So this thread got me a lot of notifications so--happy day!--people actually care. At least a little bit. I was partially afraid no one would respond, but you guys proved me wrong. I am a bit disappointed in the direction the discussion went, however. I do like that we're discussing this whole clique issue but it was not the point of this thread, more so the point of it. The fact that it became such a big topic makes me think that I may have hit a sore spot in the aforementioned clique, but I think all of that can be solved while making PC a better place for beginners. Also I'd like to apologize for taking so long to respond. I have a lot of responsibilities (that I'm currently ignoring to respond to this) that I have to fulfill.
You're disappointed in the direction of the discussion because the majority disagree with you, I take it.
And then you think it's because a specific "clique" decided to come bumrush you all at once because you just really struck some kind of nerve, you think.
You end with restating your terminal solution of "just make PC a better place."
I will only address your response to me. Everyone else can hold their own, but there's not much to hold against:
Again, the parts I deleted I already answered.
As for the rest of this... I have to be honest I am confused by a lot of what is written here. So I'll try to take this one point at a time. Honestly, these leftover parts have me a bit disappointed that this is the most liked post. I was much more pleased by other responses to this, dissenting or not.
If my post has so much agreement to it, then perhaps you should consider why, if you can move beyond yourself to do so. Your sole confusion while many others understand clearly enough to agree shows an obvious disconnect. My post is in the same vein as the others. Most of the people in this thread agree with each other. Unfortunate that that agreement is not in agreement with
you.
Your first point about no guides on a roleplay website. What? So you're saying that we shouldn't have roleplay guides because the people who write them don't know how to write well anyways? Is that what you're saying?
I did not say there should be no guides. I said I personally do not recommend guides to beginners because in my experience, it's the blind leading the blind. That is to say, the people who put forth these guides write just about as well as their peers, with just as many flaws and faults. And yet, they often try to assert their way of writing as the better way, and are not comprehensive in the way that encourages branching out from these guidelines they purport like
rules. Serebii's role-playing forum is a great example of how thinking so highly of one's skill and putting forth guides in an effort to have others improve their writing can actually pigeonhole users who are not confident in their abilities.
Even if the author of the guide isn't putting in such a tone in their writing, you do have users who just think guides are book and law anyway, and their way of learning because they are so dependent is through emulating as closely as possible what the guide says. That's an issue of a deeper root.
I honestly hope not. Even if (in your opinion frankly) the guide isn't from the hand of God, anything that can help someone improve is helpful. You don't need to be the best selling author to make a guide. And suggesting that someone have to read through entire RPs to improve is also a bit ridiculous.
I can already tell you're going to shove a lot of words in a lot of mouths.
My entire post is my opinion, so you don't have to remind me or others from this point on that our responses are our opinion.
No, you don't have to be a best-selling author to write a guide. Like I said in this post, the problem can come from people who are not apt to write one comprehensively or flexibly.
Where did I say people should read through "entire RPs to improve"? Not me. Did you read through my entire post? But really, if someone can't be arsed to read the original post of the IC role-play and the character apps to see what people are doing already, then they're just lazy. I have read children's books longer than the RP plot and the linked pages from its accepted applications list. Is reading that little so ridiculous? The answer is and will always be "no."
First of all, if the guides won't be good enough then why would the RPs be good enough?
How do you jump to these conclusions? Writing is a cumulative skill, a building of everything you've learned in practice, from the basics of grammar, mechanics, and syntax to reading comprehension and critical thinking. I don't suddenly read one or two guides on a Pokemon website to make a good role-play post. Writing to
inform requires a different set of skills than writing to
entertain. The presence of guides do not cause whatsoever "good enough" RPs--some standard that is specific only to you since what you think is "good enough" may very well be different from someone else's "good enough." Guides do not cause role-plays to be any better or worse overall. Again, I'll remind you, writing is a cumulative skill. What you bring to a role-play is what you've been shaping over years.
Second, not everyone has the time to read an entire RP and imitate what they see to improve when a guide works just as well. I really don't even like the implication that writers who want to get more skilled should just copy the things more skilled players do. While borrowing what you like is always helpful, writing style is a big factor to anything you produce that's written. You shouldn't just copy what someone else does on the false pretense that since that person is good you have to write like them to get better. Unless you're talking strictly grammar and the rules of the English language (or whatever language you're writing in) that's just completely untrue.
"Or whatever language you're writing in?" How about English. How about I'm talking about Pokecommunity's supposed issue, and PC is a site written in English. Don't turn this issue that
you brought up into a scope that is wider than The Roleplay Theatre.
If you don't have the time to read, like I said, the original post and character applications, or even just a couple IC posts, then that's your problem. Don't read, then. Jump in. You either have enough confidence, eagerness, apathy, or obliviousness to join a role-play, regardless of whether or not it's "advanced" or for "beginners." Good. That's a non-issue. Otherwise, people time-manage, people ask GMs about posting deadlines, and people pick role-plays that if it's already started seem to have a pacing that would suit them.
You don't have to copy what people do. What did I say about making writing peers and connecting with others? There is nothing offensive about finding an element of someone else's writing you enjoy and employing or putting your own twist to it in your own writing next time. This synthesis is natural. This is how people learn about ways of writing they otherwise wouldn't have thought of or come across themselves: through reading and analyzing.
Also, I don't understand how thinking someone is a better writer than you is seeking to join an exclusive crowd? Is it because the word "elite" is being used or??? Just because you want to get to the level of a more skilled RPer doesn't make you "bourgeois-seeking" or whatever analogy you were making here.
You said:
There is an air of elitism and clique-ishness here that says "if you're not in the group, you're not in anything". I addressed that. I did not say that merely thinking someone is better at writing by one's perception is in turn they looking for the in-crowd. That wasn't even relative to your statement of elitism and cliques, when you're talking about being a part of social circles. Nothing about writing. You're conflating things and confusing yourself. You should re-read my post because I cannot explain it any clearer than that.
As for the elitism here I'm just gonna address it now since I skipped over it in previous posts. I made this comment because I remember commentary about being better writers from people here in the forum. Maybe that is just a feeling I got from the forums after I heard that. I don't know, but that's where it is coming from. And it was a while ago as well, so I'm not saying the people/person who said it didn't change their minds.
This doesn't concern me.
So for the 90% thing, not really sure where the "those people don't count" thing came from. I never even said that. If that's what you got out of it, sorry. I more meant to say that if you're within the clique you're more likely to say it's not a problem. That's what people do, especially if they feel attacked by something. Honestly, by some of the comments, I think people thought I was trying to attack whoever I thought was in the clique. Maybe in some attempt to tear them down, but that is far from the true. However, being in a clique somehow mean your opinion doesn't matter. If that was the case why would I even post the thread?
Some people aren't very good at reasoning. Some people can't predict the possible consequences of their words and expect people to agree with them, and when people explain very well how they don't, some people express a general disappointment and admit a lack of understanding as to why or how, and try to counter a number of people at once in an effort to stand their ground, badly confusing themselves in the process, having things go over their head and the like.
Case in point: in saying that anyone who disagrees with your point on cliques is 90% likely to be in that clique, you just mindlessly alienated anyone who disagreed with you on an unfounded, assertive assumption. And then you want to say,
well, why would I post this thread if their opinion didn't matter--the opinion that I just dashed by accusing opponents of not understanding the problem, because they're comfortable in their position as the problem? The problem, so you don't get lost, being
cliques?
I mean, 90% is a lot. I think it was clear that was more of an exaggeration than an actual testament to the problems in the RPC. Especially since this discussion isn't even supposed to be ABOUT the clique thing in the first place. Honestly, it was just supposed to be a supporting point. After that I think you just went even way more off base. I don't think anyone here is an RP activist and the whole "especially on a subforum for pretending to be a Pokemon Trainer, for instance". This is just? What? I really don't understand this inclusion and honestly this sounds a bit elitist. Is there something wrong with being on a subforum about Pokemon? Because you make the idea of having a clique here sound ridiculous and silly. Like having a clique is more worthy in a "more sophisticated" or "more realistic" RP setting. I honestly really hope this is not what you meant.[/i]
Obviously you exaggerated the numerical value of your bogus "statistic." That's not the point. The point is that you are claiming that people who disagreed with your statement had a large probability of being ignorant of the issue because they were involved in it, or in other words, implying they were a part of the problem.
I went off base, you say? I respond to what I understand accordingly. It's alright to take the blame every once in a while and say that you worded something improperly, because I took what you wrote as you wrote it and replied, and a number of people agreed with my interpretation, so perhaps it's not me being way off base as it is you didn't explain yourself well.
You think it's elitist that I am not bothered to pursue a
clique on a forum for pretending to be a Pokemon Trainer? Ha ha. You want to know why it sounds silly? Because it is.
You were complaining about Pokecommunity's The Roleplay Theatre having the feel of a clique, Kikpanther, and now you want to turn around and say I'm sounding elitist for not wanting to be a part of a clique on a Pokemon forum.
To quote:
If that was the case why would I even post the thread?
If I were so elite about a Pokemon subforum, I wouldn't even be here, Kikpanther.
You can't strawman me with that
Something wrong with being on a Pokemon subforum? Even worse, somehow you're trying to say that I think cliques are for sophisticated internet sites. You put up a strawman and then you tied a fishing pole to it to dangle a red herring. I have not read something this confused in a while. I seriously encourage you go back and reread my post.
I'm also really hoping you just had bad word choice for the bolded part next. I bolded this because this part was a shocking to me with what you said. Are you really implying that someone might not be good at roleplaying because they have a disability, don't pay attention in their English classes, or need to review elementary level worksheets? Seriously? You can't be serious and I really hope you're not.
You said there are "
very little resources that help unskilled writers get better".
A learning disability does make it hard to, you know, utilize resources that help unskilled writers get better. Yes, that's right, people like that exist, people who have learning disabilities and difficulties that will make it more of an obstacle to hone their writing. Yes, it's shocking that I acknowledged them, isn't it? They aren't a demographic so often considered.
If you don't pay attention in English class or you know you're struggling with some topics and don't seek tutorship, yes, that level of writing carries over in someone's role-play. Writing is a cumulative skill.
Now you're being facetious. What does elementary mean? If you're offended that people sometimes need to go back and review some rudimentary or foundational aspects of English grammar, mechanics, and even syntax, then get off your high horse. Even
I go back sometimes to refresh my memory on things like parts of speech, phrases, and clauses.
You do not need to actively bully someone to be an elitist. The things you say and the things you do determine that as well and this frankly sounds really elitist to me. Honestly, it does. I'm even more shocked that you would use a guide off of another RP site as possible help even though you already said it doesn't help. Or even imply that someone could easily find or even need to find scholarly articles on creative writing techniques as an alternative to members of the RP forum they're already on giving out advice. Roleplay forums may not be obligated to do anything, but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing to do. What's wrong with being helpful and improving the site as a whole?
What I said about elitism:
True elitism in an rp group is shunning
or actively shaming
people however they can, only letting in their designated crowd of people while they make it a point to call themselves superior, or imply you are inferior with some shady tactics or outright blatancy to prevent the plebians from trickling in.
Again, your quote about how there aren't any resources for writers on Pokecommunity's The Roleplay Theatre, I said a Pokemon subforum is not obligated to creating writing guides for "beginners". I shared my experience and reasoning even in this post as to why I'm hesitant about user-written guides. Then I provided examples of where someone could get the help they needed if someone really wanted to have a guide on how to improve their writing. This chain of response is not difficult to understand unless you're intentionally attempting to twist my words against me. And yes, people can find scholarly articles on writing on the internet. Professors make their money from publishing academic journals online. You can find .PDF files of many topics if you type in the right keywords. You can even log on to your local library's database and peruse or order books and articles to loan. Nothing is out of reach. We live in an age of information. Utilize it or keep finding excuses.
And like I've said before, yes, getting connected to people is also a responsibility of the person who wants to be involved. However, saying "oh well too bad for you" or assuming that person is fragile or infantile is pretty insulting when giving out an extra helping hand isn't backbreaking work and something the members have said they would do anyways.
You just agreed with me that connecting with other people is also the responsibility of the person involved. Good. Agree that ultimately the initiative lies with them since other people are not checking every profile of the names viewing the board to ask if they are trying to join a roleplay and are a "beginner."
It isn't backbreaking work to be new and approach role-plays either.
"I thought your argument with your bae..."? What? I'm not sure if this is supposed to be sass or sarcasm but I really need you to hold it back. I do have a name you can call me by. Unless this is some jab at the fact that we're friends? In which case this is even more confusing.
I read signatures. I quoted "your name" in the same post. Restating what you two call your own relation is not a sarcastic sassy jab. I really need you to hold it back.
And the argument still is that the forum isn't friendly to beginners. If there aren't Beginner RPs to join then where do they go? Off site? Your point didn't prove anything except that we might potentially be losing members for the forum. I would think the problem was solved if I wasn't also convinced that we want people to stay in the RPC.
I suppose you could make your own, then. You have demonstrated that you do not understand the opposing rhetoric as to why other people do not A) see or believe there is such a thing as "beginner" and "advanced" role-plays by whatever criteria you have or have not offered, B) believe there is an air of elitism and clique culture, C) believe there needs to be doting or a concerted forum effort to find and create these "beginner"-tier roleplays for people who let themselves get shy or intimidated.
Okay, next bolded part. WOW! I'm not a fan of reservations either, but this was totally uncalled for. Reserving a spot doesn't make someone lazy or uninspired or whatever you were trying to say by this. This is extremely insulting to anyone who likes using and allowing reservations and I really think you should have thought this through before you said it. I think this part is just as, if not more, elitist than the last bolded section. Not reserving doesn't somehow make you the better person and reserving doesn't make you detrimental to an RP as you implied.
"Reserving a spot doesn't make someone"--
This is where we stop. You with rephrasing something to become a causation, again. How you get to this point is a mystery. I'd offer you to reread my post again to understand what I said, but I'm beginning to think you can't.
And I think Quest may have worded this part a bit poorly here or maybe that was how he felt about it. With how quickly people are accepted here on RPC, a full set of reservations almost guarantees that the RP is going to be full straight away. People rarely drop or miss their reservation so another person can jump in. It's even less likely that you'll be accepted despite a reservation. Not signing up because of that isn't a weakness or whatever you are trying to imply here.
I think at this point I'm writing for the reader and not specifically to whom I'm responding. If you read my previous post, you see my points about, right? I didn't imply the last line in any way, shape, or form, no? Good. I'm glad you understand that I was stating an issue I've found specific to sustaining reserves, my feelings about sustained reserves as a GM and as a player, and how I feel it could be avoided by doing away with them.
With 50+ RPers here in the RPC (according to Ice's post) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect to see more than a couple of faces around here. Especially with the high level of traffic the entire site gets. I think it's really really hard to believe that out of the thousands of people on PC, less than 100 have the desire to RP.
You get upwards a thousand guests on PC looking at any and everything, not necessarily members and just browsing for their own reasons, unable to post. Then we have a couple hundred registered and logged in users doing the same thing, but posting. Yes, it's believable that a handful of these members are into something as niche as writing role-plays. PC doesn't sell itself on posting role-plays. It's a giant source to go to for ROM hacks and tools and resources concerning them. That is, if not one of, its major appeals.
If I must be so frank--as if I wasn't before, this thread, much like the responses I addressed, is confused, and may even so quickly perceive offense. I feel this was a venting thread that tried to make itself look like it was open to discussion. Instead, it's buffeting, only to turn right back around and re-assert the first post and proposals. Circular. Unproductive. So since this has the fanning of a vent thread, the original poster should just outright
tell everyone what she wants to happen since she will not hear other propositions trying to figure out what would please her. And I do say what would please
her because the tide of this thread is noticeably against her, as in making this thread, she is taking on the stance to advocate for new players where new players have said to her that they were welcomed just fine, and old players who returned said they got over themselves and then felt welcomed.
To the person who managed to get through all the rubbish of back and forth and you ended up here, let me tell you,
don't be afraid to take the first step and reach out. Moderators or role-players whose posts you've read and admire, have some confidence to ask some questions and make a peer. The only person who can make yourself known is you.