Transhumanism

Started by twocows September 1st, 2014 8:53 AM
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twocows

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Let's talk about transhumanism. Transhumanism is the idea that we can use science to advance humanity on a fundamental level, improving ourselves in all sorts of ways through the use of technology. Think cybernetics, transformative medicine and drugs, genetic engineering, and human-computer interfaces, though it can really be any kind of technology that we can use to enhance ourselves.

Obviously there's a lot of concern from many people that this kind of thing goes too far, that change is something that should happen naturally and not something we should prompt, or that certain technologies used to enhance ourselves could be unethical. Some people worry that we may lose our humanity in the process of trying to become more than human.

I'm curious what you all think. Do you like the idea of possibly enhancing yourself through the use of technology? Do you think the idea is a good one, or do you think it's too dangerous or unethical?
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think within the next century, maybe within my lifetime, digital immortality will be developed. For that to happen, we would have to have a complete understanding of the human mind, the ability to store all of that data within a reasonably sized computer, and a computer powerful enough to process it. This will happen, it's just a matter of when.

Once it happens, we'll have the ability to transfer our minds into computers, in which we'll have no need for food, water, sleep, bathroom breaks, etc. We also will be able to copy, paste, and edit that data at will, meaning that we'll have an unlimited number of human minds with an unlimited amount of free time to think and work. Plus, as our computing technology continues to advance, we can likely increase the speed at which we can think and work to beyond human capabilities. Technological advancement will change from an exponential curve to a vertical line.

So yeah, I'm pretty hyped for it. lol

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why isn't it surprising that the first time I see this word is PC? classic.

To those who have lived long lives without the intervention of cybernetic enhancements or whatever, it's going to be an UNNATURAL AND ABSURD thing to have, though it's gonna happen gradually I reckon. I think it'll take quite some time for technology to advance to the point where ethics is called into question, in terms of completely cheating death with it etc.

Probably not something that's going to be affecting me in my lifetime, or I'll probably be too senile to appreciate it for its positive/negative(?) effect.
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think within the next century, maybe within my lifetime, digital immortality will be developed. For that to happen, we would have to have a complete understanding of the human mind, the ability to store all of that data within a reasonably sized computer, and a computer powerful enough to process it. This will happen, it's just a matter of when.

Once it happens, we'll have the ability to transfer our minds into computers, in which we'll have no need for food, water, sleep, bathroom breaks, etc. We also will be able to copy, paste, and edit that data at will, meaning that we'll have an unlimited number of human minds with an unlimited amount of free time to think and work. Plus, as our computing technology continues to advance, we can likely increase the speed at which we can think and work to beyond human capabilities. Technological advancement will change from an exponential curve to a vertical line.

So yeah, I'm pretty hyped for it. lol
If we assume that the human "soul" is encapsulated completely within the brain (feel free to correct me if you don't believe this), how would we reconcile creating new humans simply to work, with souls and wishes and dreams of their own? Would a human brain that has been copied 30,000 times be less human than those who were born in meatspace, thus making it ethical to copy that brain for work and nothing more?


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If we assume that the human "soul" is encapsulated completely within the brain (feel free to correct me if you don't believe this), how would we reconcile creating new humans simply to work, with souls and wishes and dreams of their own? Would a human brain that has been copied 30,000 times be less human than those who were born in meatspace, thus making it ethical to copy that brain for work and nothing more?
I don't think we have souls, personally. I think we're purely information contained within an organic computer. So, copying that information multiple times once it's in an electronic computer wouldn't affect it in any way. Of course, if you outright copy someone's brain, then there are two exact copies of that same person floating around. You could alter their memories and personality to make them think that they're a unique person, but that could be interpreted as being quite cruel, depending on how you think about it.

I think ultimately 'workers' will have their minds altered so that they don't question their position, and don't have desires other than work. They may even be engineered from the ground up for their purpose, rather than using existing minds, who knows.

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Don't we already kind of do that with prosthetic? It's really only a matter of time.

Speaking of which, I wish I could get a fully prosthetic heart. My heart has a tendency to get debilitating heart palpitations when I most certainly do not want them.
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I don't think we have souls, personally. I think we're purely information contained within an organic computer. So, copying that information multiple times once it's in an electronic computer wouldn't affect it in any way. Of course, if you outright copy someone's brain, then there are two exact copies of that same person floating around. You could alter their memories and personality to make them think that they're a unique person, but that could be interpreted as being quite cruel, depending on how you think about it.

I think ultimately 'workers' will have their minds altered so that they don't question their position, and don't have desires other than work. They may even be engineered from the ground up for their purpose, rather than using existing minds, who knows.
While I generally agree with you that we are organic computers devoid of souls, I don't think copying that information as data would allow a person to live on artificially. Much of who we are and how we behave is influenced by our chemistry. Unless you could couple the data from the brain with a program that mimics hormones and other chemicals in that person's body I can't see how they could remain the same.

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I don't think we have souls, personally. I think we're purely information contained within an organic computer. So, copying that information multiple times once it's in an electronic computer wouldn't affect it in any way. Of course, if you outright copy someone's brain, then there are two exact copies of that same person floating around. You could alter their memories and personality to make them think that they're a unique person, but that could be interpreted as being quite cruel, depending on how you think about it.

I think ultimately 'workers' will have their minds altered so that they don't question their position, and don't have desires other than work. They may even be engineered from the ground up for their purpose, rather than using existing minds, who knows.
That last clause in your first paragraph is what I'm trying to ask you about, not the scientific abilities we may have. My question is, do you think it's ethical to play around with these copied brains? They would have the same kind of consciousness as you or me, and I think we can agree that we would say it's unethical for scientists to muck about with our brain without our consent, or force us into work slavery. But does the same hold true for brains that are copies of another brain, copied specifically for a task? Are those computer programs, which we can ethically change and use at will, or people, which we have to have consent to modify and use?

Is something ethically okay just because the "person" in question is okay with it? What about if they're only okay with it because we modified them to be okay with it?


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That last clause in your first paragraph is what I'm trying to ask you about, not the scientific abilities we may have. My question is, do you think it's ethical to play around with these copied brains? They would have the same kind of consciousness as you or me, and I think we can agree that we would say it's unethical for scientists to muck about with our brain without our consent, or force us into work slavery. But does the same hold true for brains that are copies of another brain, copied specifically for a task? Are those computer programs, which we can ethically change and use at will, or people, which we have to have consent to modify and use?

Is something ethically okay just because the "person" in question is okay with it? What about if they're only okay with it because we modified them to be okay with it?
No, I don't think it's ethical. Being that I think we are simply information, I also think that any set of information in a digital computer as complex as our own should be considered real sentient life. Even a copy in a computer is a real person, and should have the same rights as us. That said, I do think it's a very possible future. Depends on the political climate(s) at the time, whether the general public looks at these as real people, and whether or not they can be convinced that the massive boon to science and technology are worth violating the rights of a few copies.

While I generally agree with you that we are organic computers devoid of souls, I don't think copying that information as data would allow a person to live on artificially. Much of who we are and how we behave is influenced by our chemistry. Unless you could couple the data from the brain with a program that mimics hormones and other chemicals in that person's body I can't see how they could remain the same.
Well, in reality, that information by itself is useless. It requires a computer that knows what to do with it. Those chemicals are either information being fed to the computer, or the computer processing that information. No different than how our computers work, just replace chemicals with electricity. So yeah, we'd have write programs to process that information in the same way as our brain/bodies would as well.

Even still, I wouldn't actually say that this technically allows us to live on further than normal. Information can't move; It can only be copied and deleted. Meaning that yes, you can copy your mind into a computer, and then your copy could continue to live on in your place. No one else would ever know the difference, but it would never actually be you. You won't experience anything that they experience. Even if they did "transfer" your mind, in reality it's just copying it over, and then deleting the original.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately because I'm tinkering with the idea of getting into writing more, and this is the subject that's interested me the most. lol
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Personally I find implanting chips into people's brains to be something that could easily go wrong. Someone could hack into that chip and take over the person...I know it sounds very sci-fi but I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened.

On an interesting side note the idea of trans-humanism is actually older than we think, except in the past they tried to make it happen by controlling the gene pool. Personally I like this modern version better.
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No way! I won't even touch on how unethical it is.

Invasion of privacy. How do we know these chips aren't computing everything we do and sending them to the government or a company?

What if the chip gets damaged and little shards are in our brain? Talk about a headeache...

As someone mentioned above, what of someone hacked you and controlled you? A person could have a potential army in a matter of DAYS.

These could be weaponized as a bomb through security at an airport or government facility. It could be used as spying.

No thank you.
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Corvus of the Black Night

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Invasion of privacy. How do we know these chips aren't computing everything we do and sending them to the government or a company?
I think this is actually a pretty interesting concern you bring up. However, unless the humans are connected to the internet or some other wide area communication network, it's unlikely that something like this would happen. Not only this, but the sheer volume of data that would be produced if even 500 people were turned into mechanical forms this way would probably make such an endeavour pointless (if these "brains" were direct copies of human bodies, think about how much information would be coming from dirty thoughts lol)

What if the chip gets damaged and little shards are in our brain? Talk about a headeache...
It's unlikely that whatever brain is manufactured in that way would be that vulnerable to damage. Look at external hard drives. You can pretty much drop one of these things on the floor (try that with a brain) and it will still work in most cases. (Don't actually do this unless you're ready for the possible risk though!).

As someone mentioned above, what of someone hacked you and controlled you? A person could have a potential army in a matter of DAYS.
This is likely unable to happen unless the humans are connected to some way to the internet or similar network. Even if the robo-humans were connected to a local network it would be impossible to hack them unless you had access to that network.

These could be weaponized as a bomb through security at an airport or government facility. It could be used as spying.
The former is another interesting point, but it seems like it would be just too expensive for something like that - you're basically turning a human into a robot for a bomb, why not just make a robot that looks like a human and plant it in a place where it can just do the same behaviours to appear nondescript?

The latter is probably irrelevant.

I do like the cool "spy" twist you took this thread but I genuinely believe that a lot of this stuff is either impractical or impossible.

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I think it's unrealistic to think that if we have chips in our brains in the future, they wouldn't be connected to some kind of network. We're moving towards more and more integrated information in our lives, not less.


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I think this is actually a pretty interesting concern you bring up. However, unless the humans are connected to the internet or some other wide area communication network, it's unlikely that something like this would happen. Not only this, but the sheer volume of data that would be produced if even 500 people were turned into mechanical forms this way would probably make such an endeavour pointless (if these "brains" were direct copies of human bodies, think about how much information would be coming from dirty thoughts lol)


It's unlikely that whatever brain is manufactured in that way would be that vulnerable to damage. Look at external hard drives. You can pretty much drop one of these things on the floor (try that with a brain) and it will still work in most cases. (Don't actually do this unless you're ready for the possible risk though!).


This is likely unable to happen unless the humans are connected to some way to the internet or similar network. Even if the robo-humans were connected to a local network it would be impossible to hack them unless you had access to that network.


The former is another interesting point, but it seems like it would be just too expensive for something like that - you're basically turning a human into a robot for a bomb, why not just make a robot that looks like a human and plant it in a place where it can just do the same behaviours to appear nondescript?

The latter is probably irrelevant.

I do like the cool "spy" twist you took this thread but I genuinely believe that a lot of this stuff is either impractical or impossible.
Good point. However, if you can somehow hide a bomb inside if ones head (metal detector will not notice because of all the metal). You can potentially kill over a hundred people.
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Alice

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I think it's unrealistic to think that if we have chips in our brains in the future, they wouldn't be connected to some kind of network. We're moving towards more and more integrated information in our lives, not less.
Probably, although I would imagine it would be optional/toggle-able. That said, I also wouldn't be surprised if the government required them to secretly include a way for it to be enabled remotely or something.

This sort of technology will definitely present some pretty major problems, especially early on. Heck, if another solar flare on the level of the Carrington Even were to happen, all electronics on the planet would most likely either be broken, set on fire, or explode. If we have them inside of us, or are inside of them ourselves, then that's really going to suck. The thing is that, it's not really a matter of if, but when... and when probably isn't all that far away. (A century or two at the latest, today at the earliest.) That's the biggest threat I see to this view of the future.

twocows

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People are concentrating pretty hard on the "chip in head" part, but there are other aspects, too. Genetic engineering and manipulation (possibly even on adults), certain kinds of medicine or drugs, there are other ways we can change ourselves. There's also the idea that we can make certain kinds of implants that don't require certain compounds, like metal. And we might be able to make removable implants for certain things, too.
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I think it's unrealistic to think that if we have chips in our brains in the future, they wouldn't be connected to some kind of network. We're moving towards more and more integrated information in our lives, not less.
I agree. Some of the first chips that may be implanted into people's brains will be for the blind to circumvent their condition (particularly those with optic nerve damage - see Monash bionic eye) and to operate they must receive wireless information from their camera. If this were hacked you could force someone to see whatever you wanted to against their will.

Also, imagine if the next Google Glass is an implant that allows you to browse the Internet and watch videos through your visual cortex and not a screen. People would probably implant a chip in their brain for that. This would require wireless connectivity which is vulnerable to the aforementioned attack.

On the other hand, I think the possibility of control is limited. In order for that to occur I would expect that you would need to have hardware in the brain that could transmit information to the correct areas of the brain. The concept in the bionic eye project requires the chip to be surgically inserted into the visual cortex in order to stimulate it. I would assume this means that data cannot be sent to this chip to stimulate other centres of the brain.

"So", I hear you say, "they can implant more chips, etc." Due to the body's "foreign body reaction" to many biomaterials there is a good chance that chips that are too invasive will become covered in scar tissue and cease to work. This alone may prevent the actual possibility of the insertion of any chip in the body.

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One of the main points my mind stayed on in the OP was the thought of medicine. Aren't we hitting a point in time where bacteria/viruses are becoming resistant to modern day medicine? Maybe not in huge, substantial quantities, but I believe the theory was the remaining bacteria that survived the medicine onslaught would reproduce, carrying a resistant to the next generation of bacteria so they could better survive the attack, and so on so forth the cycle continues. Aren't we going to hit a point where the bacteria is going to become too strong for medicine nowadays and ultimately be the cause of our downfall? While that's still a long ways away, I feel that this outcome is still possible.
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Transhumanism, eh? Sounds like an interesting topic.

To me, the whole concept sounds very unethical. Copying a person's consciousness over to another area to have it do the same thing sounds unethical in most people's minds.

I'd like to refer to an anime I finished recently called Psycho-Pass. It had a system that judged everyone that was similar to this. Spoilers in case you want to watch it and don't want plot details ruined for you.
Spoiler:
Eventually you find out the system that judges who is criminal and who is not is run by a group of brains that with the aid of computers are sped up in calculations. They still retain a body that they can share as well.
Overall the anime shares a lot of things with this discussion and gets in some good shots. Things like, how far is science going to go, should we be allowed immortality like this, etc. If you are really interested in this topic I'd definitely give it a watch, it won't disappoint.
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I agree. Some of the first chips that may be implanted into people's brains will be for the blind to circumvent their condition (particularly those with optic nerve damage - see Monash bionic eye) and to operate they must receive wireless information from their camera. If this were hacked you could force someone to see whatever you wanted to against their will.
It is unlikely that such a device would need to connect to the internet though. This solution also would not be economic in most cases of blindness.

First, people who are born blind or who were blind for at least 5-10 years would likely be unable to process visual data properly. It would require extensive amounts of reprogramming of parts of the brain that are responsible for understanding area, shapes, spacial reasoning and even some linguistic parts of the brain, not to mention the extensive amount of new stimuli overloading the brain. This technology would not benefit people in this position, so blindness would still exist for these individuals. This is why accessibility is so important - blindness will not be eradicated until the last blind individual dies.

In some causes of blindness, such as leber's congenital amaurosis, it would probably be more economic to fix the retina as opposed to replacing the entire eye and rewiring it to the brain with electronics. This is also true for people with other deformations of the eye, such as non-functioning lenses, blood vessels, corneas or irises.

Some cases of blindness are caused by impact or cancer of the brain - the back of your brain is responsible for understanding visual stimuli and thus if it is damaged it can affect eyesight. In order to restore eyesight in these individuals, you would need to build a chip that restores that functionality in the brain (or cause the brain to naturally regain this function through stem cells or something crazy like that).

I could see bionic eyes greatly helping people with severe glaucoma, or those born without eyes, but prevention techniques will probably outperform such a drastic measure in terms of economy - these will likely be used on people who currently have some vision but are visually impaired - once this demographic is eliminated, the economy of such a solution would fade considerably. Finding treatment for glaucoma early which reduces or eliminates eye pressure problems would completely obscure the need for such eyes for those patients. Your idea of bionic eyes would probably be most useful to people who lost their eyes in an accident, cancer, or were not born with them. Finally, such a creation would not need to be connected to a network in any way, excluding the optic nerve or brain itself. Why build something with wifi, which takes quite a bit of energy to do, when it doesn't serve a purpose?

Yep, I sure know a lot about blindness. Being on speaking terms with 20 of them and having an ex be one too kind of teaches you a lot of things.

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People are concentrating pretty hard on the "chip in head" part, but there are other aspects, too. Genetic engineering and manipulation (possibly even on adults), certain kinds of medicine or drugs, there are other ways we can change ourselves. There's also the idea that we can make certain kinds of implants that don't require certain compounds, like metal. And we might be able to make removable implants for certain things, too.
I wonder if there will ever be a point in which our machine "replacements" are better than the original, and if so will people choose to replace that part of their body with the machine part? We've already got pretty functional prosthetic hands, for instance. If we created hands that were more precise than our fingers, faster, stronger, will people want to replace their own hands with the "better" prosthetics?

It seems farfetched to me, but I'm sure we do plenty of things now that seem farfetched from the viewpoint of even 50 years ago.


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I wonder if there will ever be a point in which our machine "replacements" are better than the original, and if so will people choose to replace that part of their body with the machine part? We've already got pretty functional prosthetic hands, for instance. If we created hands that were more precise than our fingers, faster, stronger, will people want to replace their own hands with the "better" prosthetics?

It seems farfetched to me, but I'm sure we do plenty of things now that seem farfetched from the viewpoint of even 50 years ago.
This concept isn't actually that far away, especially when it comes to war. If you could replace certain body parts that would in turn make you bigger, stronger, and faster then your enemy in which it would give you an advantage in a warzone, I'd see no reason why soldiers wouldn't do it besides maybe, the humane aspect behind it.
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It is unlikely that such a device would need to connect to the internet though. This solution also would not be economic in most cases of blindness.

First, people who are born blind or who were blind for at least 5-10 years would likely be unable to process visual data properly. It would require extensive amounts of reprogramming of parts of the brain that are responsible for understanding area, shapes, spacial reasoning and even some linguistic parts of the brain, not to mention the extensive amount of new stimuli overloading the brain. This technology would not benefit people in this position, so blindness would still exist for these individuals. This is why accessibility is so important - blindness will not be eradicated until the last blind individual dies.

In some causes of blindness, such as leber's congenital amaurosis, it would probably be more economic to fix the retina as opposed to replacing the entire eye and rewiring it to the brain with electronics. This is also true for people with other deformations of the eye, such as non-functioning lenses, blood vessels, corneas or irises.

Some cases of blindness are caused by impact or cancer of the brain - the back of your brain is responsible for understanding visual stimuli and thus if it is damaged it can affect eyesight. In order to restore eyesight in these individuals, you would need to build a chip that restores that functionality in the brain (or cause the brain to naturally regain this function through stem cells or something crazy like that).

I could see bionic eyes greatly helping people with severe glaucoma, or those born without eyes, but prevention techniques will probably outperform such a drastic measure in terms of economy - these will likely be used on people who currently have some vision but are visually impaired - once this demographic is eliminated, the economy of such a solution would fade considerably. Finding treatment for glaucoma early which reduces or eliminates eye pressure problems would completely obscure the need for such eyes for those patients. Your idea of bionic eyes would probably be most useful to people who lost their eyes in an accident, cancer, or were not born with them. Finally, such a creation would not need to be connected to a network in any way, excluding the optic nerve or brain itself. Why build something with wifi, which takes quite a bit of energy to do, when it doesn't serve a purpose?

Yep, I sure know a lot about blindness. Being on speaking terms with 20 of them and having an ex be one too kind of teaches you a lot of things.
You sure do know a lot about blindness!

I'm going to focus on the point you make about network connection. No, the chip would not be connected to the Internet. However, unless you want hard wires protruding from your head the visual data must be sent wirelessly. This means that the signal could be hijacked. It would require proximity to the victim but it's definitely not impossible to do.

I also don't agree with your conclusion that the brain would be unable to process the visual information if someone has been blind for 5-10 years. Considering the success of bionic ears for the deaf I would expect the brain to be equally capable of processing the visual information. It might take getting used to but I wouldn't exclude that possibility.

Also, out of curiosity, how does one repair the retina? I know of retinal detachment surgery, is that what you're talking about? In that case I thought that was a preventative procedure, but I could easily be wrong.

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14.3 Years

I also don't agree with your conclusion that the brain would be unable to process the visual information if someone has been blind for 5-10 years. Considering the success of bionic ears for the deaf I would expect the brain to be equally capable of processing the visual information. It might take getting used to but I wouldn't exclude that possibility.
I think the difference is the level of training and learning required. Maybe in the case of 5-10 years it is possible. I think I overshot my estimate. But those born blind have such a steep learning curve that it's probably impossible to accommodate for that much stimulus - many people I know born that way or lost it at an early age have stated that they do not want to see, due to being unfamiliar with such a thing. Imagine an entirely new sense that dominates your consciousness. Imagine being able to "feel" all these new things without knowing what it means. That's a big thing that a lot of sighted folk do not understand.

Also, out of curiosity, how does one repair the retina? I know of retinal detachment surgery, is that what you're talking about? In that case I thought that was a preventative procedure, but I could easily be wrong.
I'm personally not sure but I do think I recall that retinal replacement is a thing. It won't fix many forms of blindness but it will fix some forms.

Tek

Age 33
Male
Kansas City
Seen 2 Days Ago
Posted May 1st, 2020
939 posts
9.6 Years
From what I can tell, evolution has been a basically unconscious process - until the emergence of self-reflective thought in the human being.


Honestly, the whole species is deluded in thinking that we come into this world that doesn't give a damn about us, and that we've gotta push it around and bend it to our will. We grow out of the world. And if the world grew sentient beings, who can evolve consciously, then such beings ought to be in charge of their evolution!


I think we suffer from false humility in thinking that we shouldn't take conscious steps to evolve as a species. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's irresponsible not to do so, though we ought to be fairly certain that we're acting with the best information available.