread
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twocows

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i'm gonna be totally blunt here i don't even care
straight white men have all their rights??
why don't we talk about something that actually matters like women's rights or gay rights or poc rights because that's where the issues come up. lots of men think they're so unprivileged in this world, but after you compare men's rights to everyone else's, it will make you want to stop rambling pointlessly about how "mistreated" men are.
this thread is honestly just silly and there's literally no need for mra's
So suffering doesn't matter because other suffering is worse? If one of your family members committed suicide, would it be irrelevant because there's currently genocide happening in parts of Africa?

What you are committing is a logical fallacy known as the fallacy of relative privation. I've already gone into significant depth as to what men's problems are and why they are important in the course of the thread, so I'm not going to keep repeating myself. Suffice it to say that some of the issues that face men have caused many of them to fall to despair, and yes, even suicide.

Also, it's generally considered poor form to like your own posts.

Edit: and yes, like mac said, this is a men's issues thread, not a straight white men's issues thread. Race and sexual orientation have nothing to do with this discussion.
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gimmepie

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@Chilton - People like you are part of the problem quite frankly. You disregard men's issues and say that they are less important but I think what you mean is "less publicized".

I stand by my belief that we need to stop looking at the individual genders and start focusing on human rights as a whole (I swear to God if someone says feminism does this I'll rage, I've already explained why that's not the case). The thing here though, is that we will never be able to do that whilst this belief that men's issues are insignificant is perpetuated by the lack of publicity. Women's issues are no more important than those facing men, they just get more publicity because of the large number of vocal and/or extremist advocates. As twocows keeps saying - the suffering of one group does not diminish the importance of the suffering of another.

What you were doing in your post is disregarding some pretty significant flaws in our society because they do not affect you which is precisely why advocate groups like the MRM exist.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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Just throwing my two cents out there, but the reason why I don't really like MRA's is because many times there's a lot of misogynistic undertones to it. I do feel that men have a lot of issues and that sexism is definitely not a gendered issue and both sexes get a ton of ♥♥♥♥ they have to put up with due to gender roles, but I just feel like MRA's miss the point of "gender equality". The same could be said for a lot of 3rd wave Feminists too, really.

Personally, how I feel is that, gender roles in society are a dated practice that hurts everyone, which leads to sexism, and the closer we move to it's abolition on both sides is the best route.

Corvus of the Black Night

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i guess since everyone is bashing my point, i'll explain further on why mra is complete crap.
Your point was that white men don't ever face trouble in their life. Please take your privilege crap elsewhere; life is much more three dimensional than what you're illustrating. This is intended as an actual serious debate and you're pretty much resorting to ♥♥♥♥ flinging. Maybe white men in this topic aren't appreciative of your generalizing, sexist ways.

i'll be using some quotes from another website for my reasoning. this will be really detailed on some big issues about mra's.
Instead of quoting others (and essentially plagiarizing), why not use sources to back your claims?...

can you imagine what it would be like for a woman who has been abused to tell her abuser that she's pregnant and wants to abort? can you imagine what the consequences would be for her? there are a few things that could happen, but the most likely scenarios include her being forced to endure the pregnancy and keep the child against her will, thereby tying herself to her abuser in one way or another for the remainder of her life (which might not be for very long, statistically speaking), or her attempting to abort the fetus herself, which can result in serious injury (including sepsis, a perforated uterus or intestines, etc.) and even death.
Don't you think that this is more of an issue with reproductive rights as opposed to MRAs? I'm not really sure how this is even relevant to the issue. Women having issues with their rights =/= MRAs overstepping people. Maybe I'm not as knowledgeable on the subject as you are but I don't think MRAs even really tackle the issue of reproductive rights.

i've explained this before, but if rape had anything to do with any of that, women who dress modestly, don't drink, only go out during the day, only go out in groups, never go out at all, would never be raped. and yet, with a statistic of 1 in 6 women being raped in her lifetime, this happens all the time. i don't think i have to explain why this mra viewpoint is dangerous to women, but just to make a point, the reason this is dangerous is not only because of the obvious, which is that it perpetuates rape culture, ♥♥♥♥-shames and blames the victim, and prevents rape victims from coming forward and pressing charges, but also because they fully believe that because of a few false accusations, all accusations of rape must automatically be assumed to be false. this is clearly more than problematic for women who are raped.
There's actually quite a bit wrong with this...

First off, most sources agree that individuals who are raped (including men) know their attacker.

Second, the 1 in 4 statistic is likely dubious (the 1 in 6 statistic actually refers to male victims ironically enough). I've written on this one in the past, so I'll quote myself:

Then again, the 1 in 4 statistic is pretty dubious to begin with. Assuming a population of 100,000,000 adult women in the United States, this assumes that 25 million of them will be raped in their life time. In 2008, this value was around 164,000 women. This would require that women live to be over 600 years old for this population to reach this 1 in 4 value. Even if unreported rapes accounted for half of the total rape population, this would only bring this number down to 300. The statistic is likely warped. [...] Perhaps the most damning things about these “statistics” is that is’s practically impossible to track exactly where these people got their information.
On "rape culture", it's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. First off, preventative messages such as staying safe and carrying a knife cause as many rapes as telling people to look both ways when crossing the road causes pedestrian car accidents. Second, we're told from the ground up that rape isn't okay, at least in the west in the standard public. RAINN agrees. Also, asking people preventative questions isn't necessarily victim blaming - not to mention that most people, when someone has a close loved one who endures rape, do NOT even go there with their friend/family/whatever. The 97% walk free statistic is also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

"all accusations of rape must automatically be assumed to be false."
This is probably the most ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ statement I've ever seen on this subject, now THAT is something I'd like to see a ♥♥♥♥ing source on.

"[/B]this is clearly more than problematic for women who are raped."

I'll quote my good o'l post again.

Males still count for a sizable number of reported rapes, making their numbers significant. In the same document it is reported that around 39,000 males were raped in 2008. This is still a significant portion of rapes - at least 5% - again, this does not include unreported rapes, and actions that legally cannot be classified as rape. For about every 4 and a third of women who report a rape, men report one. This is a significant number of people reporting rape.

According to this document, almost 20% of rapes involving a single perpetrator are caused by women. While a minority, it’s important to consider that
  • Due to issues listed above, a female rapist is difficult to report, and may go unreported due to social stigmas.
  • 20% of a population is still incredibly significant. It implies 1 in 5 rapes were perpetrated by a woman.

[...]

Not only this, but men also face issues that women are privileged into not facing. For example, men are criticized and sometimes even murdered for wearing female clothes. Men are often expected to hide their emotions, which can lead to severe mental disorders. Men are expected to enjoy sex, which, as pointed out above, restricts their ability to report and prosecute rape. Over 75% of homicide victims are male.
not only this, but some mra's actually question the criminal status of marital rape, and when having sex outside of marriage, they have suggested the signing of a "consensual sex contract" by partners before sexual intercourse in order to protect men from accusations of rape.[...] according to mra's, women who get married to men cannot possibly be raped because men are entitled to sex with their wives, even if it's forced, and when having sex outside of marriage, instead of obtaining enthusiastic, clear consent from their partners and only performing the sexual acts that said partner has consented to, they place a ridiculous burden on their partners in the form of this ridiculous contract, which doesn't actually prevent the man from raping his sex partner; it only prevents him from being accused.
Then the individuals who claim these things should be held accountable, not 50% of the population.

to the mra's reading this right now, i hope your eyes have been opened a bit, and i hope you realize that there is no supposed war on men.
Actually, as mentioned previously, men have their own issues that stem from gender stereotypes and gender roles. Men, for example, are considered "weak" if they display emotion or sadness, and are often reared to be more violent on the premise that men are "fighters", not to mention the four points I brought up above. Men are expected to fulfill false expectations, just like women. While I may not agree with the MRAs themselves, marginalizing the issues that men face for the sake of your argument simply displays your ignorance and lack of interest in true equality.

there is, however, an increasing demand that you men take responsibility for your words, actions, behaviors, etc., particularly those that perpetuate misogyny, rape culture and the patriarchy.
good jesus you read like you came right off of the sjw side of tumblr
This statement is essentially buzzword fluff. Most men and women agree that when you put a woman down, that that's a pretty lowly offence. It's not necessary and is often uncalled for. This is not "forcing men to take responsibility for their actions". This is common decency, which most men (including the men on this forum) practice every day.

By the way, might as well quote myself again to tackle the whole "male privilege" thing:

Privilege is the basic concept that some people have elevated options due to who they are in society. It should be pointed out that people in power will typically be the most privileged in society, and those who are similar to those individuals will also have elevated privilege. At least in societies that the modern world has evolved from. This can also be applied to other cultures - Japan for instance is extremely xenophobic and white people have considerably less privilege there than the Japanese, despite being portrayed in Western media as privileged (and yes, I did live there and I did experience it first hand).

[...]

Ultimately, women are one of the very few “minorities” (calling women that honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth…) that has almost exactly the same privileges as the “most privileged” type in that group, i.e. men. Most social issues that women face are those that are invoked by traditional child rearing practices. There are almost no barriers for women for obtaining traditionally male walks of life, outside of the fact that women are often reared to pursue “feminine” lifestyles. This is one of the few things that I do believe can be changed to promote female equality. The gap between male and female privilege is actually pretty small.

[...]

Privilege is pretty dubious in a discussion about gendered issues because the “privilege difference” is pretty small. Privilege is not measurable, cannot be put into a statistic, and cannot be absolutely interpreted. It also is an extremely complicated concept that can be modified by many factors - a wealthy white male who is mainly healthy can be born blind, after all, which practically counteracts every other possible “privilege” he could possibly have (one of my friends is practically this example). For something that you literally have to take into account every possible variation for, it makes no sense to justify your argument of generalizing all men as potential rapists through “male privilege”.
there is a VERY big difference between a "war on men" and asking men to take responsibility for their actions
That's right. That's why you shouldn't continue to marginalize the issues that others face simply because you believe one side faces more bias than others.

and if there is a conflation of the two in your mind, if you equate the cessation of the continued subjugation of women with a "war on men," you have serious problems.
To be honest, I think you're the one with serious problems, based on your incredible oversimplification of the issues at hand.

if you want to read my original post, you may do so here

EDIT:

you're literally missing my entire point that men's rights movement just completely destroys how women are trying to move forward in this world. that's all. i'm done. goodbye.
Your inability to uphold your argument does not mean that anyone is missing the point. If anything, your inability to read shows that you're the one missing the point. Your juvenile, sexist approach to the issue will not be missed.

Kanzler

naughty biscotti

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Toronto
Seen April 22nd, 2022
Posted March 11th, 2022
5,957 posts
14.8 Years
you're literally missing my entire point that men's rights movement just completely destroys how women are trying to move forward in this world. the reason i'm trying to over emphasize things is because people just really need to understand that most mra's are just misogynistic. that's all. i'm done. goodbye.
one word: how?

but you're gone so whatever

and dang i think i'm an enfp too xD but male. apparently we're rare.

Oryx

CoquettishCat

Age 30
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Posted December 27th, 2014
13,184 posts
12.2 Years
As far as the "MRA and feminism don't step on each other", I would like to point out that Live had to come in here and remind everyone that this thread wasn't about feminism, because it became an argument about feminism. It took less than 10 posts for someone to say they're an MRA because feminism is hypocritical. The movement was then defined as standing up to extreme feminism. Regardless of how the movement is actually defined by its leaders, it has become a movement set in opposition to feminism and therefore feminist issues are deeply relevant.


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Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon

Age 30
Non-binary
With the Birds
Seen January 9th, 2015
Posted January 9th, 2015
3,416 posts
14.3 Years
The MRA movement really should be judged on its own merits instead of the failings of other movements. Again, the MRA movement fails in my opinion because it is often plagued by many prejudices that are loud, vocal and not controlled in the movement, which talk over more rational voices. I don't call myself a Men's Rights Activist because I believe in the rights of all sexes and genders.