Modern Racism: Officer Wilson Walks Page 7

Started by Magic Christmas Lights November 25th, 2014 1:20 PM
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Yoshikko

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So where did you get this information from?
[....]

Also, when you say things like "Michael Brown was not resisting arrest, he was running away because Darren Wilson was getting his gun out after he tried to forcefully pull Michael Brown into his van " or "The official autopsy supports that this happened like why are people resisting that, it's an official autopsy." please expand on that and provide specific links and lines from official reports. Explain WHY the autopsy report supports your claim. Point out the specific lines/witnesses/pages in the grand jury report where it was said that Brown was not resisting arrest. Then maybe we can start getting somewhere.

And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm getting after you in particular, I don't mean it to be like that. I mean it more as a general thing, because lots of people are like that.
Do you have a source for that?
I hadn't heard that. How many witnesses were there that said this?

I also hadn't heard this.

Up to this point, the only thing I've chosen to believe is that, in light of a lack of evidence, I would presume innocence; this is something I always do regardless of who is on trial. If the things you're saying are true, that's significant evidence in the other direction, but I hadn't heard of either of these things, possibly because I haven't followed it all that closely. Is there a major news source that has reported these things? If so, a link would be helpful.

[....]
I will now try to source everything that I've pointed out as best as I can. I didn't want to quote everything because it would be too long, so I just left in the parts that are related to the links/sources. Also @ Zekrom, I didn't really mean it in that way, I just feel like most people aren't willing to change their view on it even if they would be shown hard evidence, but I can't make assumptions I guess.

Officer Wilson did not know about a robbery/it wasn't reported/it was unrelated/it was not Michael Brown
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/ferguson-chief-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/
http://newsone.com/3045219/ferguson-police-chief-admits-mike-brown-shooting-not-related-to-robbery/
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/ferguson-store-owner-says-he-doesnt-believe-thats-mike-brown-on-surveillance-video/

The autopsy report results, and evidence that supports Michael Brown running away
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=1
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322540/-Autopsy-suggests-Mike-Brown-had-his-arms-in-surrender-position-when-Darren-Wilson-killed-him

Distance from the van where he was killed, and the police lying about it (also supports that he was running away)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/20/1346374/-BREAKING-VIDEO-Police-Lied-Mike-Brown-was-killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

The eyewitness accounts in video's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRbiEZ_vIOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GEmBhV8RB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7tTsEYE3Ms

Important videos to watch regarding the grand jury's decision and more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzcrSzirrs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MlEhoCIFwc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brLZXj2xxis

Darren Wilson's "injuries" proposed as "evidence" (does this really need elaboration? Darren Wilson claims that Michael Brown was punching him multiple times in the face and he said himself that he thought another punch could have been fatal)
http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/24/7279311/ferguson-darren-wilson-injuries

There are a lot of masterposts on the internet that compile facts and evidence, I obviously can't post them all. Darren Wilson also has a history as a bad officer, I didn't link anything to that because it's not really related to the points I was trying to make, but there is a lot of information on the internet about that as well.

Isn't running away from police resisting arrest?
Also it is literally against the law to shoot someone who is running so.. I think one of the video's I posted supports that as well.

Oh also, did I mention the eyewitnesses being killed by police now??
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/deandrejoshua.asp
http://www.sott.net/article/289631-DeAndre-Joshua-murdered-fits-profile-of-eye-witness-to-Michael-Brown-shooting
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1695060 (the link to the actual article itself doesn't work, but this will do)

SORRY if I seem aggressive or whatever in my posts, I don't mean to come off that way, I'm just very passionate about this.

Corvus of the Black Night

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Actually, you never addressed my question. You claimed,

Actually the problem here is racism and stems from the fact that WHITE people can shoot up a theatre and bomb a city and still be taken in ALIVE without a single scratch on them, but when a black person allegedly robs a store he deserved to be murdered by police. And Darren Wilson admitted that he didn't even know anything of a robbery and he was stopping Michael Brown and his friend for jaywalking.
Seriously, I dare you to actually try this. See if you get away with it. Because let me tell you something, yes, what happened to Brown may have been fueled by racism (it could have also been fueled by other forms of bigotry as well, but nobody involved seems interested in this possibility for some reason) but you're outright claiming things that are outright false.

I have no problem with people being upset over Brown's death, it makes complete sense why people would be upset and conclusions can be drawn on either side. However, the problem I have with statements like this is that you are pulling implications out of nowhere which have yet to actually be proven true. You can't just claims something that ridiculous when there are many cases, including your examples to prove this claim incorrect. You're basically saying that white people are somehow immune to the law, which is completely untrue. Again, I dare you to actually try it instead of continuing to perpetuate this bluff that white people can get away with anything.

Perhaps they were taken in alive because of mere circumstance. Frankly, if the young man did bolt towards the officer, he put himself in a situation that he could have died. If he didn't, he still would have had to deal with the law, just as a petty thief instead of an assault charge.

In fact, if you want to actually address the problem here, it's not the law's fault, since it is written in (mostly) egalitarian words, it's the people who lay down the law who manipulate it to be against people of a certain race. But in my opinion, the concept of "race crimes" only adds fuel to that fire. If Brown was killed because the officer hated poor people instead of black people, would it still have been as much of a crime?

P.S. for the love of god can people stop *****ing about "deserving" here? I think we can all agree that nobody "deserved" to die here. It serves no purpose other than to load questions and presume guilt against people who disagree with people in this thread. The question is not whether or not he "deserved it", it's whether or not the officer's actions were justified.

Yoshikko

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Actually, you never addressed my question. You claimed,

[...]
However, the problem I have with statements like this is that you are pulling implications out of nowhere which have yet to actually be proven true. You can't just claims something that ridiculous when there are many cases, including your examples to prove this claim incorrect. You're basically saying that white people are somehow immune to the law, which is completely untrue. Again, I dare you to actually try it instead of continuing to perpetuate this bluff that white people can get away with anything.

Perhaps they were taken in alive because of mere circumstance. Frankly, if the young man did bolt towards the officer, he put himself in a situation that he could have died. If he didn't, he still would have had to deal with the law, just as a petty thief instead of an assault charge.

In fact, if you want to actually address the problem here, it's not the law's fault, since it is written in (mostly) egalitarian words, it's the people who lay down the law who manipulate it to be against people of a certain race. But in my opinion, the concept of "race crimes" only adds fuel to that fire. If Brown was killed because the officer hated poor people instead of black people, would it still have been as much of a crime?
I don't.. get your point here, do I have to prove to you that one of the boston bombers is still alive? Or the guy that shot up a theatre and killed dozens of people? The bomber was featured on the cover of Rolling Stone... like, I don't understand what you're getting at. If by law someone who kills people can be taken into custody alive, then a boy who allegedly robbed a store (disproven) and runs towards an officer (disproven) can be too. Also, I want to ask you to not reply to my posts anymore if you're just going to ignore all the links I've put there. "just as a petty thief instead of an assault charge." I put enough evidence in my post that disproves that. Read first please.

pokecole

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The Fergunson case was pretty clear. The young delinquent, (black, white, latino, doesn't matter) went for the officer's gun and he got shot. You can't try to disarm an officer, in fact, you can't try to disarm anyone. You're going to get shot 9/10 times. If Michael Brown had succesfully disarmed the officer, what do you think he was planing to do? The thing I don't understand is why Wilson got out like a God and didn't face at least some kind of penalty-electronic shackles perhaps?

Now, the '' I Can't Breath " case was Discusting. He killed that man with his bare hands. That officer should be punished with all the force of the law.
What evidence do you have that supports him attempting to disarm the officer? I for one didn't see any evidence that supported that.

I agree that the law should punish the officer in the "I Can't Breathe" case.
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What evidence do you have that supports him attempting to disarm the officer? I for one didn't see any evidence that supported that.

I agree that the law should punish the officer in the "I Can't Breathe" case.
Officer Wilson testified to the grand jury that the two struggled over his service weapon while he was still in his police vehicle, and that later, after a brief chase, he fired the fatal shots at Mr. Brown because the teenager was coming toward him in a threatening way.
- nytimes

Whether is true or not, the officer was clearly injured.
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Yoshikko

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- nytimes

Whether is true or not, the officer was clearly injured.
This is what I mean though, did you actually take a look at the pictures I linked? What injury are you talking about? The tan line in his neck?? Where is the injury? Point it out to me, please. That redness on his cheek looks more like a sunburn or the aftermath of acne. Does that look like he was punched in the face? Clearly injured....

Nah

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Thank you so much for posting these. This is so much better than the thought of reading that super long grand jury report. =)


@thing about Wilson's injuries: Darren Wilson doesn't look like he suffered any injuries. The photos make that clear.
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Uhh no he wasn't:

Spoiler:
This is what I mean though, did you actually take a look at the pictures I linked? What injury are you talking about? The tan line in his neck?? Where is the injury? Point it out to me, please. That redness on his cheek looks more like a sunburn or the aftermath of acne. Does that look like he was punched in the face? Clearly injured....


I only gave my opinion. Why so agressive?

The side with the "Acne problem" is swollen. He didn't get hit with a devastating right hand to the jaw. But it is certain that some kind of physical altercation happened.
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obZen

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OK so, Eric Garner was killed about 10 minutes away from my house.
His death was ruled a homicide, which does not prove motive, but is the only reason why it even went to trial.
The officer was not indicted.

NYC riots erupted, but not many on Staten Island, because protestors literally couldn't get here x_x
Here's a link to the video, along with extended footage.

The Eric Garner case is a much less talked about one than the one in Ferguson, MO. However, it still begs the questions raised in this thread.

In this case, the EMTs basically did absolutely nothing. The cop who took him down did so without instruction. Look at the top-ranked officer on the left of the initial video; the look on his face says it all. The takedown should not have happened.
A cop who shouldn't even have made the NYPD made a rash decision.

I read this article which basicaly outlines the problems with NYC cops.
They are basically trained to bust balls for stupid things, like untaxed cigarettes or pulling over young kids because haha screw them right?
Yet, when something bad actually happens, they act rash and things like the Garner case happen.

Also, like it or not, a big black man is scary to a majority of white people, especally on Staten Island. The mother of Garner dismisses racial cases, but I disagree. If this was me, I would not have been taken dow in the same situation. If I was 280 lbs with my same height, I would have been stiff-armed into a handcuff position, not dragged down violently. Just some food for thought: Would YOU have been dragged down?


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People who say that the colour of the cop and the victim doesn't matter are naive.


African American Cop shoots a White or Black person nothing would have come from it.
White American Cop shoots a white person nothing would have come from it

Racism, racism everywhere. More like the media needed a juicy news scoop to pump into everyone's faces and a white cop shooting an African American was just that juicy scoop they wanted.

Being an Englishman I don't all that much take interest in what happens in America but I have to say that it is a rather similar case to the Mark Duggan incident in 2011, where he was being arrested for planning an attack and tried to pull a handgun on police and he was shot in the chest which resulted in him dying, at no point after this was the police officer who shot him investigated but as usual the media picks up on it and brands it as "black male shot by police". And ofc this led to mass riots in London and as every person who live in the UK knows the riots were actually not even about Mark Duggan but were used as an excuse to go looting, people who didn't even know Mark Duggan set up events on "BBM or Blackberry messenger" a popular mobile phone texting feature for the blackberry phone. How did the police respond to these riots? With live ammo and tear gas? Nope. They used Riot shields to force the rioters back and anyone who strayed too near were either shot with a water cannon and people who were violent were shot at with RUBBER BULLETS.

Anyway back to this story, like people mentioned if the kid tried to disarm the police officer what do you think he would have done? Told the cop to get on the ground and then run? Nah he would have put a bullet in the cop. If the actions the police officer took were ones that are issued to by the state (I don't know what the dos and don'ts are for America) then the police officer had every right to shoot him. If a police officer feels there life or anyone elses life is in danger they should have every right to shoot the person causing that danger, someone who looks as if they may be pulling a gun or attempting to take a police officers gun are stupid, if a police officer wants to talk to you regardless of either they believe you to be a suspect or not, under no circumstance should you give them the suspicion you may be carrying a weapon.

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I will now try to source everything that I've pointed out as best as I can. I didn't want to quote everything because it would be too long, so I just left in the parts that are related to the links/sources. Also @ Zekrom, I didn't really mean it in that way, I just feel like most people aren't willing to change their view on it even if they would be shown hard evidence, but I can't make assumptions I guess.

Officer Wilson did not know about a robbery/it wasn't reported/it was unrelated/it was not Michael Brown
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322560/-Ferguson-Store-Owner-Says-NO-ONE-From-His-Store-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft
http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/15/ferguson-chief-officer-didnt-know-about-robbery/14124259/
http://newsone.com/3045219/ferguson-police-chief-admits-mike-brown-shooting-not-related-to-robbery/
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/ferguson-store-owner-says-he-doesnt-believe-thats-mike-brown-on-surveillance-video/

The autopsy report results, and evidence that supports Michael Brown running away
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=1
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1322540/-Autopsy-suggests-Mike-Brown-had-his-arms-in-surrender-position-when-Darren-Wilson-killed-him

Distance from the van where he was killed, and the police lying about it (also supports that he was running away)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/20/1346374/-BREAKING-VIDEO-Police-Lied-Mike-Brown-was-killed-148-feet-away-from-Darren-Wilson-s-SUV

The eyewitness accounts in video's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRbiEZ_vIOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GEmBhV8RB4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7tTsEYE3Ms

Important videos to watch regarding the grand jury's decision and more
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzcrSzirrs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MlEhoCIFwc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brLZXj2xxis

Darren Wilson's "injuries" proposed as "evidence" (does this really need elaboration? Darren Wilson claims that Michael Brown was punching him multiple times in the face and he said himself that he thought another punch could have been fatal)
http://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/11/24/7279311/ferguson-darren-wilson-injuries

There are a lot of masterposts on the internet that compile facts and evidence, I obviously can't post them all. Darren Wilson also has a history as a bad officer, I didn't link anything to that because it's not really related to the points I was trying to make, but there is a lot of information on the internet about that as well.


Also it is literally against the law to shoot someone who is running so.. I think one of the video's I posted supports that as well.

Oh also, did I mention the eyewitnesses being killed by police now??
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/deandrejoshua.asp
http://www.sott.net/article/289631-DeAndre-Joshua-murdered-fits-profile-of-eye-witness-to-Michael-Brown-shooting
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1695060 (the link to the actual article itself doesn't work, but this will do)

SORRY if I seem aggressive or whatever in my posts, I don't mean to come off that way, I'm just very passionate about this.
That's a lot of stuff I wasn't aware of. I'll concede that it sounds more damning than I was led to believe based on my loose following of it.

That said, I still don't have any idea what the guy's motive might have been if he did what he's accused of. I don't buy that it was simply about race based on what you've linked, it almost sounds like something else might have been going on that hasn't been reported, like for instance that Officer Wilson did something bad that he didn't want getting out and Brown was a witness to it. Also, I don't think that this is a representative case and I don't believe that most issues with police have much to do with race aside from racial profiling. I honestly believe most cops are good people who want to protect others but sometimes make mistakes.
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Yoshikko

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That's a lot of stuff I wasn't aware of. I'll concede that it sounds more damning than I was led to believe based on my loose following of it.

That said, I still don't have any idea what the guy's motive might have been if he did what he's accused of. I don't buy that it was simply about race based on what you've linked, it almost sounds like something else might have been going on that hasn't been reported. Also, I don't think that this is a representative case and I don't believe that most issues with police have much to do with race aside from racial profiling. I honestly believe most cops are good people who want to protect others but sometimes make mistakes.
The point is he should be convicted, like any other person would be if they did the same thing under the same circumstances. But with a grand jury that exists out of 9 white people and only 3 black people, when the maximum amount of votes needed for indictment is 9 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366370100/grand-jury-reaches-decision-in-michael-brown-case) he might not even get a trial. It's insane to me. They won't even convict him for manslaughter..

Moreover, the claim on Darren Wilson's side that Michael Brown grabbed his gun and tried to take it from him literally hasn't been proven. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2851608/Darren-Wilson-s-gun-NOT-tested-Michael-Brown-s-fingerprints-officer-able-wash-blood-hands-Probe-s-errors-exposed-grand-jury-files.html)

pokecole

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- nytimes

Whether is true or not, the officer was clearly injured.
That's the equivalent of hearsay. Not really evidence if you ask me, as they can't prove it what-so-ever.
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imo it's only racist when people make it racist.

I'm not saying what the officer was doing was right but American police sure do love to shoot pets, children, the elderly and anyone who decides to buy milk. The police in Ferguson shot 2 FBI agents for crying out loud. Obviously muh freedoms isn't working anymore.

Also Obama putting a known corrupt cp in charge of fixing the police brutality that plagues america top kek
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I am impressed this thread has so many replies. I left for a little bit and didn't keep up with it. I see that some people believe that race doesn't enter into things like this and that the motivations behind these kinds of things are much more complicated. Research indicates that race really does play into it, even Blacks show a bias towards shooting other Blacks in a shooting simulation:
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2002-08203-006

People are more likely to shoot others that are not their own race if they believe the world is dangerous, which is a common belief of police officers:
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/38/10/1358.abstract

Black males are particularly at risk of this effect (fun fact: I actually did research with one of the authors on this paper! he is a swell guy):
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/37/9/1274.abstract

Apologies to anyone here not using a university VPN or who otherwise doesn't subscribe to these journals (probably everyone); but I think the abstracts probably speak for themselves. If anyone really wants to see any of these articles in their full, PM me or respond here and I can upload them somewhere.

Yoshikko

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imo it's only racist when people make it racist.

I'm not saying what the officer was doing was right but [...]
That's basically the same as people saying that racism will be over if we just stop talking about it. You cannot "make" something racist. If it's racist then it's racist, what you do or how you talk about it doesn't change it somehow? People are not just imagining that this is racist.

Kanzler

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That's basically the same as people saying that racism will be over if we just stop talking about it. You cannot "make" something racist. If it's racist then it's racist, what you do or how you talk about it doesn't change it somehow? People are not just imagining that this is racist.
Not exactly. Again, there's a mean between two extremes. Racism won't be over if we just stop talking about it, but you can make something racialized when you focus on the racial disparity between two parties to the extent that you start conjecturing then believing that race or racist views was the cause of whatever event when it didn't exist or was marginal in the first place.

Let's say I make fun of my black friend. Was this racially motivated, just because he's black? Given the one single statement I made you couldn't possibly make that kind of inference either way. But if a biased conclusion is made in the absence of information, that's when you've racialized something unnecessarily.

And again, it's not about total racialization vs. no racialization at all. Again, it's not just two extremes. Of course there is a racial character to the Ferguson case, what with the differential representation of the population vs. the jury or the police force. Policing in America has racial character - your race determines how the system affects you. I'm Chinese. Nobody's ever going to frisk me. That policing affects people of different races differentially isn't controversial. However, one can over-racialize when they start making conjectures into whether Wilson was racially chauvinist and start throwing about epithets accusing him of being racist. Then, something is "made" racist or somebody is labelled a racist when it wasn't clear in the first place (and for people I'd advocate giving them the benefit of the doubt).

The trouble is that people (being what they are) don't really filter this information critically, and start propagating these unsubstantiated views. Since views concerning race can be very subjective, nobody's views can be "proven wrong" but these views weren't standing on much ground to begin with. And in this way things can be unnecessarily racialized and there's nothing you can really do about it except not racialize in the first place.

Yoshikko

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Not exactly. Again, there's a mean between two extremes. Racism won't be over if we just stop talking about it, but you can make something racialized when you focus on the racial disparity between two parties to the extent that you start conjecturing then believing that race or racist views was the cause of whatever event when it didn't exist or was marginal in the first place.

Let's say I make fun of my black friend. Was this racially motivated, just because he's black? Given the one single statement I made you couldn't possibly make that kind of inference either way. But if a biased conclusion is made in the absence of information, that's when you've racialized something unnecessarily.

And again, it's not about total racialization vs. no racialization at all. Again, it's not just two extremes. Of course there is a racial character to the Ferguson case, what with the differential representation of the population vs. the jury or the police force. Policing in America has racial character - your race determines how the system affects you. I'm Chinese. Nobody's ever going to frisk me. That policing affects people of different races differentially isn't controversial. However, one can over-racialize when they start making conjectures into whether Wilson was racially chauvinist and start throwing about epithets accusing him of being racist. Then, something is "made" racist or somebody is labelled a racist when it wasn't clear in the first place (and for people I'd advocate giving them the benefit of the doubt).

The trouble is that people (being what they are) don't really filter this information critically, and start propagating these unsubstantiated views. Since views concerning race can be very subjective, nobody's views can be "proven wrong" but these views weren't standing on much ground to begin with. And in this way things can be unnecessarily racialized and there's nothing you can really do about it except not racialize in the first place.
You're treating this like an isolated incident which it isn't. A better analogy would be you always only making fun of your black friend out of all your white friends, and when he confronts you about it you tell him something like "oh it's just something I do with friends". You could give him a million of reasons why it wouldn't be racist but he and many others would know better.

Also, you saying all this stuff about two extremes and that it's essentially somewhere in the middle - it's bullcrap sorry. Something can not be "just a little bit racist but not all the way". It's either racist or it isn't. There is no 10% racist.

No, the problem is really that people look at this as an isolated incident.

Kanzler

naughty biscotti

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Toronto
Seen April 22nd, 2022
Posted March 11th, 2022
5,957 posts
14.8 Years
You're treating this like an isolated incident which it isn't. A better analogy would be you always only making fun of your black friend out of all your white friends, and when he confronts you about it you tell him something like "oh it's just something I do with friends". You could give him a million of reasons why it wouldn't be racist but he and many others would know better.

Also, you saying all this stuff about two extremes and that it's essentially somewhere in the middle - it's bullcrap sorry. Something can not be "just a little bit racist but not all the way". It's either racist or it isn't. There is no 10% racist.

No, the problem is really that people look at this as an isolated incident.
I don't mean that Ferguson is an isolated incident at all in my previous post. Please take note of the following passage from paragraph 3:

Of course there is a racial character to the Ferguson case, what with the differential representation of the population vs. the jury or the police force. Policing in America has racial character - your race determines how the system affects you. I'm Chinese. Nobody's ever going to frisk me. That policing affects people of different races differentially isn't controversial.
The thing with my black friend is just an example to support the point that you can abstract racial character onto something that might not be racial at all. It's not an analogy for anything else.

As for the simplistic conception that things either are or aren't racist, welp because most things in the world are binary.
Seen 3 Weeks Ago
Posted January 2nd, 2021
1,549 posts
9.9 Years
That's basically the same as people saying that racism will be over if we just stop talking about it. You cannot "make" something racist. If it's racist then it's racist, what you do or how you talk about it doesn't change it somehow? People are not just imagining that this is racist.
Buddy I hope I'm not the first one to tell you that at the end of the day the only color screwing you over is greed. You could make a lot of money cashing in on the "fear of a black man".

Corvus of the Black Night

Wild Duck Pokémon

Age 30
Non-binary
With the Birds
Seen January 9th, 2015
Posted January 9th, 2015
3,416 posts
14.3 Years
goddammit livewire that post was relevant

I'd like to say that the title of this thread is a huge insult to the human race.
Eh, not really, you could write a reasonable debate on either side. The more insulting thing is how people are acting in this thread.

Ultimately I think this shows a larger problem in society. This thread honestly to someone who honestly doesn't lean either way shows that both sides have no interest in hearing the other's opinion, especially supporters. This is a problem because the more ignorant you are to the opposition, the more uneducated you are about that subject, and the more that you appear to be in frothing rage. You could be completely right in your opinion and truly be pointing out a true case of misjustice in our police system, but that doesn't matter if you are willing to ignore all counterpoints and label everyone who doesn't agree with you as a racist.

Ultimately, while the case could be clear cut (it's not, although similar cases such as Garner and the 12 year old in Cleveland are), what is definitely not clear cut is the larger social implications of such a thing. It's easy to go look at what happens in the news and have it fuel are anger against the misjustice against black people - especially when cases against other races are usually ignored or never reach national levels - but perhaps not looking at the whole picture does indeed give us a skewed picture of what's going on here. As I stated in my relevant post that was deleted above (grr), sometimes things that appear to be racism can't really be that. What racism has Detroit faced in the last 40 years that directly oppressed them, outside of dumb facebook comments? Not much, since the population is 90% black and has been run by black people for over 40 years until the current mayor was elected in early 2014. You can't really claim that because white people fled in the 60s that people who weren't even born then or were just babies then are actively oppressing them. And sure, this isn't Ferguson, but I see Ferguson following the same path itself.

It shouldn't be taken that black people are incapable of taking control of a city efficiently, it's that usually when a complete racial takeover like this happens, the city is already weak and the people who are left behind are those already living in poverty, so if corruption occurs in power, it's not very easy to counteract it.

People still blame racism though and have been for years, but they keep ignoring the actual problem to continue to feed into their narrative. Perhaps people don't want to fund the city not because it's predominantly black but because the city has shown itself incapable of managing itself for decades. Or because the city has mostly declined and shown to be a terrible investment.

Perhaps what I was trying to say is that the world isn't so black and white. Sometimes there are many factors going on and ignoring all but the most tantalizing of them means that your problems will perpetuate until you accept the existence of other possibilities. It's easier to simplify things but when things can't be that simplified you can draw some conclusions that truly don't exist.

Perhaps the most offensive thing I found in this thread was the extent that some people were willing to hide evidence to support their opinion, as shown in the quotes for this post. What's particularly irritating here is that it doesn't really answer anything since the occurrence could have still happened due to racism, and the existence of this evidence doesn't do much to actually defeat your opinion, so why hide it under the rug? It makes it sound like you aren't willing to be honest, and that's something that's plagued this discussion since day one.

I still find the motive of "Racism" a very weak limb to stand on in of itself, but whatever. I could be wrong.

So please, people, be open minded and at least listen to the opposition long enough to understand where they are coming from. I don't automatically subscribe to what opponents are saying if I listen to them. It's a way of understanding where other people are coming from, and from someone who has been very neutral on this subject (thoughts of suicide kind of make things thousands of miles away kind of irrelevant), it's very clear that this is not happening here or most other places where this subject is being discussed.
Age 31
Female
DETROIT
Seen April 5th, 2015
Posted March 6th, 2015
287 posts
10.3 Years
I'd like to say that the title of this thread is a huge insult to the human race.
???

I wanted a thread to discuss modern day racism. I used a current event to illustrate the presence of current racism because some people still don't believe that racism exists. In your defense, I am pretty terrible at naming things. I once titled a paper "The Impact of Perceived Motivations to Avoid Prejudice on the Categorization of Multiracial Individuals by Black Participants." My co-authors wisely changed the title. "Hypodescent among black perceivers" is a lot better.

@Detroit race chat:
Detroit exists in a country where the greater society is skewed towards the majority group. It does not stand alone. It also is still dealing with the fallout from previous regimes. Inequality does not disappear in a generation or two. Detroit is also not anywhere close to 90% Black. Is EVERYTHING bad about Detroit racially motivated? Certainly not. No one is making that argument

I remember seeing a lot of status legitimizing ideology in the post that was edited out but now I can't remember specifically what.

Kanzler

naughty biscotti

Male
Toronto
Seen April 22nd, 2022
Posted March 11th, 2022
5,957 posts
14.8 Years
I think the discussion of Detroit is trying to show that race is not the only issue. Sure, racial disparity influences corruption and poverty, but those are issues worth examining on their own terms. What I think daigonite is criticizing is the bias here that seems to conflate the problems of society to race. Not everything bad about Detroit is racially motivated, just like how the Ferguson case is not 100% about race. But we haven't been able to examine it in a legal light, nor relate it to corruption or poverty or poor institutions/governance.

Perhaps we can't really expect the community to deliver a discussion about Ferguson in any context other than race, but it's still worth pointing out that there's a bias here to the detriment of a more well-rounded discussion. Be aware of the limitations of us and this thread, so to speak. For goodness's sake, I'm willing to put money that at least 90% of these 180 or so posts have been about race and racism. It would be nice for people to question and examine things like police hiring practices, oversight of the police department, the history of policing in Ferguson in a more sophisticated way than "they all white and that's bad".