Typing Balance

Started by PumpJack October 4th, 2014 8:43 PM
  • 1464 views
  • 23 replies

PumpJack

Gentleman Thug

Male
Discworld
Seen January 19th, 2016
Posted January 1st, 2016
327 posts
9.6 Years
First off, I'd just like to let you folks know that I'm not a huge competitive battler.

But I've been with the series since it first started, and sometimes I feel like some of the types simply got shafted, and some type combos just simply end up being so terrible that otherwise great Pokémon are rendered practically unusable.

So, I ask you this.

Are you happy with the type matchups? If not, what changes would you like to make?


I ask from both gameplay (well- mainly gameplay) and a logical perspective.

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 5 Hours Ago
Posted 5 Hours Ago
15,645 posts
9.5 Years
Bug type needs some love. It's resisted by 7 types, far more than any other type in the game, and what it's super-effective against is already covered by more commonly used/possibly better types (Dark is covered by Fighting, Psychic by Dark, and Grass by Fire).

On the other hand, I never understood why Rock doesn't resist Electric or Bug, or why Bug isn't weak to Ice.

Also, Steel should regain it's resistance to Ghost. Ghost is ridiculous now.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Megan

She/Her, It/Its
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 2 Hours Ago
17,824 posts
10.3 Years
Every time I see someone using a Grass move against an Ice type Pokemon, I just think: "Oh well, luckily it resists that. Nevermind, Ice only resists itself."

While GF tried to fix type resistances in Gen 6, I think they not only overlooked Ice types, but also made it worse by adding a defensive Ice type Pokemon. It has so many weaknesses and only one resistance, which it can't even use as an advantage, because most Ice attacks are special and its Special Defence just sucks. So much wasted potential...
Moderator of Previous Generations, Forum Games and VPP
You got a thing!

Hiatus

Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted July 24th, 2021
12,283 posts
10.8 Years
Some Pokémon types have more resistance and immunity against others and some have less, which accordingly leads them to gaining either an advantage or disadvantage. This, from a glance, doesn't exactly seem too balanced. Though, when you go in-depth, it winds up to be sort of a different story.

There are indeed certain types out there that have more resistances than normal (one example would be steel, which is not very effective to a total of ten types, including normal, grass, ice, psychic, flying, and more; another is dragon, which isn't too effective against water, grass, fire, and other types of the like, which are quite common whether it be in-game or competitive), but one thing that makes up for it is the lack of Pokémon amount these groups hold. Even if certain Pokémon are categorized here, they're bound to have another type with them, which, in the end, reduces the number of resistance and immunity they might possibly carry.

I suppose they sort of do pay attention to these kind of detail when introducing new Pokémon (even if it might not seem as such), so that things remain balanced as much as possible.
Seen January 1st, 2023
Posted March 23rd, 2022
3,316 posts
9.2 Years
imo ice is currently the most shafted type. When it comes to resisting they only resist themselves which makes little sense to me. I find most of them on top of that to be pretty frail in the defensive stats (mainly defense). So it's like a double blow. Not to mention they are weak to very commonly used types... these types primarily having high attack stats. Also offensively there are some physical ice types I really love, but sadly there are few physical ice type moves and they either have low to semi decent power with some other kind of draw back to the move or not a 100% accuracy.
Age 35
Male
Dream World
Seen December 21st, 2016
Posted October 8th, 2016
1,638 posts
10.8 Years
Problem is that Ice is great offensively but there's no incentive to using Ice STAB. Water types can learn Ice moves and have better resistances.

However, there was a time when, for a Water-type, being part Ice was a blessing, since there were few Rock and Fighting moves.


Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, the day Pokémon pulled a Dallas and jumped the shark.

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu

Age 30
Male
California
Seen February 16th, 2021
Posted May 16th, 2019
9,528 posts
10.5 Years
The three elemental types (Fire, Electric, and Ice) and Rock types are the only ones screwed over. Their moves are some of the best moves, but the Pokemon associated with those types are low tiers (for the most part) due to either poor stats, poor move pools, or both. What they have in common is being weak to the most common types - Ground and Water - and the most common moves - Fighting and Rock - in the metagame. So far, Fire types suffer the least of the four in Gen VI with the nerf of Stealth Rocks and Dragon types, who once outclassed them for also learning Fire moves, followed by Electric types, who no longer get paralyzed and its new members learning Grass Knot for Ground coverage.

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 5 Hours Ago
Posted 5 Hours Ago
15,645 posts
9.5 Years
Stealth Rock....wasn't nerfed in Gen 6, though I wish it was. If you mean how Defog suddenly became a viable move, I wouldn't really call that a nerf; SR is still going strong like it has been since it was introduced despite Defog being a thing now.

Though I do agree that Ice has gotten the short stick for a while now.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Harmonious Fusion

over the rainbow, there's a glorious sight

Age 28
Female
Washington
Seen January 22nd, 2023
Posted January 31st, 2017
360 posts
10.9 Years
At least pre-Gen VI, Bug/Poison was an utterly terrible type combination. Aside from so many Pokemon of that typing being too weak to bother with and/or getting shallow movepools, neither Bug nor Poison by themselves were the most efficient types in sole terms of coverage. Bug was good against Psychic and Dark, sure, but Dark, Ghost, and Fighting were all much more popular types for those roles. And why use Poison to kill Grass when Ice and Fire are so much more satisfying, and have more roles to play? I always found myself regretting using Bug/Poison Pokemon because of some combination of those factors.

I don't know whether the introduction of Fairy has changed anything, though, or to what degree.

Oryx

CoquettishCat

Age 30
Female
Seen January 30th, 2015
Posted December 27th, 2014
13,184 posts
12.2 Years
Every time I see someone using a Grass move against an Ice type Pokemon, I just think: "Oh well, luckily it resists that. Nevermind, Ice only resists itself."

While GF tried to fix type resistances in Gen 6, I think they not only overlooked Ice types, but also made it worse by adding a defensive Ice type Pokemon. It has so many weaknesses and only one resistance, which it can't even use as an advantage, because most Ice attacks are special and its Special Defence just sucks. So much wasted potential...
So do you think ice types just can't be defensive at all, or that they can work as defenders as long as their defense is against special attacks?


Theme * Pair * VM * PM

Not all men...

Are all men stupid?

That's right.

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu

Age 30
Male
California
Seen February 16th, 2021
Posted May 16th, 2019
9,528 posts
10.5 Years
Stealth Rock....wasn't nerfed in Gen 6, though I wish it was. If you mean how Defog suddenly became a viable move, I wouldn't really call that a nerf; SR is still going strong like it has been since it was introduced despite Defog being a thing now.
Well yeah, that's what I meant. Because of Defog's major buff this gen, Steath Rock is much easier to deal with so long as the Flying type who knows the move is your favorite, since that's what Johto E4 member Karen wants us to do.
Age 35
Male
Dream World
Seen December 21st, 2016
Posted October 8th, 2016
1,638 posts
10.8 Years
At least pre-Gen VI, Bug/Poison was an utterly terrible type combination. Aside from so many Pokemon of that typing being too weak to bother with and/or getting shallow movepools, neither Bug nor Poison by themselves were the most efficient types in sole terms of coverage. Bug was good against Psychic and Dark, sure, but Dark, Ghost, and Fighting were all much more popular types for those roles. And why use Poison to kill Grass when Ice and Fire are so much more satisfying, and have more roles to play? I always found myself regretting using Bug/Poison Pokemon because of some combination of those factors.

I don't know whether the introduction of Fairy has changed anything, though, or to what degree.
Bug/Poison had redundant coverage prior to 6th gen.

TBH with you the best Bug/Poison Pokémon is by far Scolipede, and she got a huge boost this gen because she has more Attack and a new ability that vastly improves her viability.

About Stealth Rock, I wish it was nerfed because Spikes are useless compared to it.


Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, the day Pokémon pulled a Dallas and jumped the shark.

Megan

She/Her, It/Its
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 2 Hours Ago
17,824 posts
10.3 Years
So do you think ice types just can't be defensive at all, or that they can work as defenders as long as their defense is against special attacks?
Ice types need a lot of team support to work as walls, because you need something that covers it's weaknesses (which Ice has a lot more than most other types). Making an Ice type wall work takes more effort than using another wall that outclasses it in many ways (typing, movepool, overall stats).

That's one of the reasons, why Regice (which is a special wall) doesn't get too much usage. Bad defensive typing+crappy movepool (no recovery move besides Rest), at least Avalugg has Recover, but that doesn't take his low SpD away.

I suppose it all comes down to a simple question: Is it possible for an Ice type Pokemon to exist, that is a wall and does its job great (something that's worth being in OU)?
Sadly that's a question I can't give you an answer for, because I'm terrible at Theorymoning...
Moderator of Previous Generations, Forum Games and VPP
You got a thing!

Pinkie-Dawn

Vampire Waifu

Age 30
Male
California
Seen February 16th, 2021
Posted May 16th, 2019
9,528 posts
10.5 Years
I suppose it all comes down to a simple question: Is it possible for an Ice type Pokemon to exist, that is a wall and does its job great (something that's worth being in OU)?
Sadly that's a question I can't give you an answer for, because I'm terrible at Theorymoning...
It's possible if an Ice type Pokemon has one of the dominant types in the OU metagame as its secondary type, like Steel for example. It worked for Fire types prior to Gen VI, which is why I wish there were more Pokemon in OU for diversity and less-redicule to low-tier Pokemon.

Harmonious Fusion

over the rainbow, there's a glorious sight

Age 28
Female
Washington
Seen January 22nd, 2023
Posted January 31st, 2017
360 posts
10.9 Years
Bug/Poison had redundant coverage prior to 6th gen.

TBH with you the best Bug/Poison Pokémon is by far Scolipede, and she got a huge boost this gen because she has more Attack and a new ability that vastly improves her viability.

About Stealth Rock, I wish it was nerfed because Spikes are useless compared to it.
I did use a Scolipede for most of my White playthrough, and my impressions were essentially that he was a good, strong Pokemon, but he rarely got a chance to shine because my other team members had superior coverage.

Hiatus

Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted July 24th, 2021
12,283 posts
10.8 Years
If you throw a punch or kick at some light form of metal, they will likely get bent, which does show that some of them don't exactly resist. Though, as far as heavier ones are concerned, it's sort of a different story. Pokémon that do have heavy metal attached to their body generally seem to have higher defenses (Metagross and Brongzong, for example), which allows them to withstand more attacks all together, whether it be fighting-type or not.
Age 35
Male
Dream World
Seen December 21st, 2016
Posted October 8th, 2016
1,638 posts
10.8 Years
If you throw a punch or kick at some light form of metal, they will likely get bent, which does show that some of them don't exactly resist. Though, as far as heavier ones are concerned, it's sort of a different story. Pokémon that do have heavy metal attached to their body generally seem to have higher defenses (Metagross and Brongzong, for example), which allows them to withstand more attacks all together, whether it be fighting-type or not.
Thin metal sheets are actually very easy to bend. Since Fighting-type Pokémon are way stronger than people, I imagine they can dent even thicker steel.

Metagross and Bronzong are Psychic-types, so they have added resistance to Fighting, but not because of their shields being stronger. Aggron is one of the heaviest and most defensively strong Steel-types, but is 4x weak to Fighting.


Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire, the day Pokémon pulled a Dallas and jumped the shark.

Megan

She/Her, It/Its
Seen 1 Hour Ago
Posted 2 Hours Ago
17,824 posts
10.3 Years
I think Steel being weak to Fighting has to do with the romantic way how fighters are looked at. They are the strongest of the strong. They can move a truck, lift the heaviest weights and bend the strongest bars of steel with only their muscels and willpower. In its own way it makes totally sense.

And then we have Electric types who are strong against Flying. As far as I know air is a horrible electric conductor, meaning Flying types shouldn't have to worry about some electric attacks. That's only the case when they are on the ground, because that way the electricity can freely run through their body and leave it on the ground they are standing.
Moderator of Previous Generations, Forum Games and VPP
You got a thing!

PumpJack

Gentleman Thug

Male
Discworld
Seen January 19th, 2016
Posted January 1st, 2016
327 posts
9.6 Years
I think Steel being weak to Fighting has to do with the romantic way how fighters are looked at. They are the strongest of the strong. They can move a truck, lift the heaviest weights and bend the strongest bars of steel with only their muscels and willpower. In its own way it makes totally sense.

And then we have Electric types who are strong against Flying. As far as I know air is a horrible electric conductor, meaning Flying types shouldn't have to worry about some electric attacks. That's only the case when they are on the ground, because that way the electricity can freely run through their body and leave it on the ground they are standing.
While air isn't the best conductor, things in the air are more vulnerable to lightning strikes.


For myself, I never really liked how Dragon is only supereffective against themselves. Seems kinda limiting, in terms of usefulness. Only by sheer brute stats do they gain their power.

I understand the lore behind it- but it just seems a bit of a cop-out, gameplay-wise.

Ditto with the Ghost-types. With Dark types having the same coverage, and being resistant to Ghosts and immune to Psychic- enh.
Friend Code: 4742-6611-4225 - Let's trade ALL the 'mons.
Normal Safari: Loudred, Dunsparce, Smeargle.
Vivillon Pattern:
Polar


I doodle, sometimes.
Male
Seen February 19th, 2015
Posted October 20th, 2014
62 posts
9.8 Years
I think grass needs a buff. I'd say make it lose it's weakness to flying. I really never got that. What's the explanation there? Birds eat berries, but that's all I can make of it. Plants are typically strong against wind if that's what it meant. I just don't get it.

Fairy needs another weakness. Seriously. It's practically the new Dragon type. They threw logic out the window when they made it strong against dragons and weak against Steel, so just make something up. Maybe Bug. Cause they be all like "I don't believe in fairies" in their little bug voices.
P.s. My name is ironic. I almost never flame or rage.

Aeroblast

Male
Basement
Seen February 25th, 2017
Posted February 25th, 2017
4,173 posts
9.8 Years
Ice type needs a defensive boost as it's only resistent to itself while having a large host of weakeness. Maybe it could be resistent/immune to water as ice is technically water itself. Maybe it could also gain resistence to grass as well or something.

I also agree with FlamingRage in that fairy type needs a nerf; while fairy type was intended to balance dragons, in turn fairy types became overpowered itself. Bug type would work as it has plenty of types that are resistant to its attacks anyways. Ghost types also became overpowered after Steel lost resistance to ghost types so that needs to be reverted.