New OU Suspect Round - "Run The Jewels"

Started by Dragon November 23rd, 2015 8:00 PM
  • 5773 views
  • 41 replies

Dragon

lover of milotics

Age 30
Male
Viridian City
Seen 18 Hours Ago
Posted October 24th, 2022
11,170 posts
9.7 Years
So Smogon has decided to do a new suspect round, featuring the discussion of Sablenite and Shadow Tag this round.



No surprise that Shadow Tag is a pretty powerful tool in OU, with Gothitelle especially, because Gothitelle can pretty much muck up stall teams with it's use of trapping Chansey or other notable pokemon, utilizing Trick, Rest, and even Thunder Wave, holding a Choice Scarf. Or, having a Choice Specs Gothitelle can work if you're aiming to run moves like Energy Ball, Hidden power Fire, or Psychic against Quagsire, Ferrothorn, (and this 2HKOs 252Def Bold Clefable iirc).

Mega-Sableye has it's useful Mega Bounce tool, allowing it to be a great pivot against the likes of Skarmory, Ferrorthorn, or any other defensive pokemon who likes to set up hazards, or uses status moves like thunder wave, and will-o-wisp, right back at them. It has an impressive bulk too, allowing it to sponge respectable hits.

Anyway, what do you guys think of this new round? Do you think Sablenite and Shadow Tag deserve to be banned? What are your thoughts?


"Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed by the power you and I possess...
DRAGON SLAVE!"

gimmepie

Age 27
Male
Australia
Seen 1 Day Ago
Posted 1 Day Ago
Pretty much what Nolafus said. Shadow Tag, certainly in conjunction with Scarf Gothitelle, is horrible for the metagame but mega-Sableye is hardly broken, especially with the abundance of fairy-types in the OU meta.
RPWLA&MVGGaming Journal

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 19 Hours Ago
15,643 posts
9.5 Years
Are they planning to have separate votes for each one or is it if you vote ban/do not ban it counts for both ST and MSab? It'd be best if it's the former, since Shadow Tag is cancer while Mega Sableye is not.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

KorpiklaaniVodka

KID BUU PAWAA

Age 24
Male
Eastern Europe
Seen September 26th, 2016
Posted September 26th, 2016
3,318 posts
9.9 Years
****ing finally.

Sableye isn't that bad, but Gothitelle is aids. Wobb should stay, so imo the best decision would be to ban the entire Goth family.
PokeCheats | Serebii | AMA | Rock-type Club | Legendary Club #Respect4Rhyperior #Respect4Garbodor #Respect4Tangrowth #FreeGenesect2016 #FreeHoopa-U2016
Everyone saw the Shadow Tag/Goth test coming from a mile away. The Mega Sableye test though is kinda surprising. I don't really see it getting banned tbh. It's an annoyance at most but can easily be beaten with good status absorbers like Heatran. Clefable and Diancie are huge problems for it, any Fairy type can threaten it really, though some can't switch in due to wisp threats like Azu. Mega Lopunny also can pose as a huge threat to it. It punishes teams who aren't prepared for it but overall it's not too overbearing on the meta imo.

punkysaur

Male
In your dreams!
Seen August 17th, 2020
Posted June 27th, 2017
505 posts
8.9 Years
Well i can accept the need to ban shadow tag on gothitelle but if it gets banned completely from ou what abt other shadow tag users such as wobbufet whose one of the usp is its ability.
That as i think would make wobbufet no more usable in ou
As for sablenite,sigh!
Male
Seen 1 Week Ago
Posted June 28th, 2022
7,210 posts
15.9 Years
Wobb isnt broken. Wobb cant do its job to the utmost of its capabilities (i.e to remove threats) without Tickle being on the set and Pursuit support. Otherwise if you dont attack it you're good. If something takes support to be good its not broken. It is also totally reactive and passive to what the opponent does with no offensive presence, Rest, Trick, CM or T-Wave etc which is why it isnt broken and goth is. Goth literally has one positive aspect it brings to ou and that is crippling the cancerous Manaphy and Togekiss and other aids stuff that just totally goes under the radar. Goth is still broken though.

Mega Sableye is a joke of a suspect test, really. There are plenty of rock setters that are standard which it doesnt want to come in on at all. If you lose to msable, sorry you are just a bad and lazy team builder. Faieries, Heatran, fire types, Manaphy, Cune etc and the like all exist and can all set up on it and absorb status. If you are honestly telling me you cannot fit one of those or a pokemon like it on your team which are all common OU pokemon, then you need to quit pokemon because you are awful at teambuilding, sorry not sorry its true. I also feel msables presence is healthy because entry hazards are very centralizing, msable punishes poor and lazy team building and i think its a positive aspect of the game when you cannot just spam hazards and double switch to beat/wear down stall, same with those mukty taunt+wisp/toxic sets people use and are like "hurrr durr am safe from stalll aaaaa sable walls my mindless **** ban ban ban i cant teambuild". Heaven forbid oras introduced defensive Pokemon you cannot just cookie cutter through (mbro is another) and you have to THINK to stallbreak these days. Wow hard concept to grasp isnt it!

Anyway, there is an hilarious bias against one particular stall archetype with this supect test, another reason its a joke, that being sablegoth. The only reason those teams are broken is because goth nulls or cripples like 99% of breakers. Its even more amusing when we consider Manaphy and Hoopa-U were completely ignored. Despite them getting attention, enough said really.
†Kill the unicorn
Just to have its horn
Soon he's just a fantasy†

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 19 Hours Ago
15,643 posts
9.5 Years
Well i can accept the need to ban shadow tag on gothitelle but if it gets banned completely from ou what abt other shadow tag users such as wobbufet whose one of the usp is its ability.
That as i think would make wobbufet no more usable in ou
While Wobbuffet certainly isn't broken or anything, I think that losing it (and Wynaut) from OU in exchange for getting rid of Shadow Tag Gothitelle is a very small price to pay.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

punkysaur

Male
In your dreams!
Seen August 17th, 2020
Posted June 27th, 2017
505 posts
8.9 Years
While Wobbuffet certainly isn't broken or anything, I think that losing it (and Wynaut) from OU in exchange for getting rid of Shadow Tag Gothitelle is a very small price to pay.
I would prefer rather banning shadow tag only on goth.That makes sense to me more

KorpiklaaniVodka

KID BUU PAWAA

Age 24
Male
Eastern Europe
Seen September 26th, 2016
Posted September 26th, 2016
3,318 posts
9.9 Years
I just think banning shadow tag as a whole is silly when its just goth that is broken. Its like banning sheer force and Nidoking because Landorus-I was broken. :s
do you think gothorita is broken?
PokeCheats | Serebii | AMA | Rock-type Club | Legendary Club #Respect4Rhyperior #Respect4Garbodor #Respect4Tangrowth #FreeGenesect2016 #FreeHoopa-U2016

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen March 6th, 2022
Posted January 17th, 2022
10,818 posts
15.8 Years
i think trapping is an inherently uncompetitive mechanic because it places too great of an inhibition on one of the major tenets of skill in the game, switching. i don't want to spell this out too much, but i basically feel this way because the threat of a trapper also seeps into other skill-based aspects of the game, especially risk management and prediction. i know no one is going to ban magnet pull and that's fine because i think you can easily make an argument about magnezone being healthy for the metagame (though i wouldn't agree with it) because of how it affects metagame balance with respect to steel-types (and clefable), but i don't think you can really make that case for gothitelle or even wobbuffet. i think d_a is arguing that wobbuffet isn't broken per se, but from my point of view, this isn't really relevant. i think we can nitpick the choice of what is tested, but i think wobb is fine as collateral to remove goth, and i don't think it's a terrible precedent regardless. ban shadow tag.

as for sableye, i'd want to see it in a metagame without goth. goth+sableye is broken as ****. i would want to see sableye function in the metagame without gothitelle and prove itself to be broken before i'd ban it. i'm not at all convinced that's the case. do not ban sablenite.
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Professor_Jared

Mr. Fish trainer

Age 33
Male
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Seen June 26th, 2016
Posted March 2nd, 2016
501 posts
8.9 Years
I completely understand the need for Gothitelle and the Shadow Tag ability to go, but Mega Sableye?



Are you serious bro?


Fairy types (Especially Calm Mind-Magic Guard/Unaware Clefable) , and/or Heatran laugh at it, not to mention that Mega Lopunny can hit it hard with its Scrappy ability and the Mega Zards can check it quite nicely. Provided that Mega Sableye doesn't have Calm Minds up (For Y) or is carrying Foul Play (For X).

Oh yeah, and let's not forget about fire pokemon in general and Mold Breaker Pokemon carrying taunt like Mega Gyarados and Haxorus.

Megan

She/Her, It/Its
Online now
Posted 1 Hour Ago
17,751 posts
10.3 Years
I somewhat get the feeling this suspect isn't about banning Mega Sableye or Gothitelle/ST, but more of an attempt to keep Goth/ST in the meta. While there are a lot of people supporting a Goth/ST ban, there's also those people that think they are anything but broken. So by suspect testing all of them at once, they are trying to please everybody by saying "Hey, who knows, maybe it's just the combination of the two, that's broken and otherwise they are totally fine."
Moderator of Previous Generations, Forum Games and VPP
You got a thing!

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen March 6th, 2022
Posted January 17th, 2022
10,818 posts
15.8 Years
i wanted to pop back in to encourage everyone to read the post james made on smog about this. fwiw i find his usual "it's all anti-stall bias" chorus to be bs 90% of the time, but i find it pretty amazing that people think it's more restrictive than some offensive pokes in the metagame. i would be really disappointed if it got banned without goth to enable it.
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Polar Spectrum

I'm still here; watching. Waiting.

Non-binary
[Birthplace banned for centralizing childhood]
Seen May 29th, 2017
Posted March 21st, 2017
1,663 posts
8.9 Years
Gothitelle isn't broken; shadow tag is. If you disagree with this statement, please briefly explain to me how competitive gothitelle is in need of a ban as well.

But yeah I suspect reasons for Mega Sableye being thrown up there- reasons that aren't exactly "To create the perfect most balanced metagame". Imo keep both; ban shadow tag. Or - get real specific - just ban gothitelle with shadow tag. Keep other shadow taggers, keep gothitelle without shadow tag, just ban her with it.
The Prism League is BACK BABY - we're operating in Sun / Moon now - come join up!

We're looking for Gym Leaders and Elite 4 members!

Paired with SkyBerries; the berries in the sky.

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 19 Hours Ago
15,643 posts
9.5 Years
The ideal thing I suppose would to be to just ban Shadow Tag on Goth, but I don't really see them doing that. It's always seemed to me like they tend to not like doing any remotely "complex" ban, with the exception this gen being Baton Pass.
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

KorpiklaaniVodka

KID BUU PAWAA

Age 24
Male
Eastern Europe
Seen September 26th, 2016
Posted September 26th, 2016
3,318 posts
9.9 Years
People complain about Mega Sableye because most of them hate stall, really.

Most teams on the ladder are offensive or contain stuff like Lando-T/Heatran/Rotom-W, you know, cookie cutter stuff. Many of these teams really struggle against Mega Sableye stall. They don't bother to play stall because this way most matches would be very long, and people like to finish opposing teams quickly, so they can climb up the ladder and save time. This is why I prefer tournaments to a degree.

It's a pleasure to see a Pokemon like Mega Eye in the meta and it's even more of a pleasure to see toddlers whining about it every day. It's not hard to prepare for it, even if you're a bad teambuilder like I am. Use a fairy-type, Mega Lopunny, **** that can 2HKO it, etc etc.
PokeCheats | Serebii | AMA | Rock-type Club | Legendary Club #Respect4Rhyperior #Respect4Garbodor #Respect4Tangrowth #FreeGenesect2016 #FreeHoopa-U2016

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen March 6th, 2022
Posted January 17th, 2022
10,818 posts
15.8 Years
Gothitelle isn't broken; shadow tag is. If you disagree with this statement, please briefly explain to me how competitive gothitelle is in need of a ban as well.

But yeah I suspect reasons for Mega Sableye being thrown up there- reasons that aren't exactly "To create the perfect most balanced metagame". Imo keep both; ban shadow tag. Or - get real specific - just ban gothitelle with shadow tag. Keep other shadow taggers, keep gothitelle without shadow tag, just ban her with it.
The ideal thing I suppose would to be to just ban Shadow Tag on Goth, but I don't really see them doing that. It's always seemed to me like they tend to not like doing any remotely "complex" ban, with the exception this gen being Baton Pass.
i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?

Nah

Age 30
she/her, they/them
Seen 11 Hours Ago
Posted 19 Hours Ago
15,643 posts
9.5 Years
i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
Nah I know that banning ST doesn't ban Goth, and like I said earlier I'm completely fine with Wobb/Wynaut/Gothorita being collateral in this since ST is an aids ability that should've been banned a long time ago. I think I was just more trying to say that they wouldn't really consider banning it just on Goth. idk


ngl tho, I really would not be surprised if the vote goes the way of banning Mega Sableye and keeping Shadow Tag in OU :|
Nah ンン
“No, I... I have to be strong. Everyone expects me to."

Polar Spectrum

I'm still here; watching. Waiting.

Non-binary
[Birthplace banned for centralizing childhood]
Seen May 29th, 2017
Posted March 21st, 2017
1,663 posts
8.9 Years
i'm not sure this is even disagreeing w/ yall, but a shadow tag ban wouldn't ban gothitelle, just like how the drizzlie ban in uu doesn't ban politoed. there would be virtually no collateral unless you think shadow tag gothita or wynaut is collateral, and at that point you're just picking at nits and it's pretty reasonable that tiering wouldn't get that painstakingly precise. so there isn't any reason for a complex ban of goth+shadow tag because the current suspect is effectively doing the same thing.
Yeah; we're on the same page. I'm all for the shadow tag ban - I'm just looking at how swagon has it proposed; and on their forums it's saying Gothitelle suspect, not shadow tag. So I'm really hoping it IS for the ability, not the poke - since as you said, they're not gonna do just her with just that ability. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken here, it would be a relief.

Apologies if I've failed to accurately scry this information from their site; I was just voicing how wrong I think a ban of Gothitelle would be without consideration of its validity running alternate abilities. And no lol I don't care about wobbuffet, wynaut, and gothorita.
The Prism League is BACK BABY - we're operating in Sun / Moon now - come join up!

We're looking for Gym Leaders and Elite 4 members!

Paired with SkyBerries; the berries in the sky.

Anti

return of the king

Non-binary
Kobe's Reality
Seen March 6th, 2022
Posted January 17th, 2022
10,818 posts
15.8 Years
Yeah; we're on the same page. I'm all for the shadow tag ban - I'm just looking at how swagon has it proposed; and on their forums it's saying Gothitelle suspect, not shadow tag. So I'm really hoping it IS for the ability, not the poke - since as you said, they're not gonna do just her with just that ability. Please do correct me if I'm mistaken here, it would be a relief.

Apologies if I've failed to accurately scry this information from their site; I was just voicing how wrong I think a ban of Gothitelle would be without consideration of its validity running alternate abilities. And no lol I don't care about wobbuffet, wynaut, and gothorita.
it's definitely for the ability not goth, as seen in the op here. some people have been arguing to just ban goth or some other type of ban (and have been rejected, multiple times), while some just use goth and tag interchangeably because goth is the poke that inspired the test.

their policy on abilities, which i think is very smart, is that they only get banned if they're broken on otherwise mediocre mons (like how drizzle poli can break uu even though poli sucks w/o drizzle). this is why protean wasn't banned but greninja was. torrent greninja isn't broken, but neither is protean gothitelle. shadow tag is obviously busted af even on a poke as bad as goth, so tag, not goth, is the suspect.
Why are the beautiful sick and divided like myself?