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Old October 5th, 2005 (7:14 AM).
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In-game, I give Dragon Claw a little credit for usefulness.... A LITTLE. But in competitive play, it is quite overrated by some people. First off, let's look at all the dragon types:

Dratini
Dragonair
Dragonite
Kingdra
Bagon
Shelgon
Salamence
Vibrava
Flygon
Latios
Latias
Rayquaza

Now let's narrow it down to the ones people actually use:

Dragonite
Kingdra
Salamence
Flygon
Latios
Latias
Rayquaza


As you can see, Dragonite, Salamence, Flygon, and Rayquaza are all 4x weak to ice type attacks, making Ice Beam/HP Ice much more useful than Dragon Claw. [email protected] both have Calm Mind, but vs ubers, Ice Beam still packs a punch, and that psychic typing opens it up to Shadow Ball/HP Bug/Megahorn weaknesses. That leaves Kingdra. Kingdra is just about as overrated as Dragon Claw. Weakness to only Dragon type moves may seem like a valid reason for Dragon Claw, but it isn't. Good Thunderbolts do about 20-30%, so we're talking a reasonable time for a KO. Then there are those CM IceBeams/Tbolts that take care of the job. We also have Blissey, Snorlax, and occasionally Vaporeon or Mantine to take Kingdra down as well.

Also take in the fact that Dragon Claw is only super effective against Dragon Types, making ice beam, as i stated before, much more useful.

As of the controversy of using Dragonair over Dragonite to get rid of the 4x weak, Dragonair takes a 1-2HKO from Ice Beam, and with the right EVs, so does Dragonite, making Dragonite the prime choice.

Questions? Comments? Concerns? Phlaming is welcome.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (7:24 AM).
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btw, i give [email protected] credit with this move for CM and STAB
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Old October 5th, 2005 (7:50 AM).
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dragon claw is useful on my charizard..... i have flamethrower, and hp grass(for swamperts). dragon claw is quite useful as it does neutral damage to a lot of pokes on the switch, and my charizard has enough sp.att so that it hurts.

i suppose i can get hp ice instead.. but then i can no longer KO swamperts by surprise... it's always fun to see a swampert switch in to take a flamethrower and then gets OHKO by hp grass.

i do think dragon claw still has its usefulness though. yeah, hp ice is better against dragons, but using dragon claw+hp grass gives my charizard more type coverage.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (8:04 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
dragon claw is useful on my charizard..... i have flamethrower, and hp grass(for swamperts). dragon claw is quite useful as it does neutral damage to a lot of pokes on the switch, and my charizard has enough sp.att so that it hurts.

i suppose i can get hp ice instead.. but then i can no longer KO swamperts by surprise... it's always fun to see a swampert switch in to take a flamethrower and then gets OHKO by hp grass.

i do think dragon claw still has its usefulness though. yeah, hp ice is better against dragons, but using dragon claw+hp grass gives my charizard more type coverage.
True c-dog it does give your charizard more type coverage, but some pokemon are good with d/claw but yet some are best of with t/bolt and ice beam . :snea:
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Old October 5th, 2005 (9:35 AM).
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indeed. Here's a comment from my friend on another forum:

Quote:
Any dragon type move is much more useful in game than it is in NB. I never understand people, when they do use Kingdra, opt for using Dragonbreath, just because they're looking for parahax. First off, if you're using the proper Kingdra set, you're going faster than everyone except Ninjask/Electrode after one turn. Second off, the Dragonbreath slot can be used to screw over your opponent in an entirely different way, such as Toxic, Attract (I have used it =D) or EndureFlail.

Overall, there are far better moves you can give a dragon type besides a dragon move, for any one of them.

And Dragonair over Dragonite? If you're that scared of Ice Beam, you shouldn't be playing.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (9:38 AM).
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I wanted to add this in that previous post, but i keep getting logged off like every 2 minutes for some reason. But a base 80 power move doing neutral damage on an opponent without STAB (i.e. Sceptile using Dragon Claw), isn't bad, but usually not too good either. It doesn't even get an added effect like Crunch. So unless it's [email protected] using it, it feels like a wasted Moveslot. Especially when there are other moves that do it better along with moves that help support it in type coverage, such as boltbeaming.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (10:30 AM).
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charizard cant boltbeam... it's not an option for him. flamethrower+hp grass+dragon claw+endure+max sp.att EV+modest @ salac works for me. i'm not talking in-game either, my charizard is pretty good, if i may say so myself, in netbattle. for special sweeperts like charizard that can't bolt beam, dragon claw has its use.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (5:22 PM).
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Some people also prefer FlameClaw on Dragonite as opposed to BoltBeam.
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Old October 5th, 2005 (5:36 PM).
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i don't NB so i use D-claw a lot on my pokemon because i have no link cable or gameshark to get TMs better than this more than once. I'll admit that ice beam is wya more effective against dragons than d-claw but for some special sweeping pokemon that can't learn ice beam and you need 2 fill that last move slot, *cough Sceptile cough* d-claw is better.

WOOT!!! 100th post!!!
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Old October 6th, 2005 (6:58 AM).
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Well, Charizard's cool and all, but I prefer to use other things. Especially with DDSala walking all over in the OU metagame. I know there's no other choice for Special Charizard but D.Claw (lame Nintendo, very lame), but Dragon Dance/Swords Dance + EQ and/or HP Flying is a little more useful IMO, just so Blissey doesn't start raping.
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Old October 6th, 2005 (6:59 AM).
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And btw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury of Ninetales
i don't NB so i use D-claw a lot on my pokemon because i have no link cable or gameshark to get TMs better than this more than once. I'll admit that ice beam is wya more effective against dragons than d-claw but for some special sweeping pokemon that can't learn ice beam and you need 2 fill that last move slot, *cough Sceptile cough* d-claw is better.

WOOT!!! 100th post!!!

That's why HP Ice is kinda standard on Sceptile
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Old October 6th, 2005 (8:08 AM).
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Flameclaw is a very effective combo for a spec sweeper. Why is being guaranteed a neutral hit or better bad? And Zard can beat Kingdra with D Claw. I have done it before on Netbattle, even yesterday.(I have also swept almost a whole team with my e4 espy, but let's not go there).
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Old October 6th, 2005 (12:53 PM).
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Boltbeam > Flameclaw.

Super effective hits > getting some UUs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 7th, 2005 (6:59 AM).
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Heh Char beating Kingdra with Dragon Claw? Almost impossible without a critical hit. Dragon Claw is usually only a 2HKO on Dragon types, where as a Kingdra + Rain Dance + Surf will Take Char out before it gets a chance to hit it again. And BoltBeaming is still a much better tactic to use than flameclaw for Draggy, as its resisted by less types, covers a good amount of type weaknesses, has more power combined than that of flameclaw, and both have extra effects.
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Old October 7th, 2005 (7:32 AM).
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where as a Kingdra + Rain Dance + Surf will Take Char out before it gets a chance to hit it again.
Not if Kingdra came in on the switch.
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Old October 7th, 2005 (7:34 AM).
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If the EVs are right, and you have leftovers, it prolly will take on Char anyway. Either way, Kingdra's overrated, idk why I'm even defending it's position.
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Old October 7th, 2005 (8:19 AM).
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well, charizard is a sentimental favorite of mine so that's why i use it. i could care less if kingdra can beat charizard(it's water vs. fire so it better win), but charizard does have its uses. the good thing about special zards are that people ALWAYS expect that DD one and so the special zard makes for a very nice surprise. if i were to use physical i like the bellyzard better anyway. charizard is weak, so if you're good enough to time a DD you might as well time a sub and then belly drum and then sweep. but like i said, i find special zard to be the most useful for my team's purposes anyway.
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Old October 7th, 2005 (5:15 PM).
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the good thing about charizard is that it makes Salamence look even better.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 7th, 2005 (7:46 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham
the good thing about charizard is that it makes Salamence look even better.
salamence is usually used as a combo sweeper or physical. my charizard is a special sweepert(hence not really comparable) and it pwn's mence one on one anyday.

turn1
charizard uses dragon claw
salamence uses DD

turn2
charizard braces it self
salamence uses rockslide
charizard endures the hit-salac activates

turn3
charizard uses dragon claw
salamence fainted

and charizard with salac goes on to pwn entire teams with [email protected], granted blissey has been taken out. that's how special my zard is, it's unpredictable. hardly anybody's seen this moveset before.
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Old October 8th, 2005 (9:50 AM).
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STOP ****ING THINKING THAT A ONE ON ONE DEUL IS THE ONLY FACTOR IN A WHICH IS BETTER CONTEST DAMMIT.

I've had Salamence sweep teams on multiple occasions. and Charizard has way to many ****ing weaknesses.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 8th, 2005 (10:23 AM).
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The big letters just make you seem irrational. It is still a factor. You like Groudon more than Kyogre, don't you? Your opinion that the one on one battle means nothing is something a Groudon user would say because Kyogre whups Groudon one on one.
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Old October 8th, 2005 (10:36 AM).
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the thing is, they take it as the ONLY factor.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 8th, 2005 (5:19 PM).
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OK. The ONLY time you should compare two pokemon one on one is if you're trying to see if one can properly counter the other. Two pokemon can only be compared for usability if they have similar roles. You compare them by looking at their effectiveness against other pokemon. If one can beat the other, so what? What if the other can topple everything the one could, plus 5 more? Is it still worse? Look at everything else first, then themselvesif you want an accurate comparison.
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Old October 10th, 2005 (2:09 AM). Edited October 10th, 2005 by c_dog.
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well, guess what, you said salamence is better than charizard in terms of usefulness but i say you're way wrong(you said charizard makes mence look better, no?). charizard is just as good as salamence if you are comparing their DD and physical sweep ability, plus charizard is versatile enough to be an effective special sweepert(what i go with). so i really don't understand where you're coming from with the whole "charizard just makes mence looks better" crap. i think you're just horribly underrating charizard.

the fact that charizard can beat salamence 1vs 1 just makes him seem that much stronger. charizard can do everything salamence can do, and more( DD/rockslide/hpflying/flamethower, these are in charizard's fortee too). saying you've destroyed teams with your mence means nothing because i've destroyed plenty myself with zard. :/

and charizard has as much weakness as salamence. they're both weak to the standard rockslide and tbolt, and mence is weak to ice while zard is weak to water. the difference here is mence is slightly less fragile, but meh, not much of a difference.
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Old October 10th, 2005 (1:32 PM). Edited October 10th, 2005 by Ham.
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19 lines of bull****! yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
well, guess what, you said salamence is better than charizard in terms of usefulness but i say you're way wrong(you said charizard makes mence look better, no?).
I said that, and I speak the truth.

Quote:
charizard is just as good as salamence if you are comparing their DD and physical sweep ability,
Lies. Salamence has a LOT more Physical attack. 2 DD'd Salamence HP Fly OHKOs Starmie. it would take Charizard more than it can afford to get.

Quote:
plus charizard is versatile enough to be an effective special sweepert(what i go with).
so is Salamence. with a better Sp.atk stat too. unlike Charizard, it can alos mixed sweep. Charizard has far too low attack.

Quote:
so i really don't understand where you're coming from with the whole "charizard just makes mence looks better" crap.
Statistical superiority? being the best switch in on a fighting move sans ghosts?

Quote:
i think you're just horribly underrating charizard.
I give all the pokemon all the credit they deserve.

Quote:
the fact that charizard can beat salamence 1vs 1 just makes him seem that much stronger.
IF THAT **** MENT ****

BTW, Salamence should've Rock Slided first. you **** idiots keep having the pokemon you don't like do retarded ****.

Quote:
charizard can do everything salamence can do, and more( DD/rockslide/hpflying/flamethower, these are in charizard's fortee too).
Charizard cannot Choice Band, take physical hits on switch ins **** well, sweep after 2 DDs, and only have one predictable weakness.

Quote:
saying you've destroyed teams with your mence means nothing because i've destroyed plenty myself with zard. :/
some of them were in 10 turns.

Quote:
and charizard has as much weakness as salamence. they're both weak to the standard rockslide and tbolt, and mence is weak to ice while zard is weak to water. the difference here is mence is slightly less fragile, but meh, not much of a difference.
Salamence has Rock, Ice, and Dragon. Intimidate takes care of rock and Dragon is never used anyway. Ice is pretty predictable, but is still a problem.

Charizard has water, electic, and rock. unlike Salamence, it doesn't have intimdate to save it from rock, and it is a OHKO, and Electric is ****ing common thanks to Suicune being a ***** and Zapdos being good. Water is common as water types are common. Charizard has to switch out alot more than salamence to stay alive, making it less useful.

every time I have run into a Charizard, it hasn't been much more than a free kill.

every time I have run into a Salamene, it forced me to predict, switch, and hope it doesn't kill me.

as I said, 19 lines of bull****.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
 

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