The Men's Rights Movement Page 4

Started by twocows June 15th, 2014 2:09 PM
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Neil Peart

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I agree to an extent, but you're painting all men with the same brush. As one yourself, I think you could obviously say you're not as unjust as some men.
How am I saying "all men have done horrible things"? That was nowhere in my post.

I'm talking about historically - manifest destiny, slavery, denying women rights, at the helm of corporations that have destroyed ecosystems and poisoned our air, on and on.

For all of that, the fact that men think they're being treated unfairly as a whole is a laugh, but I also think feminism is a laugh. It had meaning historically, but today it's pretty useless.
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.

Neil Peart

Learn to swim

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Posted March 7th, 2021
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Then I misinterpreted your post. As I said, I agree to an extent. However, I don't think feminism is "a laugh" until you get the ones who preach all men are rape apologists, but that's for another thread.
I dunno, I just don't see the need for the "feminist" label when the idea is equality.
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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If I were to choose a word to describe my beliefs in regards to equality, I'd choose egalitarianism. I think the ideas of both feminism and the MRA - ESPECIALLY the MRA - are absurd. Equality for all, and it's as simple as that.

I will say this, though - the fact that men, the ones behind so many of the awful, perverted, unjust things in this world think they need their own rights movement, is laughable.
I forgot that I was responsible for all the awful, perverted, unjust things in the world and thus am not able to have problems or talk about them. You'll have to excuse me, sometimes I get so caught up in sexually harassing people and kicking puppies and such that I forget that all men are evil and thus we can't have a discussion about our problems.

Do you think Germans can't talk about their problems either because a few of them did something really nasty in the late 30s, early 40s?? The idea behind what you're saying is identical.
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Neil Peart

Learn to swim

Age 32
Male
Helsinki, Finland
Seen April 10th, 2021
Posted March 7th, 2021
753 posts
13.1 Years
I forgot that I was responsible for all the awful, perverted, unjust things in the world and thus am not able to have problems or talk about them. You'll have to excuse me, sometimes I get so caught up in sexually harassing people and kicking puppies and such that I forget that all men are evil and thus we can't have a discussion about our problems.

Do you think Germans can't talk about their problems either because a few of them did something really nasty in the late 30s, early 40s?? The idea behind what you're saying is identical.
Is Wednesday "Take Out of Context and Put Words in Others' Mouths" day or something? Holy ♥♥♥♥.

I never ♥♥♥♥ing said you were responsible. I said that men were mainly responsible historically for denying all sorts of groups rights. That's a fact. I'm also saying men don't have enough legitimate rights issues to justify congregating together and demanding them. It's nothing more than a kneejerk reaction to feminist groups.

Referencing Nazis... what's new in Internet debate and discourse?
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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Is Wednesday "Take Out of Context and Put Words in Others' Mouths" day or something? Holy ♥♥♥♥.

I never ♥♥♥♥ing said you were responsible. I said that men were mainly responsible historically for denying all sorts of groups rights. That's a fact.
It's also entirely irrelevant, unless you're trying to make the point that I just refuted.

I'm also saying men don't have enough legitimate rights issues to justify congregating together and demanding them.
Bull. I've listed and re-listed and re-re-listed the sorts of problems that are important, problems that drive men to depression and suicide and wreck families and all sorts of nasty crap. How many times do I have to keep repeating myself before the point gets across: there are legitimate issues we face and brushing them off like they're nothing is extremely insensitive.

Yes, I am upset, because this stuff is important to me. I've seen it tear apart families and destroy peoples' lives. This isn't some red-versus-blue crap, it's not "my team or your team," it's a matter of real issues affecting real people and causing real harm.

It's nothing more than a kneejerk reaction to feminist groups.
There are people who sit around all day pointing out x and y and z problems with feminism and do nothing but that and call themselves MRAs. That's not every person in the movement, and it's not what I'm doing. I do talk about feminism and what I think about it in the feminism thread but I tried my best to make a thread here that focused on the issues instead of that stuff you mentioned.

Referencing Nazis... what's new in Internet debate and discourse?
It was an analogous situation, and I didn't compare you to a Nazi or compare your viewpoint to a Nazi viewpoint or even mention Nazis. The fact that people tend to reference this period of history a lot in discussion does not have any bearing on the accuracy of my analogy.
VNs are superior to anime, don't @ me

Neil Peart

Learn to swim

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Male
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Seen April 10th, 2021
Posted March 7th, 2021
753 posts
13.1 Years

Bull. I've listed and re-listed and re-re-listed the sorts of problems that are important, problems that drive men to depression and suicide and wreck families and all sorts of nasty crap. How many times do I have to keep repeating myself before the point gets across: there are legitimate issues we face and brushing them off like they're nothing is extremely insensitive.
I just don't think this should have its own "movement." No one is really taking it seriously, just like less and less people are taking feminism seriously these days. All of those issues listed in the article you posted are sad, but even as a man I have to say they're pretty far back in the queue, especially when you put them up against the issues women face that no one seems to give a ♥♥♥♥ about.
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.

Hackenfall Backslash

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I forgot that I was responsible for all the awful, perverted, unjust things in the world and thus am not able to have problems or talk about them. You'll have to excuse me, sometimes I get so caught up in sexually harassing people and kicking puppies and such that I forget that all men are evil and thus we can't have a discussion about our problems.

Do you think Germans can't talk about their problems either because a few of them did something really nasty in the late 30s, early 40s?? The idea behind what you're saying is identical.
Shame. I originally thought him (the guy you're replying to) to be sharp in another thread. Oh well! You're my new favourite person ever (this week). Let's hang sometime. I have season passes to Busch Gardens. :D

Silais

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9.8 Years
I'm as bad as a feminist? That's quite hilarious. If you'd like to deny historical fact, then be my guest. It does not change the fact that men have had rights women did not have (such as the ability to own property, hold office, or buy land, as I stated before), nor does it change the fact that men too have had their fair share of suffering. It seems you've completely missed that part of my argument. Did you not read the section where I outlined how war, the strain of being the sole provider, or the lack of emotional freedom have made men's lives difficult? Would you like some more examples?

If you want to nitpick words, then so be it. No, I do not agree with much of the modern feminist movement. You also seemed to miss the part of my response where I outlined that modern feminism's outcry on a lack of female characters in TV shows or video games annoys me to no end. There are plenty of things that bother me about feminism and about the men's rights movement. Do I really need to display them all here?

Again, here comes the righteous indignation we are so focused on in modern times. I did not mention one side enough in a two-sided argument, therefore my argument is invalid. How dare I give more examples on men than on women? Perhaps because this thread is focused on men, and was warned to do so. As I said before, this thread has degenerated quite quickly. There's very little argument and debate here and more finger-pointing and name-calling. If you would like to have a logical, respectful discussion, please let me know.

In response to some of the other people who have replied, I still find it difficult to understand why we choose to tackle the issue of human rights as separate groups of individuals. Instead of us all coming together to fight against injustice, we split into groups that focus mainly on elevating the rights of that group, falsely believing that by doing so everyone's rights will somehow be elevated in the process. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but to me, I'd be much more likely to fight for a cause that was intent on working with all human beings, not specific divisions of human beings.

That isn't to say that specific groups are oppressed. By no means am I saying that. But if we try to make one group more influential than another, we aren't giving them equal rights. We are giving them more rights. If we allow women to overly influence elections, or men to overly influence feminine healthcare simply because they whined and complained the loudest about their lack of rights, there is no equality.
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In response to some of the other people who have replied, I still find it difficult to understand why we choose to tackle the issue of human rights as separate groups of individuals. Instead of us all coming together to fight against injustice, we split into groups that focus mainly on elevating the rights of that group, falsely believing that by doing so everyone's rights will somehow be elevated in the process. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but to me, I'd be much more likely to fight for a cause that was intent on working with all human beings, not specific divisions of human beings.
Because fighting for "equality" brushes aside the issues faced by queer people/poc/women, ignores the differences between these issues and lumps them all into one happy-go-lucky equality movement that overly simplifies oppression (and inevitably ends up as very white-washed and cis/heteronormative). Oppression isn't just someone getting their feelings hurt on the playground and we're not going to make it go away by preaching some "be nice to people" bs. We need to recognise the problems lgbt+/poc/women face if we're going to destroy the sexism, racism, homophobia and transphobia in society and some blanket equality movement isn't going to cut it.


That stance does put me vehemently against LGBT advocates, feminists etc. who only care about their own interests.
Are you against activists who only care about their own interests or activists, who all only care about their own interests (I mean I know the answer, but)? Because while excluding poc and trans people is a big problem in mainstream activism, fighting for your rights does not make you self-centered. Like wow... an lgbt+ person who wants to campaign against homophobia... what an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥...

Alexander Nicholi

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Are you against activists who only care about their own interests or activists, who all only care about their own interests (I mean I know the answer, but)? Because while excluding poc and trans people is a big problem in mainstream activism, fighting for your rights does not make you self-centered. Like wow... an lgbt+ person who wants to campaign against homophobia... what an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥...
I think you're misconstruing things. (I think) what he's saying (and also what I outlined earlier) is that fighting for equality using the disadvantaged (aka the oppressed) as a vector is fallacious. While it may seem to be the right thing to do at a glance, it's better to advocate for both the oppressors and the oppressed – in reality that is true equality. Think about it with an analogy: If you have an unbalanced table, wouldn't stabilizing both sides be more logical than simply pushing up on the side that's down?
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I think you're misconstruing things. (I think) what he's saying (and also what I outlined earlier) is that fighting for equality using the disadvantaged (aka the oppressed) as a vector is fallacious. While it may seem to be the right thing to do at a glance, it's better to advocate for both the oppressors and the oppressed – in reality that is true equality. Think about it with an analogy: If you have an unbalanced table, wouldn't stabilizing both sides be more logical than simply pushing up on the side that's down?
No I'm pretty sure I care bout the lgbt people getting thrown out of their homes and beaten up in the streets that I do about straight white people getting said when the spotlight isn't shining on them. I could maybe see your point if we didn't live in such an unbalanced world, but right now, "advocating for oppressors" is the last thing on my mind.


Yeah so this is going majorly off-topic so I'm gonna make a thread about whatever this is.

e: meet me in the ♥♥♥♥ing pit

Alexander Nicholi

work hard, play hard

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No I'm pretty sure I care bout the lgbt people getting thrown out of their homes and beaten up in the streets that I do about straight white people getting said when the spotlight isn't shining on them. I could maybe see your point if we didn't live in such an unbalanced world, but right now, "advocating for oppressors" is the last thing on my mind.
Maybe you don't understand that the problem we're supposed to be fighting is the mere existence of oppression (ergo the "oppressors" and the "oppressed"). Choosing one party over the other leads to more oppression, does it not?

Alexander Nicholi

work hard, play hard

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No.
A one-word post bypassing the character limit doesn't say much. Do you care to elaborate?

Keiran

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This is why MRAs and "egalitarians" aren't taken seriously - they can't stop talking about how evil Feminism is even when they're told not to. And that's literally all that's come from MRA type groups. Why? Misogyny most likely.

:)

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I've held them down beneath the crushing tide
Till they have learned that no one masters me

Belldandy

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Yes. Being apart of an outdated and dangerously hateful movement is hilarious.
I think you're misunderstanding what feminism actually stands for. From the dictionary:

fem·i·nism [fem-uh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women
I think you're confusing the extremists with the actual goals of the movement. The women who completely erase the "equal to those of men" and replace it with "superior to those of men" are the problem in feminism.

However, I could say the same for MRA members who react like this to women getting killed because they aren't putting out. When Elliot Rodger was a huge thing back in early June, late May, there were some very disgusting tweets from MRA members on Twitter (and copied to Facebook) that basically stated that women were at fault for his violence because they wouldn't be sexually intimate with them. They were also at fault for choosing interracial relationships that pissed him off and felt devalued the white man's superior sexual priveleges in regards to mate-finding. These self-proclaimed MRA advocates were not supporting the massacre; however, they were blaming the women who wouldn't sleep with him, many who didn't even know his intentions or who he was. He felt sexually entitled because he was rich, and these MRA advocates were completely in agreeance with this mindset.

But you wouldn't go around saying all MRA individuals are misogynistic or like these self-proclaimed MRA members on Twitter. They aren't. There are people like my father who would've just liked to have the same maternity benefits, given the absence of a mother. There are men who would just like to be told that yes, they can be raped; it's not just a crime against women (regardless if it happens way more often to women), and that they shouldn't be ashamed to bring the matter to the police. Violence against men is less severe typically than that against women, but it does exist, and society is biased thinking that hitting a woman is never OK, but hitting a man is shrugworthy. Although the MRA has less relevance due to less historical oppression, it is still relevant in these cases, both of which I have experienced myself through my father's childrearing and the gunpoint rape of an old male friend of mine.

I watched a video actually of this bias. A woman was verbally assaulting a man in public and even started hitting him, etc. and everyone in the square did nothing. They retested with the man verbally assaulting the woman, though, and it didn't even escalate to physical assault before people got involved and told the guy to back off. It's pretty backwards. Hitting anyone of any gender, race, orientation, etc. is never OK; I thought they taught this in kindergarten?

Anyway, it's not the movements that are poison, but the extremists that exist in feminism and the MRA. If you hate anything, don't hate the movements, but the individuals who you see, hear, or read doing things that are actually against what the movement is about.

I still think overall, though, that merging the groups into just a humanitarian effort for equal rights will obliterate part of the issue, as we can all focus on what affects others and what is unfair. Humans are far too self-centered / selfish / egotistical for that. Always "me, me, me" and it's sad.

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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Posted April 30th, 2021
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14.2 Years
I just don't think this should have its own "movement." No one is really taking it seriously, just like less and less people are taking feminism seriously these days. All of those issues listed in the article you posted are sad, but even as a man I have to say they're pretty far back in the queue, especially when you put them up against the issues women face that no one seems to give a ♥♥♥♥ about.
I just don't think they're things that should be ignored purely because there may be bigger problems. We are more than capable of dealing with multiple problems at the same time, especially if it's something as simple as deciding to act fairly in an everyday encounter. And sometimes it is that simple, or at least it's a start.

The fact that few people take men's issues seriously doesn't mean they're not issue or not worth advocating for; in fact, I think it's rather the opposite. The fact that people brush off men's issues like they're nothing or not even slightly important (or deny they exist outright) is all the more reason to try to talk about them.

This is why MRAs and "egalitarians" aren't taken seriously - they can't stop talking about how evil Feminism is even when they're told not to.
I don't think I've mentioned it at all unprompted, and several times I've tried to steer the discussion away from it.

And that's literally all that's come from MRA type groups.
I have brought up several issues I think are important for men and, as I've said, I haven't been talking about feminism in this thread at all, at least not at length and without prompt.

Why? Misogyny most likely.

If you're talking about the movement in general, there are unfortunately some people in it who are. However, I don't think I've acted that way at all and I don't think I've seen anyone else in this thread acting that way (granted, I haven't read every single post).
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twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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No I'm pretty sure I care bout the lgbt people getting thrown out of their homes and beaten up in the streets that I do about straight white people getting said when the spotlight isn't shining on them.
1. Caring about LGBT problems and caring about men's issues are not mutually exclusive.
2. This thread is about men's rights, not straight rights or white rights. Men's rights includes the rights of gay men and men of any color or skin tone.
3. If we are trying to call attention to our issues, it's because we feel they're important.

I could maybe see your point if we didn't live in such an unbalanced world, but right now, "advocating for oppressors" is the last thing on my mind.
Again, I don't think I've oppressed anyone today. Maybe yesterday, but to be fair, yesterday was Tuesday and Tuesday is just an oppressive kind of day.
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1. Caring about LGBT problems and caring about men's issues are not mutually exclusive.
2. This thread is about men's rights, not straight rights or white rights. Men's rights includes the rights of gay men and men of any color or skin tone.
3. If we are trying to call attention to our issues, it's because we feel they're important.
I think you missed that this post was a tangent to the original discussion to do with a couple of people's opinions, and based on your post in my thread we seem to agree, so.


Again, I don't think I've oppressed anyone today. Maybe yesterday, but to be fair, yesterday was Tuesday and Tuesday is just an oppressive kind of day.
You're taking things too literally. "Men are oppressors" doesn't mean that every single man out there is a sexist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, it means that men have a history of oppressing women and holding power, the same way that white people and straight people do.

twocows

The not-so-black cat of ill omen

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I think you missed that this post was a tangent to the original discussion to do with a couple of people's opinions, and based on your post in my thread we seem to agree, so.
Oh, I didn't catch that. Sorry. I'm not aware of any de jure problems faced by straight people and I'm only aware of one (debatable) de jure problem faced specifically by whites (at least in the US), and I think I already talked about how I feel about affirmative action in a thread about it a few months back.

You're taking things too literally. "Men are oppressors" doesn't mean that every single man out there is a sexist ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, it means that men have a history of oppressing women and holding power, the same way that white people and straight people do.
Yes, but we're talking about rights that affect individual people who have nothing to do with any of that. That's what I'm saying. The fact that there exist a few people within any grouping based on those factors who did some nasty stuff doesn't mean we should just ignore any problems faced by people covered under that description. You're using a condemnation that really only applies to a few (in relative terms) people currently alive to say that any problems faced by people as a result of falling under that description are "oppressors' problems" and thus not really important, or at least that's how I understood what you said in the previously quoted post.
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Neil Peart

Learn to swim

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Seen April 10th, 2021
Posted March 7th, 2021
753 posts
13.1 Years
The way I see it, a man can still go outside and wear whatever the ♥♥♥♥ he wants and not have to be called a "♥♥♥♥" or some other defamatory horse♥♥♥♥. If a man does happen to get raped, no one will ever say he asked for it based on his sobriety or the way he dressed. A man can have his insurance cover his boner pills with no questions asked while women are in a constant battle with the government about birth control.

List goes on. Again, I am NOT a feminist, I just think, as a man, the MRA is a ♥♥♥♥ing joke and that's all I can say.
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.
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Yes, but we're talking about rights that affect individual people who have nothing to do with any of that. That's what I'm saying. The fact that there exist a few people within any grouping based on those factors who did some nasty stuff doesn't mean we should just ignore any problems faced by people covered under that description. You're using a condemnation that really only applies to a few (in relative terms) people currently alive to say that any problems faced by people as a result of falling under that description are "oppressors' problems" and thus not really important, or at least that's how I understood what you said in the previously quoted post.
Yeah, I think I slightly misinterpreted what you were saying there, sorry. I don't think any of that though (for men, at least). For the record I don't really disagree with the aim of the MRM, I just think that it's a movement born out of misogyny and a backlash to feminism and I don't see any reason why someone wanting to advocate for men's rights doesn't just identify as a feminist (especially considering a lot of the problems affecting men are born out of negative gender roles that affect both men and women). I think a lot of people forget that you can be whatever kind of feminist you want to be; as long as you believe that men and women should be equal you can focus on whatever you want, really.

Hackenfall Backslash

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. . . but we're talking about rights that affect individual people who have nothing to do with any of that. That's what I'm saying. The fact that there exist a few people within any grouping based on those factors who did some nasty stuff doesn't mean we should just ignore any problems faced by people covered under that description. You're using a condemnation that really only applies to a few (in relative terms) people currently alive to say that any problems faced by people as a result of falling under that description are "oppressors' problems" and thus not really important, or at least that's how I understood what you said in the previously quoted post.
Let the record show that I would get along with twocows.
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I don't necessarily support the MRA, but I do encourage their continued existence. It's only healthy for both sides of a debate to get relatively equal coverage, and while I won't say "woe is the male gender", it does feel like third wave feminism has talked about issues in a very one sided manner despite many proponents stating that it's about equality.

The way I see it, a man can still go outside and wear whatever the ♥♥♥♥ he wants and not have to be called a "♥♥♥♥" or some other defamatory horse♥♥♥♥. If a man does happen to get raped, no one will ever say he asked for it based on his sobriety or the way he dressed. A man can have his insurance cover his boner pills with no questions asked while women are in a constant battle with the government about birth control.

List goes on. Again, I am NOT a feminist, I just think, as a man, the MRA is a ♥♥♥♥ing joke and that's all I can say.
If a man is raped, he'll likely be criticized and his manhood will be questioned for even suggesting that he didn't want sex. He might also be told that "men can't be raped" and the worse thing is they might be right, since there are a handful of states and countries where rape legally involves penetration, so it'll be much harder for a man to prosecute his perpetrator and receive justice. I'll stop now with the comparisons since it's just going to end up as a pissing contest of societal oppression.

Gross oversimplifications aside, your whole argument doesn't really work because it's built on flawed logic. You're essentially saying that the suffering of group Y doesn't matter because group X has it worse.

AkameTheBulbasaur

Akame Marukawa of Iyotono

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408 posts
10 Years
Originally Posted by UndertakerFreak1127
If a man does happen to get raped, no one will ever say he asked for it based on his sobriety or the way he dressed.
You're quite correct. They won't say he asked for it based on how drunk he was or if his clothes were too skimpy. They'll say he asked for it because they think he's supposed to always want to have sex, or that he wasn't "strong" enough to defend himself.

That aside UndertakerFreak, I don't wish to be hostile towards you. I've been a fan of your videos for a while and I think we're on the same page about a lot of things. That said, I think that, although you call the MRM a joke, you might have more common ground than you think.

Remember that picture you posted on Facebook, the one that said that women could be sexists, perverts, deadbeats etc. just like men, and that they shouldn't be given special treatment because they have a vagina? The one that got deleted because somebody's feels were so, so hurt? Hopefully you do, because you made a video about it. That's the kind of thing that I've seen MRAs say; that women are equal to men and that they should be held to the same standards.

That's just my two cents on the matter. You don't have to agree with me, or them, or anybody about it.

Anyway, keep up the good work on your Youtube channel.
"The human sacrificed himself, to save the Pokemon. I pitted them against each other, but not until they set aside their differences did I see the true power they all share deep inside. I see now that the circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant; it is what you do with the gift of life that determines who you are." -Mewtwo