Minority Rights vs Human Rights or something Page 3

Started by Grey Wind July 23rd, 2014 12:22 PM
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Star-Lord

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Posted April 14th, 2018
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14.3 Years
Congratulations with the whole "yawn @ most of that" comment. If you can't take other peoples opinions seriously don't expect them to do the same for you.
It's not so much "seriously" as much as I'm not interested/have the time to read about ~700 words of stuff that ultimately always seems to miss the point. I've read many of your posts before and the general trend is I find that they're way too wordy and lack substance, sorry.



"Nobody thinks all whites are guilty of assaulting homosexuals but because they threatened to do it to me but gays haven't they're still the problem".
I take issue that you blame your grievances on being gay and the other person being straight rather than the other person just being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
I don't... do that. You've been misunderstanding the point. Gay people are aware that not all straight people do that? Or else we wouldn't have straight friends (Which would be tough) but we're also allowed to be WARY since this NEVER happens with gay people.

Sure, hate crimes happen but they shouldn't be treated differently from crimes motivated by other reasons. So no, I don't think because someone got beat up for being a certain way requires a whole political movement to seek reparations.
speechless really.

You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement.
Not at all comparable considering that contacts are a thing that exist and that eyeglasses bullying is hardly a thing beyond the playground.

They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour
You do realize there's been times things like this have been reported by minorities and haven't had it taken seriously because THEY'RE A MINORITY right?

b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
This is a disgusting mindset to think this is acceptable.

It can happen to anyone, even me, a straight, white, male. I got bullied and ostracised in school for being who I was, a quiet, weak dork but I can identify that it was just the problem of a few mean people, not their shallow features like skin colour.
Everybody knows this.

As I said before I have a lot of confidence in authority to deal with issues for minorities like any other problem, moreso than if someone who was not a minority claimed they had faced crime or discriminatory behaviour.
Yeah that sure explains why racial profiling in the states is still a thing.

Mana

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Do you think it's better to fight specifically for the rights of minorities (think lgbt people or poc) or to fight for general, all encompassing "human rights"?
Personal Position:
My viewpoint is that focusing on minority rights is necessary in order to balance human rights as a whole.

Reasoning/Evidence:
Without focusing somewhat on the problems that individual groups face, it can be hard to actually understand what is happening to them. My personal experience, as far as human rights go, is centered around LGBT rights - I know that the people who were on the fence about their feelings needed time and plenty of talks to help understand my point of view, and the differences in my life. I would assume I can extend this need to the nation in general; there are people in my country that are still 'on the fence' about homosexuals as they have little/no actual experience of them, they have real understanding of negatives of identifying as gay, openly.

There is one solid advantage that the LGBT community has over other minorities - the fact it is (more often than not) a hidden attribute. It is not a skin colour or a religious accessory that is so easily spotted. Whilst I do not personally know how it feels, I would imagine that their persecution, and fears relating to this, are even greater.

Assuming that exposure is the key, splitting up human rights into facets and minorities is the only real way to educate and highlight key differences. Whilst human rights should definitely be drilled home too, it doesn't help anyone understand religious traditions, ways of life, or the pain and suffering that group go through.

Some people will always go to the extreme - maybe its a sense of doing whatever it takes to gain their rights they deserve, or maybe it's an individual power trip. What needs to be remembered is that individuals do not normally act for the group. Their actions should not reflect on those doing things peacefully. In some ways, I think our news/journalists are to blame for constantly focusing on the extreme variants of protests. Some channels and newspapers definitely handle extremism and protesting in different ways - recently I would say BBC has done a good job at tackling issues of different groups (for example, they have many documentaries on BB3 aimed at the late-teen generation, which are normally quite informative).

Responses:
Or else we wouldn't have straight friends (Which would be tough) but we're also allowed to be WARY since this NEVER happens with gay people.
Alas, there definitely are homophobic people even in the gay community. There's also (at least, in my community) a slight divide between gays and lesbians - let alone the fact that transgender, which is totally separate IMO, is not 100% accepted amongst us despite being a key part of LGBT.

You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement. They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour or b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
I feel you have a point, but we should make a distinction here. Bullying at a school level is not the same as bullying at an adult level. Whilst children are learning, they make mistakes and these things happen - of course they should be dealt with swiftly, but they happen. In an adult environment, say a work place, the stakes are a lot higher - racism or homophobia could lead to you not getting a job, missing a promotion, being belittled by your colleagues and actually becomes a crime.

Yes, bullying in school might be considered a crime too, but I believe the scale is different and significant.

Conclusion (tdlr):
Minority rights should eventually lead to equal human rights. Focusing on groups may help educate people on the problems they face, and hopefully realise the injustice themselves. Sometimes, too much focus is put on extremist groups rather than your typical citizen, and some minority groups definitely get overshadowed by LGBT and some forms of racism. Hopefully this is a problem that can be addressed in the future, as a win for one majority group should (in theory) help the others too - paving the way forward to equality.
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I've met one openly gay person in real life
Read this very carefully. I'm just saying, if you're straight and have only ever met one openly gay person, maybe you're not the best person to talk about how gays should feel or how they should handle the oppression they face?

Caller_100, science lady, do you think what men did to you in the lab was socially acceptable? Would management or public opinion been approving of their actions? Definitely not. There are a few bad apples but it's not the fault of a certain gender. I'm actually concerned that women have certain powers over men. You had a basis for reporting those men but women can use the threat of fabricated male abuse and get us in trouble when we've done nothing wrong but nobody would believe us. For me that is an MRA issue of action without merit/evidence based on stereotypes which is why I'm against the power minorities want to hold and expand over policy makers and management.
Thank you for this part, though. Thank you for listening to what I was saying and then making a response. I'm fine agreeing to disagree with you - I just don't want my argument misrepresented, so thank you.

I didn't actually ever report anyone - it wasn't like it was anything I couldn't deal with or that I needed to tattle for. =) And I should also say that the majority of men in my classes/workspaces have been wonderful people, and I'm not blaming all males as a group for how a minority of males treat women. When I say that men are inherently privileged, I'm not trying to make a moral statement at all. Most men aren't misogynistic jerks, thank goodness. Some men are, but that's not even a point I'm trying to make. That's a completely separate issue from the issue of privilege (okay, maybe not COMPLETELY, but I think it can be left out for now).

I guess I just want to make the distinction between what you're saying and what I believe. I don't want minorities or any group to have more powers, rights, privileges, respect, you name it, than another. The end goal is equality. But I think that minority rights' groups are important because they give a strong, concentrated voice to people who have historically had their opinions neglected. It's important to listen to those opinions and give them equal weight to the views of the majority (white/men/straight/etc.). If it feels like people are giving more weight to the views of minorities, I think that's mostly because giving any weight at all to the views of minorities is a shift in the status quo. But really, anyone with any sense (and there will always, unfortunately, be extremists on both sides of an argument) really just wants to give everyone's views equal weight, not to put one group above another.

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But really, anyone with any sense (and there will always, unfortunately, be extremists on both sides of an argument) really just wants to give everyone's views equal weight, not to put one group above another.
Those same people with "any sense" would call themselves egalitarians, IF they had any sense.
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The rights of all groups must be approached on a case-by-case basis. As has been already established, different groups have differing needs. To deny that this individualization is essential is basically like saying you could take just one medication for everything. Doesn't work like that, different medications are used for different health problems.
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I don't wanna sound childish, but I didn't type up that long post for it to be ignored, and I'd appreciate a reply, even if it is just to bow out (especially if you're both going to continue posting in this thread with points I've already countered).

Also, I find it funny that you (Undertaker, Alex and Limerent) are basically arguing against yourselves. Nobody else in this thread has said that privilege means that you can't have problems or anything of the sort, and yet you still insist on arguing as if we have. Being privileged does not mean that you're a bad person and I never said that in any of my posts, so could all of you PLEASE stop playing the victim card.


essay
"I'm a straight white cis male and minorities getting angry at oppressors makes me uncomfortable because I'm too up my own ass to admit that maybe I have it a little better than some people". Grow up dude. I don't know why you have such a weird internalised paranoia (I'm still laughing at "minorities can get away with it") but you need to suck it up and take a look at the bigger picture.

You're no more special than victims who get attacked for other reasons. Imagine "the kids who got teased for having glasses" starting a movement. They couldn't help being bullied for their poor eyesight but they learnt to either a) report it to authority so it could be handled like any other harmful behaviour or b) deal with being attacked for who they were.
People with glasses don't have history of being persecuted and oppressed the same way poc, lgbt people and women do. Make fun of someone with glasses, you're a bully. Make fun of someone for being gay, you're contributing to and the product of an oppressive system that's existed for generations.

That last part is... awful, honestly. As someone who is gay, being told to "deal with" homophobia is incredibly offensive and I think you should try and open your eyes a little more instead of being blind to the struggles of other people.

Is that an acceptable level of homophobia?
No level of homophobia is acceptable.


So what I'm gathering from your posts is that you think that gay and straight people are equal in society? Am I right in saying that? I'd really like a straight answer here.

Kanzler

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Sorry, but you don't 'fight' for human rights by doing things like telling minorities to "just get over" institutionalized racism. Just about all of the divisiveness in these threads is coming from the anti-SJ folks. No one is telling men how to deal with their issues (in fact most feminists encourage men to speak up about it??), and y'all need to relax when it comes to the policing of how other groups of people deal with theirs. I mean..look at the Men's Rights thread...instead of discussing the issues men face and what can be done about them...the thread was almost entirely about bashing activism...just like every other human rights related thread.

I also think a lot of you are confusing trolls for actual feminists...which explains the undeserved hate Tumblr gets. A lot of those images circulating the internet of "crazy SJW rants" are almost always anti-Feminists. For example, the trending Twitter hashtag about "ending fathers day" was actually a 4chan prank trying to make feminism look bad. These sorts of people are everywhere. The sad thing is, people are so desperate to get their anti-SJW rocks off that they'll gobble it up and believe it - why? Misogyny, most likely.

tldr: You all need to stop being so bitter about what women and other groups of people do to deal with their oppression, and until then no one will take your "human rights" seriously.
Well, that's just the thing. Nobody likes being told what to do. And it's a shame really that on the internet (I will have to use this qualifier over and over again) that this is what activism turns into. Armchair activism with young folk who feel entitled to tell other people what to do. When it comes down to what matters, I don't think most people feel are actually misogynistic or are against the rights of those less privileged. Most of our discussion here is based on what goes on in the internet. It's very meta, but unfortunately hardly applicable to the real world. When was the last time anybody talked about pride parade? Or instances of racism as they've experienced it (I made a thread about that way back in the day)? The discussion here is so abstract and ungrounded in reality, so much that it descends into people criticizing each other because I feel that there's nothing substantial to talk about.

People react to people telling them what to do, what to feel, what kind of language to use, and I feel that's what our "MRAs" here are really reacting against. I imagine that a lot of people, on the internet especially, really don't like the idea of people telling them how to do things. At the end of the day it's just a whole lot of posturing about nothing which is why it is in my opinion that these sort of internet activism things (like the ones you see in social media among friend groups) are useless. I mean, the point of activism is to change beliefs, and if you aren't accomplishing that then something's wrong, right? There's a million ways to be active for the causes you value, but unfortunately on the internet too many people only know how to do one thing too well.

And in addition, there is a whole ♥♥♥♥ton of baiting going on. You will have people say extreme things they will then take back - we even have examples of this in D&D. People on both "sides" of the argument (but like I've said it's an argument about nothing, and most of these people are probably on the same side of the human rights spectrum). People end up overstating whatever it is they believe just to make a point, but the more of that occurs and the more people take it seriously, the less the discussion is based in reality and the less it means. Like, this isn't productive, is it? Any of it? I personally don't care about any one person's opinion, because it doesn't mean anything. In the big picture, what counts is making the cause attractive and easy to understand. That is what activism is to be all about.

Oryx

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False. As long as you don't hurt anyone, deny them employment based on irrelevant factors or verbally abuse them you can have whatever opinion you'd like. I am allowed to not like you, or people like you.
You're talking about what's "allowed", not what's acceptable. In addition, you aren't in a position to tell another person what they find acceptable and unacceptable. What you "can" do is very different from what you "should" do. I can walk up to strangers on the street and tell them that I hate them for no reason at all. However, I wouldn't find that acceptable behavior. A friend can lie to me and tell me they'll meet me somewhere, and then have me go out of my way to meet them and never show up. However, I'd find that behavior unacceptable and there would be a consequence - the loss of my friendship.

You can be homophobic, but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept it, and hopefully most people won't because it's an abhorrent position to stand for. Unfortunately the grim reality is plenty of people will accept it, because our society still espouses a lot of homophobic ideals. Doesn't mean Grey Wind has to accept homophobia though.


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Hate crimes are not more important than other crimes. It doesn't deserve special attention. I don't care if you get hurt in a street robbery or homophobic attack. They deserve the exact same response from the police and judicial system. If it's the same action it deserves the same level of punishment regardless of motive.
Okay, treat them the same in terms of punishments under the law, but the motive still needs to be addressed. If a crime occurred due to homophobia, than obviously homophobia is an issue that needs to be addressed.

99% of the people that existed in "oppressive" time periods are dead. What you want is revenge/special treatment because most of society is not against you.
We've said this several times: No one wants revenge. No one wants "special" treatment. Just equal treatment. That's what we're arguing for. You're arguing against an argument that no one here is making.

Yes there are anti-discrimination laws. That's obviously a big deal. But that doesn't mean that a lot of people aren't still prejudiced, even if just a little bit. And that little bit builds up.

Have you tried filing a police report, a complaint to your workplace ombudsman (not employer) or school administration if you're being discriminated against? I bet you haven't, all you do is scream at the population who aren't responsible for your troubles.
We're adults. We expect other adults to take responsibility for their thoughts and actions without always needing to tattle-tale on them.

False. As long as you don't hurt anyone, deny them employment based on irrelevant factors or verbally abuse them you can have whatever opinion you'd like. I am allowed to not like you, or people like you.
But in the end, if someone dislike someone purely because of their sexuality, that still makes them a terrible person. Nothing you can do about it legally if they're not hurting anyone, but that doesn't make it okay.

Laws shouldn't be based off accommodating people for inconsequential factors like skin colour, sexuality or gender. That's the epitome of discrimination. But nope, you think that's ok because minorities are always oh so oppressed by us evil non-minorities.
Exactly, laws should treat everybody the same, regardless of skin color, sexuality, or gender. Sometimes they don't (gay marriage, for example), and that's a problem, but the problem extends a lot further than just the law. None of us here have argued for laws that would oppress non-minorities. We've argued that sometimes non-minorities and minorities alike have biases that sometimes make many aspects of life a little or a lot more difficult for minorities.
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Legally you are treated equally. Apart from gay marriage, which I oppose on the grounds that relationships shouldn't require state recognition and should be no different than two people of any creed signing a contract to own a property.
Wait, wait. You oppose gay marriage because... you think everyone has the right to be in a relationship? I'm confused.

Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
Not if the minorities are already facing increased discrimination. Then it's just equalizing the playing field.

Blanket statements that "all gays are treated worse off than straights" are just individual opinion really
Again, not what we're saying. We're saying straight people don't face discrimination for being straight, not that being straight automatically makes every aspect of your life sunshine and gumdrops.

I'm really trying to explain this the best I can. But what keeps happening is that Grey Wind and I are telling you about something that we experience every day of our lives and you're denying that it exists. How can you deny that something that people actually experience isn't real? It's like if I told you I have a dog and you told me I didn't. Um, yes I do? It's right there.

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Thread derailed successfully. Mission failed. Returning to base!
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Alas, there definitely are homophobic people even in the gay community. There's also (at least, in my community) a slight divide between gays and lesbians - let alone the fact that transgender, which is totally separate IMO, is not 100% accepted amongst us despite being a key part of LGBT.
That's an entirely different can of worms though, and isn't what I was saying. Like you're not wrong because the gay community has a lot of problems but the fact is if I wouldn't fear negative reaction for coming out to a gay man/lesbian woman rather than a straight person.

Legally you are treated equally. Apart from gay marriage, which I oppose on the grounds that relationships shouldn't require state recognition and should be no different than two people of any creed signing a contract to own a property.
Nobody cares about your opinion on marriage. The fact is people are still unequal about it. Like even if you hate marriage you can't deny the legal benefits which come from it?

Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
I didn't realize legisliation making sure that people can't get fired on the mere SUSPICION that they're gay was discrimination. The entire point is to... eliminate discrimination?

At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
At the very least you know many people who consider themselves minorities don't respect your views.

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Making legislation to specifically protect minorities is not equal, it's discriminatory.
I cannot BELIEVE Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves....could he be any more racist?


At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
Recognizing diversity is not discrimination. Diversity should be celebrated. Just because you're a white male that has never had to think twice about how some aspect of yourself may cause societal harm to you, doesn't mean everyone can easily ignore such a thing. Colorblindness is just as bas as racism. Labels are only bad when they're used to discriminate, but you need to realize that something is not discriminatory because it doesn't benefit white males.
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First off, cut the ♥♥♥♥ing privilege crap the hell out. You do not automatically have "privilege" just because you are a white male.
Yes, you do.

There's a lot of things that modify "privilege". Also, privilege is non quantifiable, non comparable, non measurable and non predictable. It's not a ♥♥♥♥ing stat in a video game, stop treating it like one.
We're not trying to do this? I think we've been pretty clear that privilege based on one's gender/race/sexuality/whatever is only one factor out of many that determines a person's experiences in life.

[b]You idiots telling him to go and "check his privilege" or whatever are just as bad as him saying that he is annoyed by homosexuals.
No one ever told anyone to "check their privilege." Where did you see that? And don't call me an idiot, thanks. You don't know me.

And I'm pretty sure that me pointing out a basic reality of how the world works to someone isn't "bad" at all, and certainly isn't on the level of homophobia.

THIRD, and most jarringly, I have never seen a group of idiots (outside of tumblr) show so little disrespect for people's opinion. YES, I DISAGREE WITH LIMMERENT. But how do I express this level of disagreement?[/i]
I've been trying to be as polite and respectful as possible without compromising my opinions. I haven't been insulting anyone, I haven't been flaming anyone, I haven't cursed anybody out. I really don't think you have any right to be disgusted by how I've been acting.

Like you said, you can express that you don't like the way this conversation is going (and I don't either - I wish it was more discussion and less flaming) without needing to curse at us and insult people.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude here. But I am going to stand up for myself just a little. I don't think any of our arguments against Limerent or Alex or Undertaker have been in any way out of line.

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At the moment I'm not supportive of minorities because they're drowning in minority rights activists which I see as one sided and discriminatory. If they'd throw away their labels and consent to being recognised as nothing more than people it'd be a step forward.
People refusing to talk about how they're being discriminated against because they don't want to "make it about race/gender/sexuality" only support the people doing the discriminating, allowing them to continue without consequence.

What it comes down to is you, as a person who doesn't experience any of this kind of discrimination, have decided that it doesn't exist or it's not "serious" enough to talk about. When people speak about privilege, this is what they mean - you are not in any position to talk about what discrimination exists because you do not experience it, but you have decided that you are in that position and have formed a position that actively fights against those who are discriminated against. You've never had to worry that if you ask a guy from the party you went to to walk you home, he might rape you, but if you don't ask him you might get raped and then told that you shouldn't have been alone. You've never had to worry that if you need help on the street and knock on a door, you'll get shot. You've never had to worry that socialization is influencing how you interact with people and thus harming your chances at moving forward in life. Therefore, you've decided these things don't exist. And when people who experience them tell you they exist, you ignore them and repeat that they don't exist and everyone should just be quiet about the discrimination they face because they're "causing" it by pointing it out and trying to fix it. It's a poster child example of being so privileged that you're unable to understand the experiences of anyone else.

Fortunately for you, the best part of privilege is you can walk away and not have to worry about it. Everyone else gets to walk away and deal with this discrimination every day for the rest of their lives, but lucky you gets to bow out after telling everyone it's not a real thing and move on as if nothing happened.


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I don't think there's anything wrong with a particular group fighting for their own rights, but I can understand where the objections to this line of reasons are coming from. I think there is a danger of seeing your own group's rights as having priority over the rights of the people outside your group. Not saying that this applies to everyone, but there's definitely people like that out there.

I think our ultimate goal should be human rights, and LGBT rights, women's rights, minority rights, etc. are simply the steps we need to take to reach that goal.
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Why can't we all be egalitarians? I'm sick of seeing "whatever's rights" because the reality is that it's missing the point. There are discrepancies. Men have problems, women have problems, everyone else has problems, these problems have a root cause rooted in our own culture and ignorance. If we take a step back and instead of saying "BUT WOMYN!!!1 PRIVILEGE derpderp!!11" and realize that a root problem harms everyone then maybe we would make progress.

That is unlikely to happen looking at the state of the internet's opinion on this.

And perhaps, what is most depressing, is that so many people are focused on an individuals problems (oftentimes problems that they personally face) that the root problem that causes problems for everyone is shrugged underneath.

So yes, I do think that minority problems are important, because they are often rooted in problems with how we view ourselves, and it afflicts everyone. It just hurts other people more noticably.

Keiran

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Most people that identify as egalitarian are white twenty-something pseudo-intellectuals that just want to speak over other groups of people.

Like for example...what place does a cishet person have in speaking about trans rights? Literally none. There's no problem with keeping things seperate..and no one seems to have a problem with that except bored cishet/white people that are upset theres no 'movement' for them. Egalitarians are kind of like those people that get mad over the lack of a White History Month when white history is already celebrated all year long.

If you're not ____, why do you care how _____ people campaign for their equality/liberation? If you want to show support just start listening to what _____ people say and call out problematic behavior done by people like you. That's how human rights are won.
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Most people that identify as egalitarian are white twenty-something pseudo-intellectuals that just want to speak over other groups of people.

Like for example...what place does a cishet person have in speaking about trans rights? Literally none. There's no problem with keeping things seperate..and no one seems to have a problem with that except bored cishet/white people that are upset theres no 'movement' for them. Egalitarians are kind of like those people that get mad over the lack of a White History Month when white history is already celebrated all year long.

If you're not ____, why do you care how _____ people campaign for their equality/liberation? If you want to show support just start listening to what _____ people say and call out problematic behavior done by people like you. That's how human rights are won.
I think the role of allies is an incredibly important thing to bring up. Do you believe that someone who isn't part of the group can be part of the movement in the same way a person in the group is, or do you believe that they inherently go into a separate ally group?


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68 posts
8.9 Years
I think the role of allies is an incredibly important thing to bring up. Do you believe that someone who isn't part of the group can be part of the movement in the same way a person in the group is, or do you believe that they inherently go into a separate ally group?
I feel like it's important to be inclusive in that allies are part of the same group as members of the specific group being advocated for. For example, I love, love, love when I meet men who identify as feminists. The fact that they want to actively advocate for my rights, even though they're not women, is really impressive to me. At the same time, I think it's important for an ally to realize that, as someone who is not a member of the group being advocated for, their knowledge and ability to speak for the group is not as great as someone who's actually part of the group. (I feel like I'm overusing the word group - let me know if I should try to explain any of this better.) As in, I can advocate for LGBTQ rights, and I can make an effort to understand the issues the community faces as best as possible, but I'll never truly understand, and so I don't really have the right to be a voice of that movement in the same way that someone who is actually gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans does.

Neil Peart

Learn to swim

Age 32
Male
Helsinki, Finland
Seen April 10th, 2021
Posted March 7th, 2021
753 posts
13.1 Years
Most people that identify as egalitarian are white twenty-something pseudo-intellectuals that just want to speak over other groups of people.

Like for example...what place does a cishet person have in speaking about trans rights? Literally none. There's no problem with keeping things seperate..and no one seems to have a problem with that except bored cishet/white people that are upset theres no 'movement' for them. Egalitarians are kind of like those people that get mad over the lack of a White History Month when white history is already celebrated all year long.

If you're not ____, why do you care how _____ people campaign for their equality/liberation? If you want to show support just start listening to what _____ people say and call out problematic behavior done by people like you. That's how human rights are won.
So just because I don't identify as something or am something, I can't speak about it? What if I had a lot of knowledge about the subject? You're basically saying a cis couldn't speak out in favor of non-cis people at a pride rally just because they aren't trans. Good job.

Also, I'm perfectly fine with not having a movement for me, and that's a completely unfounded and ridiculous statement to make. You can argue your case without having to resort to BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS, you know. Or not, either way you'll have at least one other person blindly agreeing with you.

Overall I have to say this is one of the most misguided, assumption-laced posts I've ever seen in this thread.
If you’ve got a problem, take it out on a drum.

Tek

Age 33
Male
Kansas City
Seen 2 Days Ago
Posted May 1st, 2020
939 posts
9.6 Years

That's all I feel like saying. I'm sure SOMEONE will pick apart what I said and twist it around to fit their victim narrative. In anticipation of that, I'll summarise my arguments below.
I agree with you that we shouldn't expect someone else to fix our problems. It's a mentality that accomplishes very little. Keep that in mind as I show you why I disagree with all of your major arguments.


Race: White people did some ♥♥♥♥. It's old news. Let it go. The same people that are being "held down by whitey" are the same people living in white nations, going to white schools and affiliating white people/companies/organisations. Choose one. Can't have both. Either stay away from them or leave them the hell alone, UNLESS, as I've already said, it ventures into aggressive, KKK territory.
I don't know where you live, but racism is very much alive and well in rural Midwestern America. Neither side trusts the other. The younger generations often grow beyond the old ways, but not always. And yes this is a firsthand account. All knowledge is firsthand before it's anything else.

I haven't been to every little hick town, but I've spent a lot of time in a lot of towns around here. I've lived here all my life, and I can reasonably infer that what I have seen specifically is the case generally for the rural Midwest.

What you don't seem to realize is that racism isn't big and boisterous anymore. It lurks in the shadows and the whispers. In a predominately white town, the few black people will be isolated: many (mostly older) people will avoid any contact, and even the more sensible folk are uncomfortable and avoidant. Which means that when a black person gets overcharged by a mechanic, denied for a job, screwed over by the car salesman, they have no one to go to with their issues.

Your suggestion is that they just up and leave their hometown. Which may be an option or may not, but here's the thing: they did nothing to deserve this treatment. Is it fair to require them to uproot their family? Hell no.

Honestly your suggested course of action is medieval and would almost certainly exacerbate the type of unfair treatment I mentioned above. This quiet racism can only happen when areas are predominately one color, and largely distrustful of or uncomfortable with other colors.


Sex/Gender: Men have power, but also responsibility. Until I see feminists tackling male issues (instead of tackling female issues claiming they help males too without evidence to support this), until I see feminists talking about the courts or marriage laws, until I see open and honest dialogue taking place without the 'M' word being used, until I see women going for STEM and other hard degrees and being prohibited from obtaining them (essentially proof of the wage gap/employment gap), you lot will get no quarter from me. Either practice equality or don't, but be honest about it for Christs' Sake!
If I'm understanding this correctly, your argument is that since men are held accountable for their actions but women are not, men don't receive any sort of special treatment.

I hope I'm not understanding you correctly.

And also, are you making the argument that women shouldn't stand up for their rights unless they also stand up for men's rights? Should they also have to clean up our rivers and fund the government before being allowed to point out injustice?


Sexuality: Your sexual identity/orientation is seen as strange (or queer, as the true definition means 'strange'). No one cares as much as you think they do. Only religious whackjobs with nothing better to do. I certainly don't care. I personally find gay males much easier to deal with than straight ones. Let people say what will about you, but defend yourself if need be. Okay? OKAY!
Once again, this is the exact opposite of what is true in the Midwest. You get shunned, beaten and otherwise mistreated if certain people even think you might be gay. And we all have heard this news stories of boys who were discovered to actually be gay and were killed in excruciatingly painful ways because of it.

I find it ironic that you accused someone of making false assertions about everyone else based on their own experience. In regards to "no one cares as much as you think they do", I can only say: put on a dress, spend some time in my neck of the woods, and I'll call the ambulance.
Like for example...what place does a cishet person have in speaking about trans rights? Literally none.
Translation: You aren't this type of person, so any and all opinions you have about these type of people are invalid.

I guess this means I have no right to speak in favor of gay rights since I'm not gay myself.

Keiran

[b]Rock Solid[/b]

Age 31
New Jersey
Seen March 14th, 2022
Posted July 25th, 2018
2,441 posts
12.1 Years
I think the role of allies is an incredibly important thing to bring up. Do you believe that someone who isn't part of the group can be part of the movement in the same way a person in the group is, or do you believe that they inherently go into a separate ally group?
The role of allies is to listen and call out problematic behavior, and it is by doing this that they can take part in a movement. For example, when black people speak about racism - I listen. And when I see white people doing something racist, I call it out. By knowing what is racist/problematic, by listening and not speaking over I can help achieve equality by calling out people like me on their behavior and educating them.

So just because I don't identify as something or am something, I can't speak about it? What if I had a lot of knowledge about the subject? You're basically saying a cis couldn't speak out in favor of non-cis people at a pride rally just because they aren't trans. Good job.

Also, I'm perfectly fine with not having a movement for me, and that's a completely unfounded and ridiculous statement to make. You can argue your case without having to resort to BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS, you know. Or not, either way you'll have at least one other person blindly agreeing with you.

Overall I have to say this is one of the most misguided, assumption-laced posts I've ever seen in this thread.
Translation: You aren't this type of person, so any and all opinions you have about these type of people are invalid.

I guess this means I have no right to speak in favor of gay rights since I'm not gay myself.
It is okay to use what you've learned from _____ people, like I've explained above. But we're never going to make progress if allies don't listen and believe their opinions are more valid than the people that are experiencing a specific injustice.
Mod of Trade Corner| Pair | Trainer Information

When kings upon the main have clung to pride
And held themselves as masters of the sea
I've held them down beneath the crushing tide
Till they have learned that no one masters me
Age 30
Female
Seen November 2nd, 2014
Posted August 11th, 2014
68 posts
8.9 Years
The role of allies is to listen and call out problematic behavior, and it is by doing this that they can take part in a movement. For example, when black people speak about racism - I listen. And when I see white people doing something racist, I call it out. By knowing what is racist/problematic, by listening and not speaking over I can help achieve equality by calling out people like me on their behavior and educating them.
Just wanted to say that I agree with this 100% and I'm glad you said it, because you put it into words much better than I could have. Listening and realizing that you can't possibly know everything about a situation you're not personally in are both so important.