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Old October 10th, 2005 (2:52 PM).
Synchronize's Avatar
Synchronize Synchronize is offline
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Man, ham, chill. It's not all that serious. But seriously, sala is pretty much more useful than char. Not only can it take it down in one hit, one-on-one, but it makes generally for a better special sweeper with more move choices(i.e. crunch, hydropump, etc.). It also has more resistances and less weakness, plus that loverly Intimidate to cut down on opposing Rock move damage. It's also a more effective DD user and Choice Band user. All of which Ham, said, which i am supporting. in terms of underatting Charizard, it can help but be that way in the OU metagame with cunes and salas running around. bellyzard, as I've heard, is bretty nice in GSC though.
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Old October 11th, 2005 (12:28 AM).
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first of all the real lie is when you say you give credit where its due, while giving charizard zero credit. salamence is statistically superior than charizard, but charizard has decent enough stats and enough variety in its movepool to be just as useful as salamence.

[email protected] [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-DD
-Earthquake
-Rockslide/Hp Fly
-Overheat

[email protected] [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-sub/Overheat
-bellydrum
-earthquake
-Hp fly/rockslide

[email protected] [modest]
252sp.att, 252speed, 6hp
-endure/sub
-flamethrower
-HP Grass/HP Ice
-dragon claw

being relatively unused, its movesets can go from being the "standard" DD set, or it can be something totally different. i don't think its fair to judge charizard just by the fact that its an inferior DD dancer than mence when it can obviously do more than just DD. this is why i disagree with you when you say mence makes charizard look bad, because it doesn't. charizard is still a good pokemon in his own right.

my favorite charizard is the special zard with endure, which is something that's probably never been seen by anyone. its biggest advantage is that people always expect it to be the standard DD zard and it being a special totally messes them up. depending on which moves you use it can OHKO or 2HKO most pokemon, and after endure+salac, flamethrower ensures OHKO of almost any pokemon that are neutral to it. this zard is also quite the swampert/dragon slayer depending the makeup of your team. if you have a swampert problem, sending out zard lures out swampert everytime to take flamethrowers, and hp grass finishes it. it works everytime. if you have dragon/salamence problems, charizard's also great for it. the standard DD salamence gets outrun by charizard if you've given it max speed(its the truth the non-CB mence gets outrun). I go with the grass set because my teams don't have mence problems and it's fun to lure out swamps and give them a nice surprise.

Anyway, i get a feeling i'm not convincing enough just by typing all this... my name on netbattle is "AsH OwnZed j00" or something like that(not sure where the caps go)... you'll know it when you see it. i'm usually on the smogon server. let me know your netbattle name and we can battle sometime. hopefully i can change your mind about charizard because it's really quite useful. i tend to stay away from OU's with movesets set in stone.. they're predictable and people know them too well. Using BL-UU pokemon works to your advantage sometimes because while they may be statistically weaker they are much more unpredictable.

Quote:
Lies. Salamence has a LOT more Physical attack. 2 DD'd Salamence HP Fly OHKOs Starmie. it would take Charizard more than it can afford to get.

so is Salamence. with a better Sp.atk stat too. unlike Charizard, it can alos mixed sweep. Charizard has far too low attack
salamence does have a lot more physical attack so it's a superior DD than zard. zard does have the belly drum alternative going for him though, and with salac that zard is arguably just as good.

and charizard has slightly worse sp.att but with STAB in flamethrower, and enough sp.att to use dragon claw and hidden power effectively. though, i guess mence is just as effective having STAB dragon claw instead of *insert fire attack*.. i hardly see any special mence but i guess they're just as good as the special zard.. but zard does have blaze going for it.

in terms of mixed sweeping, charizard although having inferior stats can use stab overheat which can make it at least comparable to mence.

Quote:
Salamence should've Rock Slided first. you **** idiots keep having the pokemon you don't like do retarded ****
the standard mence likes to set up DD, what can i say? when my charizard faces a standard mence it almost always DD on the first turn. i mean it's smart for the mence to DD really, i mean who would expect the charizard to actually stay instead of switching to a rock slider or icebeamer? so the switch is the perfect opportunity to set up DD(i mean, it's not like charizard has ANYTHING to take out salamence right?). i think even you would use DD, despite your claim that you would use rockslide. you just can't predict that charizard had dragon claw.
Charizard cannot Choice Band, take physical hits on switch ins **** well, sweep after 2 DDs, and only have one predictable weakness.
every time I have run into a Salamene, it forced me to predict, switch, and hope it doesn't kill me.

charizard can DD and sweep after 2 DD, just not as good as salamence. but like i said before, it can do so effectively enough so that they're two of charizard's many possible movesets, making it a far more unpredictable pokemon than salamence. how unpredictable is salamence? it's either a DD or CB. heck, this coming from a guy who got called out by A.Coz for using roar on my salamence instead of fireblast.. :S
Quote:
unlike Salamence, it doesn't have intimdate to save it from rock
intimidate is huge. but all rest you say is meh. most water types carry ice beam with them you know. and most electric types come with bolt team, so meh. but yes intimidate is probably what separates salamence from charizard; that and his advantage in having lots more attack. this and the fact that charizard has blaze is why i like my charizard as a special sweepert(no need for att stat, blaze to use it to its full capability).
anyway, see you on netbattle.
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Old October 11th, 2005 (3:46 PM).
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Ham Ham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
first of all the real lie is when you say you give credit where its due, while giving charizard zero credit.
which is what's due. there is something that does what it does better, and pokemon does not allow for multiple roles. Typhlosion and Blaziken are better Blaze abusers than Charizard, Salamence is a better physical and mixed sweeper.

Quote:
salamence is statistically superior than charizard, but charizard has decent enough stats and enough variety in its movepool to be just as useful as salamence.
actually, it doesn't. it almost the EXACT SAME MOVEPOOL AS SALAMENCE, AND WORSE STATS ALL AROUND, WORSE TYPING, AND A WORSE ABILITY. THAT =/= AS USEFUL.

Quote:
[email protected] [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-DD
-Earthquake
-Rockslide/Hp Fly
-Overheat
Salamence says hi and does that better.

Quote:
[email protected] [adament/jolly]
252att, 252speed, 6hp
-sub/Overheat
-bellydrum
-earthquake
-Hp fly/rockslide
pokemon say hi and hit it and ruin the plan, as Charizard is too frail to do something like this.

Quote:
[email protected] [modest]
252sp.att, 252speed, 6hp
-endure/sub
-flamethrower
-HP Grass/HP Ice
-dragon claw
Typhlosion and Blaziken say hi and do this better as Typhlo has Thunderpunch and Blaziken has STABed Sky Uppercut and more Sp.atk, and both have an Earthquake weakness which makes getting to 1 HP easier.

Quote:
being relatively unused, its movesets can go from being the "standard" DD set, or it can be something totally different.
Salamence, which has about the exact same movepool with better stats, can too.

Quote:
i don't think its fair to judge charizard just by the fact that its an inferior DD dancer than mence when it can obviously do more than just DD.
and suck worse at it than other pokemon?

Quote:
this is why i disagree with you when you say mence makes charizard look bad, because it doesn't. charizard is still a good pokemon in his own right.
it's average. it is easy to kill and is outdone by other pokemon in all respects.

Quote:
my favorite charizard is the special zard with endure, which is something that's probably never been seen by anyone. its biggest advantage is that people always expect it to be the standard DD zard and it being a special totally messes them up.
until bliss comes in and says hi :/

Quote:
depending on which moves you use it can OHKO or 2HKO most pokemon, and after endure+salac, flamethrower ensures OHKO of almost any pokemon that are neutral to it.
wait, you can't 2HKO anything with that moveset, as even caterpie tackle would kill it.

suicune says hi.

Quote:
this zard is also quite the swampert/dragon slayer depending the makeup of your team. if you have a swampert problem, sending out zard lures out swampert everytime to take flamethrowers, and hp grass finishes it. it works everytime.
did you ever stop and think as to WHY everything uses HP Grass? Swampert's so badass that it altered what Fire and Electric pokemon use as standard.

Quote:
if you have dragon/salamence problems, charizard's also great for it. the standard DD salamence gets outrun by charizard if you've given it max speed(its the truth the non-CB mence gets outrun).
you mean like it won't die because you neglected it's poor defenses?

Quote:
I go with the grass set because my teams don't have mence problems and it's fun to lure out swamps and give them a nice surprise.
see above.

Quote:
Anyway, i get a feeling i'm not convincing enough just by typing all this... my name on netbattle is "AsH OwnZed j00" or something like that(not sure where the caps go)... you'll know it when you see it. i'm usually on the smogon server. let me know your netbattle name and we can battle sometime.
meh, I don't like seeking out n00bs.

Quote:
hopefully i can change your mind about charizard because it's really quite useful.
despite EVERY TIME I have ran into a Charizard I laughed at it, told the guys about it, got them to laugh at it, and then killed it soon afterwards with minimal damage?

Quote:
i tend to stay away from OU's with movesets set in stone.. they're predictable and people know them too well.
everyone knows what Heracross does. they often can't do **** about it anyway.

Quote:
Using BL-UU pokemon works to your advantage sometimes because while they may be statistically weaker they are much more unpredictable.
except that if you don't suck you have an idea of their stats and standard moveset, but anyway...

Quote:
salamence does have a lot more physical attack so it's a superior DD than zard. zard does have the belly drum alternative going for him though, and with salac that zard is arguably just as good.
BUT you must avoid getting hit somehow.

Quote:
and charizard has slightly worse sp.att but with STAB in flamethrower, and enough sp.att to use dragon claw and hidden power effectively. though, i guess mence is just as effective having STAB dragon claw instead of *insert fire attack*.. i hardly see any special mence but i guess they're just as good as the special zard.. but zard does have blaze going for it.
Salamence has Intimidate, 135 Base attack'd Brick Breaks, and better typing.

Quote:
in terms of mixed sweeping, charizard although having inferior stats can use stab overheat which can make it at least comparable to mence.
then you still have to consider Charizard's mukty attack.

Quote:
the standard mence likes to set up DD, what can i say? when my charizard faces a standard mence it almost always DD on the first turn.
what a good Salamence does is run in and hit something until it's late game, and then proceed to DD and sweep the remainder of the team.

Quote:
i mean it's smart for the mence to DD really, i mean who would expect the charizard to actually stay instead of switching to a rock slider or icebeamer? so the switch is the perfect opportunity to set up DD(i mean, it's not like charizard has ANYTHING to take out salamence right?).
nnnnnnnnnnnothing.

Quote:
i think even you would use DD, despite your claim that you would use rockslide.
my Salamence doesn't ahve Dragon Dance :/

Quote:
you just can't predict that charizard had dragon claw.
if Charizard could OHKO Mence with it.

Quote:
Charizard cannot Choice Band, take physical hits on switch ins **** well, sweep after 2 DDs, and only have one predictable weakness.
every time I have run into a Salamene, it forced me to predict, switch, and hope it doesn't kill me.

charizard can DD and sweep after 2 DD, just not as good as salamence.
MAKING IT WORSE THAN SALAMENCE.

Quote:
but like i said before, it can do so effectively enough so that they're two of charizard's many possible movesets, making it a far more unpredictable pokemon than salamence.
but its flaws make it far more easier to deal with.

Quote:
how unpredictable is salamence? it's either a DD or CB. heck, this coming from a guy who got called out by A.Coz for using roar on my salamence instead of fireblast.. :S
but can you do much about it? not really. who cares how predictable it is if it does way too much for you to do **** about it.

:S is a stupid smile anyway. what's the S stand for? I'm a Stupid idiot?

Quote:
intimidate is huge. but all rest you say is meh. most water types carry ice beam with them you know.
Swampert might, but lacks the stats to make OHKO Sp.atk unaffordable, Vaporeon is a Hazer, BPer, and Wisher, so Ice Beam would often take up too much room, Suicune doesn't have the room for it, Blastoise is a utility pokemon, so it doesn't have the room for Ice Beam. the rest of the water pokemon are UU.

Quote:
and most electric types come with bolt team, so meh.
except that swampert laughs at Boltbeaming things.

Quote:
but yes intimidate is probably what separates salamence from charizard; that and his advantage in having lots more attack.
and more HP, Defense, Speed, Special attack, Special defense, and same speed, but anyway...

Quote:
this and the fact that charizard has blaze is why i like my charizard as a special sweepert(no need for att stat, blaze to use it to its full capability).
as I said before, Typhlosion and Blaziken does that **** better than Charizard.

Quote:
anyway, see you on netbattle.
as I said, I don't seek out n00bs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
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Old October 11th, 2005 (5:22 PM).
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Ice demon Ice demon is offline
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This is retarded.
Salamence > Charizard.
Always...I mean sala has a better special movepool, an equal physical movepool and superior stats in everything but speed where it is tied with charizard..
Why is this even being debated?

DC doesn't OHKO sala anyway.But rockslide OHKO charizard.

And ham isn't extremely worked up..If u notice,all his posts are like that.
=D
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Old October 11th, 2005 (11:10 PM).
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Go ahead try to OHKO my Starmie: Double Team, Recover, Surf, Blizzard

or my Dragonite: Double Team, Blizzard, Thunder Wave, Hyper Beam

or wait Slaking: Hyper Beam, Shadow Ball, Earthquake, Rest

even in Yellow people were shocked at my Charizard: Dig, Fly, Double Team, Rest

If you cant hit your opponent or keep em down you will never win. Rest/Double Team is the most evil combo ever created or even Rest/Substitute/Double Team is the most awesome deffense, but personaly I hate devoting 3 move slots to deffense. Oh well see ya.
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Old October 11th, 2005 (11:11 PM).
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c_dog c_dog is offline
 
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er, you still missed my point. charizard can be used as DD like mence, it can belly, it can special sweep. it doesn't matter if mence > zard in DD and typholsion > zard in special because what makes zard great here is his unpredictability. again, it's the fact that it can be effective using DD, belly, special set all at once that gives it a variety of moveset, hence unpredictablity. you just don't know whether it's going to DD up or belly drum or special sweep you. what if you bring out blissey thinking it's a special zard and instead it turns out to be a belly zard? what if you bring out swampert thinking it's a DD zard and it turns out to be a special zard with hp grass?

funny you bring out "blissey". blissey stops all special sweeperts, not just zard. just because there's "blissey" doesn't make charizard a lesser special sweepert. there are 5 more pokemon on the team who can take care of blissey. charizard can special sweep with the best of them. the dclaw-endure-dclaw combo won't work if blissey is not taken down already(doesn't take a genius to figure it out, DUH!). if you're gonna go there you might as well talk about tyranitar with sandstorm or anything with fakeout/extremespeed/machpunch and the like that ruins any berry users, geez.

And charizard ohko or 2hko most things that are normal resistence, despite your stubborn-ness to believe me.

and what do you mean most pokemon use hp grass? jolteon, zapdos, most of them still go with bolt beam. :/ some of them use hp grass because it's an alternative, and why not? alternatives are good.

Quote:
you mean like it won't die because you neglected it's poor defenses?
what? charizard is faster than DD mence! if it has hp ice mence is OHKO before it can do anything. same for swamp because it's even slower. hp grass it. i've killed too many swamps with my zard, don't even try to pretend that swamps don't get killed by zard. most of them actually take at ~13% damage from flamethrower coming in and zard just kills them with hp grass the next turn, it happens practically every other game.

and fine, don't seek me out :S just don't be surprised if you run into a special zard that destroys your entire team next time you're on smogon. i find it funny that even some of the best battlers like husk will take their time to fight "newbies" like me and give me pointers, but it's always the cocky arrogant ones who just talk the talk and too chicken to walk the walk. :/ suit yourself. you don't even sound like you've ever met a special zard since you even think swamps have a chance against it.

and yes everybody knows what heracross can do, but perhaps only you can't do anything about it -_-;; heracross is a good pokemon but saying nobody can do anything about it is an overstatement. how hard is it to predict when you know the opponent's moveset?

and UU's have inferior stats, but their movesets are less familiar. some UU's allow for some unique and effective movesets.
Quote:
except that if you don't suck you have an idea of their stats and standard moveset, but anyway...
this quote is golden. the funny thing most UU's aren't standard. they'd surprise you.

bellydrum works if you know how to use it at the right time :S it's not that hard, there are plenty of chances to do it. sub+belly also works because it activates salac. perhaps you're the noob if you don't even know how to use belly drum.

and even if charizard can't OHKO mence it can 2HKO it. if mence switches in a dragon claw it's good as gone because it's gone in the next turn.

and why do you bring out swamps when i say most pokemon still bolt beam? yeah most pokemon still bolt beam because there aren't many pokemon who are resistent to it. fact is bolt beamers destory salamence. swamps laugh in the face of bolt beamers but grass types laugh in the face of swampert -_- it's pointless.............. fact is you're pretending salamence doesn't have weakness and when i bring out he has a common weakness you bring out swamp... okay... yea swamp is bolt beam resistent but that doesn't change the fact for salamence. but if you're trying to make the point salamence + swamp makes a good team together then point taken, but charizard can also be paired with a pokemon resistent to water+tbolt+rockslide(could be swampert too, or venasaur).

your last couple sentences just proves that you still don't get my point. variety, and unpredictablity, is what makes charizard useful, the fact that you don't know what to expect from it. but i figure you'll never get it because you don't take me seriously. the fact that someone's arguing that a UU pokemon can be useful won't let you.

@ice demon, i'm not arguing charizard>mence(god forbid), i'm arguing that charizard has a wide enough movepool and enough effectiveness so that it can be used with multiple movesets hence making it a very unpredictable pokemon. charizard may not have as good stats but it can do what salamence does, with the belly alternative, and using stab fire attacks. DD salamence needs a lot of sp.att ev's to OHKO skarms with fireblast, hence it doesn't have the ev's to go into its speed, that's why charizards are usually faster than it. most DD salamence also choose to have STAB with HP Fly and earthquake instead of rockslide. so yes, charizard does have a chance against DD salamence, especially with most people opting to DD on the first turn to try to get the speed advantage(and they figure with intimidate charizard can't possibly kill them with rockslide.. to their surprise the charizard uses Dclaw).
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Old October 12th, 2005 (2:20 PM).
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I;ve been trying to post replies on this for two days, but can't for some reaosn or another. I've saved my original post on word at school, so i'll try and post it later. But for now, I want to add that most good swampys survive most non-STABed HP grass. Even my Magneton with max attack + modest didn't OHKO one of the good ones
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Old October 12th, 2005 (8:09 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbreonShadow
I;ve been trying to post replies on this for two days, but can't for some reaosn or another. I've saved my original post on word at school, so i'll try and post it later. But for now, I want to add that most good swampys survive most non-STABed HP grass. Even my Magneton with max attack + modest didn't OHKO one of the good ones
but see, swampies are usually switched in to take flamethrowers and the like, and then get OHKO'ed the next turn(i thought i mentioned that??? i said repeatedly charizard lures out swampy to take flamethrowers and then KO's it the next turn). i guess the "OHKO" can be misleading because swampies are not at max hp after taking a flamethrower, and yes, hp grass does kill them the next turn. try it yourself.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (7:01 AM).
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IF a swampy has good enough sp. def to take a HP grass, it surely can take a flamethrower and recover enough HP to take an HP grass. Also Nicpert can help the healing process and set it up to take more damage.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (7:20 AM).
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[/quote] what? charizard is faster than DD mence![/quote]

Which is the exact reason people should stop criticizing me for using max speed with nature on stuff like Zappy and sala
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Old October 13th, 2005 (7:46 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbreonShadow
IF a swampy has good enough sp. def to take a HP grass, it surely can take a flamethrower and recover enough HP to take an HP grass. Also Nicpert can help the healing process and set it up to take more damage.
what are you talking about??? what do you mean it can recover enough HP to take HP grass?? you mean with leftovers??? leftovers doesn't nearly recover enough HP for it to withstand a hp grass dude.

turn1
trainer withdraw certain pokemon weak to flamethrower, trainer puts in swampy
charizard uses flamethrower, swampy takes damage

turn2
charizard uses hp grass
swampy fainted

and there you have it. and no, flamethrower does enough damage to swampy that hp grass finishes it, even if swampy has lefties.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (7:48 AM).
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what? charizard is faster than DD mence![/quote]

Which is the exact reason people should stop criticizing me for using max speed with nature on stuff like Zappy and sala[/QUOTE]

no, they're right because salamence needs 212 ev's in sp.att inorder to have enough sp.attack to OHKO skarms with fire blast. such is because it doesn't get stab unlike charizard, hence charizard almost always have the speed advantage on salamence.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (8:05 AM).
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Salamence is easy for me to beat. I just switch in Dusclops and I/beam it for the OHKO. But Zard is harder. I have T/Bolt on Zapdos and Rock Slide on Blaziken, but those are predictable. Nobody expects Dusclops to have Ice Beam(or Shadow Ball, for thet matter). Also, about Spec Zard, I find Heat Wave>Flamethrower. The reason is that Heat Wave gets more OHKOs with normal hits due to the power boost, while the accuracy reduction is barely enough to notice. And I always play with full PP Ups so the lowered PP does nothing either. It only sucks against double team Scizor, and I still have Flamethrower on Blaze and Flare to kill it anyway.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (2:31 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
er, you still missed my point. charizard can be used as DD like mence, it can belly, it can special sweep. it doesn't matter if mence > zard in DD and typholsion > zard in special because what makes zard great here is his unpredictability.
I always predict what a charizard does: dies easily.

Quote:
again, it's the fact that it can be effective using DD,
not at all. it takes it wayyyyyyyyyy to long to get at a good attack stat for sweeping.

Quote:
belly,
if that **** worked anymore.

Quote:
special set
with 3 MOVES! ONE OF WHICH IS HIDDEN POWER GRASS BECAUSE OF SWAMPERT. WOW, I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS!

Quote:
all at once
what the ****? I don't care what pokemon it is, no pokemon can sucessfully pull of multiple roles.

Quote:
that gives it a variety of moveset, hence unpredictablity.
predictability is not a bad thing always. you can tell that a Salamence is going to physical sweep you, but you still can't do **** about it. BTW, Mence has 4 usable roles: DDer, Choice Bander, Special sweeper, and Mixed sweeper. thats 1 more than charizard :/

Quote:
you just don't know whether it's going to DD up or belly drum or special sweep you. what if you bring out blissey thinking it's a special zard and instead it turns out to be a belly zard? what if you bring out swampert thinking it's a DD zard and it turns out to be a special zard with hp grass?
what if I send out Aerodactyl and KO it despite it's moveset?

Quote:
funny you bring out "blissey". blissey stops all special sweeperts, not just zard. just because there's "blissey" doesn't make charizard a lesser special sweepert.
it makes it lesser in general.

Quote:
there are 5 more pokemon on the team who can take care of blissey. charizard can special sweep with the best of them.
it can't it lacks the movepool and/or Sp.atk stat to do it.

Quote:
the dclaw-endure-dclaw combo won't work if blissey is not taken down already(doesn't take a genius to figure it out, DUH!). if you're gonna go there you might as well talk about tyranitar with sandstorm
lol sandstorm t-tar.

Quote:
or anything with fakeout/extremespeed/machpunch and the like that ruins any berry users, geez.

And charizard ohko or 2hko most things that are normal resistence, despite your stubborn-ness to believe me.
so can Typhlosion, who can get to that part faster due to Earthquake weak.

BTW, Suicune still says hi.

Quote:
and what do you mean most pokemon use hp grass? jolteon, zapdos, most of them still go with bolt beam. :/
ROCKS ARE NOT FUN TO LIVE UNDER KIDS.

Quote:
some of them use hp grass because it's an alternative, and why not? alternatives are good.
ROCKS RULE. BUT NOT FOR LIVING. SWAMPERT IS AWESOME.

[quote]what? charizard is faster than DD mence! if it has hp ice mence is OHKO before it can do anything.[quote]

SWAMPERT.

Quote:
same for swamp because it's even slower. hp grass it.

okay, here's your charizard:

[email protected] Berry
Hidden Power Grass
Hidden Power Ice
Dragon Dance
Belly Drum
Flamethrower
(moves and moves)

YOU KEEP LISTING MOVES AND MOVES AND MOVES AND **** POKEMON ONLY HAVE FOUR MOVES!

Quote:
i've killed too many swamps with my zard, don't even try to pretend that swamps don't get killed by zard.
good for ****ing you. I've killed Moltres with my Heracross. good for ****ing me.

Quote:
most of them actually take at ~13% damage from flamethrower coming in and zard just kills them with hp grass the next turn, it happens practically every other game.
Charizard takes 100% from about every rock slide.

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and fine, don't seek me out :S just don't be surprised if you run into a special zard that destroys your entire team next time you're on smogon.
if that were possible. I'm putting it under Sunkern sweep on my list of possibilities.

Quote:
i find it funny that even some of the best battlers like husk will take their time to fight "newbies" like me and give me pointers, but it's always the cocky arrogant ones who just talk the talk and too chicken to walk the walk. :/ suit yourself. you don't even sound like you've ever met a special zard since you even think swamps have a chance against it.
...what? why is swampert involved anyway? I just bring him us when you lack anything to counter him.

Quote:
and yes everybody knows what heracross can do, but perhaps only you can't do anything about it -_-;; heracross is a good pokemon but saying nobody can do anything about it is an overstatement. how hard is it to predict when you know the opponent's moveset?

and UU's have inferior stats, but their movesets are less familiar. some UU's allow for some unique and effective movesets. this quote is golden. the funny thing most UU's aren't standard. they'd surprise you.
RAMBLINGS THAT I WILL NOT CONCERN MYSELF WITH DUE TO THEIR RANDOMNESS.

Quote:
bellydrum works if you know how to use it at the right time :S it's not that hard, there are plenty of chances to do it. sub+belly also works because it activates salac. perhaps you're the noob if you don't even know how to use belly drum.

and even if charizard can't OHKO mence it can 2HKO it. if mence switches in a dragon claw it's good as gone because it's gone in the next turn.

and why do you bring out swamps when i say most pokemon still bolt beam? yeah most pokemon still bolt beam because there aren't many pokemon who are resistent to it. fact is bolt beamers destory salamence. swamps laugh in the face of bolt beamers but grass types laugh in the face of swampert -_- it's pointless.............. fact is you're pretending salamence doesn't have weakness and when i bring out he has a common weakness you bring out swamp... okay... yea swamp is bolt beam resistent but that doesn't change the fact for salamence. but if you're trying to make the point salamence + swamp makes a good team together then point taken, but charizard can also be paired with a pokemon resistent to water+tbolt+rockslide(could be swampert too, or venasaur).

your last couple sentences just proves that you still don't get my point. variety, and unpredictablity, is what makes charizard useful, the fact that you don't know what to expect from it. but i figure you'll never get it because you don't take me seriously. the fact that someone's arguing that a UU pokemon can be useful won't let you.
GOD QUIT REPEATING YOURSELF. YOU JUST RAMBLE ON ABOUT NOTHING.

Quote:
@ice demon, i'm not arguing charizard>mence(god forbid), i'm arguing that charizard has a wide enough movepool and enough effectiveness so that it can be used with multiple movesets hence making it a very unpredictable pokemon.
...and you make me repeat myself even, becuase you repeat yourself with your RAMBLING.

Quote:
charizard may not have as good stats but it can do what salamence does,
to less effectiveness do to worse stats.

Quote:
with the belly alternative, and using stab fire attacks. DD salamence needs a lot of sp.att ev's to OHKO skarms with fireblast, hence it doesn't have the ev's to go into its speed, that's why charizards are usually faster than it. most DD salamence also choose to have STAB with HP Fly and earthquake instead of rockslide. so yes, charizard does have a chance against DD salamence, especially with most people opting to DD on the first turn to try to get the speed advantage(and they figure with intimidate charizard can't possibly kill them with rockslide.. to their surprise the charizard uses Dclaw).
**** THIS ****! I CAN'T TAKE YOUR RAMBLING ANYMORE! YOU SAY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN! THE REDUNDANCY POLICE ARE EXHAUSTED THANKS TO YOU!

Quote:
no, they're right because salamence needs 212 ev's in sp.att inorder to have enough sp.attack to OHKO skarms with fire blast. such is because it doesn't get stab unlike charizard, hence charizard almost always have the speed advantage on salamence.
people stoped caring about OHKOing Skarmory a long time ago.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 13th, 2005 (3:21 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
what are you talking about??? what do you mean it can recover enough HP to take HP grass?? you mean with leftovers??? leftovers doesn't nearly recover enough HP for it to withstand a hp grass dude.

turn1
trainer withdraw certain pokemon weak to flamethrower, trainer puts in swampy
charizard uses flamethrower, swampy takes damage

turn2
charizard uses hp grass
swampy fainted

and there you have it. and no, flamethrower does enough damage to swampy that hp grass finishes it, even if swampy has lefties.
With the right evs, I'm sure it does. Nicpert also helps as Protect helps the healing process.

As far as Heat Wave vs. Flamethrower, Heat Wave only slightly has 2vs2 usefulness. I mean your trading 10% acc. for only 5% more power? At least trade 15% acc. for 25% in using Fire Blast.

Anyways, this is pointless. Salamence > Charizard. Period. No getting around that. You experience things from your battles that may make Charizard seem as good as sala, but that's just you. It's well-known every where of the fact that Sala > Char.
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Old October 13th, 2005 (9:20 PM).
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OK. Unpredictablility. So what? Suicune says hi with its free CM.
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Old October 14th, 2005 (4:05 AM).
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Espy Psyche Espy Psyche is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham
everyone knows what Heracross does. they often can't do **** about it anyway.

I can kill Cross easily. Just use Espy's speed to kill it. Cross is slow. Or use Flare/Blaze as a better salac sweeper.
if Charizard could OHKO Mence with it.
It doesn't need an OHKO. All it needs is a 2HKO because Mence will DD first.
25 char limit sucks. die limit die
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Old October 14th, 2005 (4:52 AM).
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Ham Ham is offline
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WOW! POKEMON KILLS POKEMON WITH MOVE! IT CAN'T BE LIKE AERODACTYL AND MEDICHAM EXIST NO SIR.

it also can't be that there could be pokemon OTHER than heracross.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 14th, 2005 (8:59 AM). Edited October 14th, 2005 by c_dog.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbreonShadow
With the right evs, I'm sure it does. Nicpert also helps as Protect helps the healing process.

As far as Heat Wave vs. Flamethrower, Heat Wave only slightly has 2vs2 usefulness. I mean your trading 10% acc. for only 5% more power? At least trade 15% acc. for 25% in using Fire Blast.

Anyways, this is pointless. Salamence > Charizard. Period. No getting around that. You experience things from your battles that may make Charizard seem as good as sala, but that's just you. It's well-known every where of the fact that Sala > Char.
apparently ham isn't the only one who can't read. i already said salamence > charizard, but charizard is a far more useful pokemon than ham gives it credit for.

and trust me, swamp doesn't live in that situation. obviously you've never seen a modest charizard up against a swampert. swamp dies, always, i kill swamps everyday.

and ham is too stubborn so he can go ahead and think he's all that. just don't come crying when his team got destroyed by a modest charizard.

4 moves, yes, but there are alternatives, and a charizard may have different sets. it's not just the 3, each 3 has hybrids and crossovers. chairzard is very very versatile.

oh and suicine should say hi to charizard.. heck it's a water type, a freaking water legend. i'll be ****ed if charizard can take down suicine. there are plenty of pokemon on the team who can cover suicine, pointing out suicine > charizard doesn't make charizard any less of a pokemon.

edit: sorry to the mods if i'm breaking any rules by saying this, but man, it's too bad ham doesn't seek out "noobs" because i know i'd ownzed him and i mean ownzed him on netbattle.
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Old October 14th, 2005 (9:11 AM).
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I've seen modest Char, and yes, swampy survives.
Either way this is pointless;
First you say Char > Sala. Easily proven wrong
then you say Char = Sala. I commend your effort, but still no.
So now your trying to take some middle ground and say we should give Char more credit.
Make up your mind if u will.

And how de we go from "Dragon Claw is overrated" to "Charizard vs. Salamence" anyway?
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Old October 14th, 2005 (9:16 AM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
well, charizard is a sentimental favorite of mine so that's why i use it. i could care less if kingdra can beat charizard(it's water vs. fire so it better win), but charizard does have its uses. the good thing about special zards are that people ALWAYS expect that DD one and so the special zard makes for a very nice surprise. if i were to use physical i like the bellyzard better anyway. charizard is weak, so if you're good enough to time a DD you might as well time a sub and then belly drum and then sweep. but like i said, i find special zard to be the most useful for my team's purposes anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ham
the good thing about charizard is that it makes Salamence look even better.

the funny thing is, you know how he kept rambling on about KOing this and sweeping that? never happened to me. I've been on NB for over a year and I have never seen anyone do any sort of "sweeping" with Charizard. hell, I barely see any "KOing."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 14th, 2005 (9:20 AM).
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lol, same, especially when most people using Charizard is actually always switching IN on sala, trying to KO with D. Claw.
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Old October 14th, 2005 (9:22 AM).
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ironically, the only people who I see using Charizard are newbs/n00bs.

HMMMMM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groudon80
i once was in double battle and constantly kept attacking myself but won anyway
that's why rating an In-game team is pointless :/
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Old October 14th, 2005 (9:09 PM).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UmbreonShadow
I've seen modest Char, and yes, swampy survives.
Either way this is pointless;
First you say Char > Sala. Easily proven wrong
then you say Char = Sala. I commend your effort, but still no.
So now your trying to take some middle ground and say we should give Char more credit.
Make up your mind if u will.

And how de we go from "Dragon Claw is overrated" to "Charizard vs. Salamence" anyway?
i dare you to find a quote where i said charizard > salamence. charizard > mence in versatility, and has the ability to beat it one on one, but salamence has intimidate, better stats making it the OU pokemon of choice, but charizard is in his own right very very good. that's what i've been saying all along. please find a quote where i said otherwise, that charizard >>> mence.

and no, swampy dies. swampy dies swampy dies. i've seen it only a million times. swampy is hit by flamethrower, not very effective, charizard uses hp grass, swampy faints. swampy takes about 10-13% damage from flamethrowers even after leftovers!! and that's supposedly "not very effective". hp grass just finishes it afterthat, i guarantee it.

and just because most people who use charizard are NOOBS say nothing about charizard as a pokemon. what sucks are the trainers, not charizard himself. the idea that a UU pokemon can be effective may be a little too much to bear for OU users who have little creativity and just mimic whatever's popular.
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Old October 15th, 2005 (3:37 AM).
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Salamence IS easily better than Charizard though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_dog
charizard > mence in versatility, and has the ability to beat it one on one,
If Salamence doesn't have as much of a movepool as Charizard, explain how Salamence has 4 sets that work well, yet Charizard has only 1 or 2?
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